Author Topic: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"  (Read 2829 times)

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Offline jpuke

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Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« on: October 26, 2006, 12:59:41 AM »
About a year ago my brother-in-law was out visiting and we went to the local gun shop because he wanted to look at "big" rifles.  I asked him what he wanted one for and he told me it'd be for mule deer or elk (he lives in UT, I live in NE).  I showed him a Tikka in 30-06 (it's what I have and love) but he wasn't interested - said he wanted one that "burned a lot of powder."  Last weekend he was back out visiting and promptly showed me his brand new Remington 700 in .300 Rem Ultra Mag and proclaimed that he got it to "be able to break an elk's shoulder at 1000 yards."  I know for a fact that the guy only shoots about twice a year, and ususally one of those times is with a heavy 22-250.  So we went out to shoot his gun, he grumbled about the fact that his cartridges were near $45 for 20, and he was extremely impressed with the muzzle blast and recoil.  My wife claims my disdain for his choice of rifle cartridge comes from jealousy but I tell her that isn't it - I just hate to see the ignorant buy gear and believe that it makes them some sort of super-hunter when they aren't willing to put in the time to practice.  My 30-06 does just fine despite its "trajectory that falls like a rock" as my brother-in-law claims.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2006, 01:13:12 AM »
You hit the nail on the head when you said, some guys don't put the time in to be able to shoot well.  No matter if it is a magnum or a standard round, practice is the key to successful shooting.
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Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2006, 01:28:05 AM »
All he has to do is become a good enough shot to consistently hit an elk's shoulder at 1000 yards, and, with the right bullet selection, the 300 RUM will break the elk's shoulder about as well as a 30-06 bullet at the same distance because they will be travelling at about the same velocity.  That's not too tall an order, is it? ;)
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Offline myarmor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2006, 01:45:54 AM »
There's no shame to be had owning an -06. Tried and true, surely with more game under it's belt than any 300 RUM. Cheaper rounds and less recoil = more practice time in. Same if you handload.
The 300 RUM is indeed a powerhouse, but I have no need for it...and it sounds like you don't either :)
You put it well, some guys buy a "Magnum" rifle and all of a sudden they just bought the title of "King Master Uber Hunter Of All Time"  ::)
Magnums have their place, but more often than not, it's not necessary.

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Offline Savage .250

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2006, 02:55:18 AM »
          1000 yards!  Some of this stuff makes me wonder, sorry guys.
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Offline dave hall

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2006, 03:43:13 AM »
What load is coming out of an 06' case that keeps up with the 300 RUM at a 1,000 yd..Did I read it wrong or is that what your saying,Dave.
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Offline technical fowl

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2006, 03:49:10 AM »
          1000 yards!  Some of this stuff makes me wonder, sorry guys.

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Offline nasem

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 04:47:04 AM »
I hate to say this, as a 300 RUM owner, but I see absoloutly no real reason the RUM line exists lol.
The ONLY justification for me to EVER use the 300 RUM is if I am going to practice with it A LOT, I mean over 100 rounds a month shooting at distances over 400 and 500 yards. 
But, for me:
I do not have access to 400 and 500 yard targets
nor Do I have the reloading equipment
nor does my shoulder wanna suffer from blasting 100 rounds a month
nor do I wanna wear out the barrel after a year of shooting and having to replace it for probebly $300-400.

By time you learn to shoot it at 400 and 500 yard distances, you'll probebly wear the barrel out lol.  Im actually looking to sell my remington 700 Police 300 rum, its a useless round

Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 07:57:55 AM »
At 1000 yards with a 180 grain bullet the difference in velocity is only about 100fps. Check it out with a ballistic calculator. The drop of both bullets will be about the same-- rather extreme.
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Offline skb2706

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2006, 09:57:08 AM »
MY guess is your BIL has other issues..............................

Offline jvs

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 10:22:34 AM »
Don't ever let your Brother-in-Law discover they make Howitzers.

Even though I don't believe in Magnums for every day use, this is where a Magnum would come in handy.  Certainly over 500 yds.  Except most hunting shots don't come close to that distance.
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Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 10:59:31 AM »
Tell your brother-in-law that his ambitions are misguided. If he wants to have a good, thorough, case of magnumitis he needs something bigger than .30 caliber. I recommend a .338 of some kind. The .340 Weatherby comes to mind. It'll still be as useless at 1000 yards as the 300 RUM.

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Offline jro45

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 12:31:37 PM »
I own both the 338 RUM and the 300 RUM I have shot the 300 RUM to 600 yds but not a 1000. The 338 RUM I have shot to 400 yds but not a 1000. In order to go that far I would need a lot more powerful scope then I have on them now.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2006, 12:36:04 PM »
At 1000 yards with a 180 grain bullet the difference in velocity is only about 100fps. Check it out with a ballistic calculator. The drop of both bullets will be about the same-- rather extreme.

