New 44 mag Handi Rifle and Range report

[Wolfgang]

Hello All,

I'm new here and I've lurked about for a while and thought I would join up.  This is my first post.  Now on to my new rifle.  I just picked up a new 44mag Handi Rifle with a laminated stock.  I just got a chance to take it out to the range today and try it out with a few hand loads.  I have to say that the results were disappointing.  There were few loads that seemed to want to group ok but none of them delivered what I would consider rifle type accuracy. 

The loads were mostly assembled with Hornady XTP's ranging from 180 grains to 240 grains and all of them were ahead of healthy doses of H110, Winchester 296 and I also tried out some Blue Dot and 2400.  They ranged in speed from 1450fps-1600fps for the 240's on up to around 2100fps for the 180's this was over the chrono at about 12ft. from the muzzle.  I also loaded up a handfull of 250gr. Keith Style LSWC that I cast these were pushed by Unique to around 1350fps or so. 

The 240gr XTP's with a stout charge of 296 seemed to want to shoot and the 250gr. LSWC shot fairly well but again nothing like I would consider to be the accuracy that a rifle should deliver.  The best I could manage at 75 yards was a 2 3/4" group with the 240 XTP and 296. 

The rifle has the Micro Groove type rifling and locks up nice and tight.  Am I expecting too much out of it?  Are there any other 44 Mag Handi shooters who have been able to iron out such difficulties?  Thanks for listening and if any of you guys have any advice it would be very welcomed. 

Thanks Again,

Wolfgang

[quickdtoo]

Welcome aboard! The .44mag Handi suffers from an oversize bore and a slow 1:38" rate of twist, the combination can be frustrating. Hopefully someone that has some experience with it will post their good loads, I've got 26 complete rifles and 5 extra barrels, the 44mag isn't one of them due to the problems it has (and the fact that I have three .45-70s has a lot to do with that too ). But there are those here that have found good shooting combinations, there are also some here that sold them because they didn't shoot good. If the search was working, you could find lots of posts on the 44mag, but it isn't working so the only way to find em, is to go thru each page looking for posts.

I will say that everyone that has rechambered to 445Supermag has been very happy with the results, the extra powder capacity can really make a difference from all reports. Cast bullet shooters find .432" bullets to shoot well.

Tim

[myarmor]

Welcome to GraybeardOutdoors. It's a shame that many 44Mags are overbored, and as Tim said this might just be the culprit to your issues. Mine shot Magtech 200gr JHP great, but I believe mine was an older barrel within specs. Though honestly I never slugged the barrel.
 It's a great caliber and a ton of fun to shoot in a Handi, it's sad this issue is not given more attention too by NEF/H&R. They say it's with in specs to their satisification....but a couple thousands is a mile in size when dealing with such small measurments and in firearms.
Anyone else wonder why the 44Mag is the only caliber or barrel to really suffer from this??
-Aaron

[Ditchdigger]

When mine was still a 44 mag.it like the 300 gr.XTP's seated in the 2nd channelure,and a max charge of H 110. They went through the chrono at 1666 fps. I could be wrong but I think the load was 22.5 grs. of H 110 (max load for revolver Speer no. 12 ) and it was the max load.You might try working up to this load.   Digger

[quickdtoo]

The Hornady 6th shows a max load of H110 with the 300gr XTP as 18.4gr in their rifle data, and 19.8gr in their handgun data. COL is 1.6" for both. The