Ran the numbers through my calculator and came up with these results:

Barnes Triple Shock @ .453 B.C.

.30-06 @ 2850fps
-335.5”
1253fps
627fpe

.300 RUM
-220.8”
1662fps
938fpe

Don’t know about you, but I’d prefer the RUM for elk at 1000 yards.  Not that I plan on any shots at near that range.
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Offline jpsmith1

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 02:55:04 PM »
Magnum-itis.  The worst possible disease because the first symptoms is a complete loss of reason and good sense.  My would-be brother in law got a 7 mag because, get this, he MISSED too many deer with his .30-30.  The reasoning then goes thusly, I miss with a little gun, so I'll get a big gun so that the bigger noise will kill the deer when I miss!!???

1000 yards is pure gun mag idiocy.  While theoretically possible and there are probably .01% of 1% of the shooters in the world who could pull it off with any degree of consistency.  The weekend-before-deer-season shooter hasn't got a prayer.
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Offline joshco84

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 03:36:24 PM »
i personally hunt with a 7mm rem mag for one main reason, that when i started hunting deer it was what was available in grandpa's gun cabinet.  and i have stuck with it for years now because it is the gun i started with and am used too.  it does no more or less damage than a 30 06 and actually uses a smaller bullet.  the recoil may be a bit more, but not too much.  i also am not a two time a year shooter, but my practice time is limited to say maybe four or five times a year and a box each time. but i do at least try to get out and get practice when i can, its just that the gun and range are about two hours away so its not real convenient.  i would say however on the topic of magnums that this would be as much "magnum" as you would want or need for deer, but if a 300 mag is available and thats all you have without buyin a new gun i say pick it up and practice and go kill a deer with it.  just my opinion though, hope i dont stir anything up
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 04:36:11 PM »
The term “Magnumitis”, at least to me, implies the “victim” has a lack of education and perhaps a distorted view of reality.  On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with using magnums.

It is true that Joe Average isn’t going to get much advantage by stepping up from, for example, a .308 Win to a .300 RUM.  With proper preparation, however, the .300 RUM does offer significant advantage to a limited number of hunters.

It is also not always true that a hunter who doesn’t shoot until a week before hunting season can’t take advantage of the magnums.  I was at the range a couple weeks ago with a fellow that hadn’t shot in 4 years.  At 300 yards the clay pigeons were “too easy” so we backed up to 500 where he proceeded to break two more in 4 shots.  At 600 yards he took one shot with the .300 Win Mag and rang the 18” steel gong.  The freshly painted gong showed his point of impact was nearly identical to mine – about 3” out at the 10:30 or 11:00 position.

While my primary big game rifle for 25 years was a 7mm Rem Mag, a couple years ago I finally got something I had wanted for some time – a .300 Win Mag.  Next on the list is a Ruger .375 when they become available next spring.  Magnumitis?  Nope, just want a .375 bolt gun to go with my .375 Marlin. 
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Offline Don Dick

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2006, 05:13:20 PM »
The problem with long range shooting of big game is they tend to not stay still waiting on the bullet to get to them. 

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Offline roper

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2006, 06:39:50 PM »
I don't own a 30-06 but have a 300RUM and with a 180gr bullet I'm over 3200fps.  I got the rifle last year and took an elk with it and  I also shoot a 30-338mag,300wsm,300wby and 300mag.  I look more to energy at setting my max yardage and I figure around 1000lbs for an elk rifle.  I consider the 300RUM marginal at 1000yds for elk mainly you have to get a high bullet BC to make up for not having the needed velocity.  Myself if I was looking for a 1000yd elk rifle I'd get a 30-378wby the one I was shooting with 180gr bullets velocity was 3481fps so you could shoot any bullet you wanted but you still need a pretty good bullet.
I use to play with the ballistic programs but since we all don't have the same programs and certain number can be plugged in favor of the poster .  If a hunter does any shooting at 500yds plus you can see some advantages shooting a 300RUM.  Since we have a 4pt restriction on bull elk here in Co in most units you need some good glass.   I figure a guy hunts to the conditions and shootable range that he is comfortable with and the same with what caliber he likes. 
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Offline jvs

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2006, 08:16:25 PM »
I have heard of these long Elk shots before from guys who buy hunts out west.  Having a Magnum in this instance is necessary because from what I hear, those Elk get skiddish after being shot at a few times, and getting closer than 1000 yards can be a challenge.

What I don't know is if most people who hunt Elk with Magnums can hit the Boiler Room at 1000 yards with any caliber.  From what I hear it isn't an easy shot to come up with a clean kill at those ranges.  Most guys like 500 to 600 yds for that.

A Magnum will not make your Brother-in-Law more likely to score an Elk.  Being able to find an Elk in the Scope at 1000 yards is the first challenge.  Without a Bullet Drop Compensator, normally, it's a miss. 
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Offline anweis

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2006, 02:32:53 AM »
If a hunter does any shooting at 500yds plus

That's the point. If a hunters shoots game at 500 yards and beyond he no longer is a hunter, he is an animal shooter. 
To be a hunter means to hunt, as in getting closer, following, waiting, stalking, etc. Hunting involves ethics and responsible behavior, and i don't see that in people who claim they can shoot at 500 yards or more and injure animals. What next? Have satelite controlled devices and shoot from the comfort of your truck 17 miles away?  I believe that many people misunderstand the purpose of the Magnum concept. Magnum cartridges were designed to kill bigger animals faster, with a flater trajectory, not at some insane distance.

The only good thing about 300 RUM is that it makes a 30-06 or a 6.5 feel like such nice calibers.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2006, 03:04:16 AM »
The problem with long range shooting of big game is they tend to not stay still waiting on the bullet to get to them. 



Time of Flight for 180g TSX @ .453 B.C.:
.300 RUM @ 3300fps
100yds = .094s
200yds = .195s
300yds = .303s
400yds = .419s
500yds = .542s
600yds = .679s
700yds = .824s
800yds = .982s
900yds = 1.156s
1000yds = 1.343s

Its quite true that movement can cause problems at long range.  Imagine an animal at 1000 yards that starts walking at 3mph (about the same speed as a human) at the moment the bullet leaves the muzzle of the .300 RUM.  The animal will move about 5.9 feet before the bullet arrives.

The truth of the matter, however, is that animals at such distances are rarely alerted by the hunter.  Unless something else is spooking them, it is often fairly easy to watch them and select an opportunity to shoot while they are standing motionless for several or even many seconds.  Indeed, the difference between the 1000-yard shot and the 400-yard shot is less than one second TOF.

I’m not suggesting we all go out and try our luck at 1000 yards, but other factors, like wind and accuracy of the hunter/rifle combo, usually will play a larger part in the success or failure of the shot if the hunter observes the animal and selects his timing accordingly.
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Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2006, 04:04:29 AM »
Coyote Hunter:

The 3300fps assumption may explain the difference in trajectory. I assumed 3100, as shown in Hodgdon data.  I used http://www.handloads.com/calc/ and got
30-06 @2750fps with 180gr .453BC goes 1200fps with 428" drop and 102" drift in 10mph wind.
30-06 @2750fps with 180gr Nosler Accubond at .507BC goes 1308fps with 396" drop and 87" 10mph wind drift

300RUM @3100fps with 180gr .453BC goes 1371 with 328" drop and 86" 10mph wind drift
300RUM @3300fps with 180gr .453BC goes 1481 with 285" drop and 79" 10mph wind drift
300RUM @3200fps with 180grain Nosler Accubond .507BC goes 1568 with 283" drop and 70" 10mph wind drift.

So you're right. Small changes in assumption about velocity make a big difference at that range.

I don't see the difference as being significant for hunting purposes because the variables are so wild that nobody but an idiot would attempt such a shot.

I like the higher velocity of cartridges like the RUM because they can make a good 300 yard elk gun because they can push that heavy 180 grain bullet so that a shot aimed at the center of the lung area will hit with no holdover out to 300 yards if the gun is sighted in at about 200 yards. I think that's where they're real value is.

Gosh I love this kind of talk!
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2006, 04:11:48 AM »
JVS, just to jack this thread for a moment: If I paid for a guided hunt and the guide couldn't get me closer than 1000 yards to an elk, I'd be wanting my money back. 

Okay, you'll can go back to your magnum bashing now.   ;D

Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2006, 05:39:40 AM »
I have one of the original magnums: the .270 Winchester. It gives me the extra velocity I wanted for a 300 yard deer gun, but without the recoil of a 300 magnum.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2006, 06:44:50 AM »
That's the point. If a hunters shoots game at 500 yards and beyond he no longer is a hunter, he is an animal shooter.



Applying your own experience and ability – or lack thereof – to all other hunters and situations is illogical and usually results in a predictable outcome – illogical conclusions.

It is true that ANY hunter who shoots an animal is an "animal shooter", regardless of the range.  Range alone, however, does not determine whether or not the shooter is also a "hunter".

Quote from: anweis
To be a hunter means to hunt, as in getting closer, following, waiting, stalking, etc.

There are many situation in which hunters find "getting closer" impossible and must make a decision whether or not to shoot.  Many factors that are beyond the control of the hunter can come into play to prevent "getting closer", including changing weather conditions, animal movement, property and game management boundaries, time (season end dates, shooting hours,etc.), the presence and actions of other hunters, features of the terrain and many others.

While I applaud the notion of getting as close as conditions reasonably allow, sometimes the situation is such that the range is still over what we would prefer.  The key is preparation.  Some folks shoot better at 500 yards and beyond than others do at 100.  To give a pass to the latter while condemning the former, solely on the basis of the range involved, is nutso.

Quote from: anweis
Hunting involves ethics and responsible behavior, and i don't see that in people who claim they can shoot at 500 yards or more and injure animals.

There are a fair number of hunters who spend long hours preparing themselves and their equipment for long shots.  To such people, 500 yards is not necessarily a long range, unethical or irresponsible.

If you want examples of unethical and irresponsible behavior, I can provide far too many, all involving "hunters" at ranges under 300 yards and many at ranges of about 100 yards.  Range alone does not determine whether a shot is ethical or responsible.

IMHO, what constitues unethical and irresponsible behavior is taking shots at game at ranges for which the shooter is unprepared and has no reasonable chance of making.  For some "hunters" and situations that is 100 yards (and less, based on the number of misses at such ranges), for others it is well over 500.

Quote from: anweis
What next? Have satelite controlled devices and shoot from the comfort of your truck 17 miles away? 


Some enterprising individual attempted to set up an internet hunting site.  I don't know what happened to it but the concept was that you use a robot-controlled rifle and a camera-based aiming system.  In theory you could have hunted from the moon and beyond.  17 miles isn't so very far...

Quote from: anweis
I believe that many people misunderstand the purpose of the Magnum concept. Magnum cartridges were designed to kill bigger animals faster, with a flater trajectory, not at some insane distance.

500 yards is hardly an "insane" distance to the prepared individual and a flat trajectory is usually not very important when hunting the really big stuff - bullet diameter, weight and energy are generally considered much more important.  Heck, in Africa a .30 isn't even legal for the big stuff in many areas.  I think you'll find that many people would agree that a primary reason for the magnums is indeed to extend the range compared to the non-magnum cartridges.  If we were all to limit our shots to 100 yards, a .30-30 would do nicely for almost every situation.  Reaching out a bit further, to say 350 yards, a ..308 or 30-06 will usually suffice.  Beyond that, I'm reaching for my .300 Winnie.

Quote from: anweis
The only good thing about 300 RUM is that it makes a 30-06 or a 6.5 feel like such nice calibers.

Not the "only" thing, but it does make the others seem tame in comparison.

 

 
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Offline Questor

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2006, 07:50:17 AM »
I agree with Coyote Hunter's most recent post. I know guys who live out West that are perfectly competent to shoot game in windy conditions at 600 yards with .270Win and 7mm Remington-class rifles. These people practice and they can place their shots well, consistently, and without worry. If the conditions are such that they can't make a shot, they know that too and they don't shoot.

Funniest hunting ethics story I've read in a while came from Jack Atcheson's book and it was about an Eastern hunter who had some high minded ethical ideas about hunting. He got an opportunity to take a bedded bull elk and Jack was looking at the elk and expecting to hear the hunter's shot momentarily. Instead he heard the sound of a loud police whistle. The Easterner thought that it would be unsporting to take a bedded animal and he blew the whistle to to make the animal stand up. The guy didn't get a shot, and did not get any more opportunities for the rest of the hunt. Obviously this was a memorable and exasperating experience for the guide.
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Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 04:07:36 PM »
"So you're right. Small changes in assumption about velocity make a big difference at that range."

Another assumption, and one that is likely incorrect, is that a proficient LR hunter would use a 180gr bullet for 1,000 yd shooting with a 300 RUM. Most of the LR guys use the heaviest (higest BC) bullets possible for that type of shooting. You need lots of case capacity to propel heavy bullets for LR shooting.

Plug a 240SMK bullet into the comparison and see what you get.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2006, 05:03:47 PM »
Coyote Hunter:

The 3300fps assumption may explain the difference in trajectory. I assumed 3100, ...

So you're right. Small changes in assumption about velocity make a big difference at that range.

I don't see the difference as being significant for hunting purposes because the variables are so wild that nobody but an idiot would attempt such a shot....

I grabbed the 3300 out of the Hornady 5th.  Barnes #3 goes 3359 the X and hits  3400 with the XLC.  Its all academic to me, however, as I’ll never take a 1,000 yard poke at anything living.  In 25 years 350 is as far as I’ve gone for big game (that shot  resulted in a pass-through and a 5x6 dropping in its tracks).  These days I would consider further but only because I’ve spent more time practicing at 400, which is the limit of my rangefinder.

Like you, I find the the variables problematic at longer ranges anyway.
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Offline HuntingGuy

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Re: Brother-in-law suffering from "magnum-itis"
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2006, 05:51:33 PM »
I dont have time to read all the replies.. But like you mentioned, your 30-06's limit is the sky.  Gotta love it.  I have an A-Bolt chambered in .06, never fails.
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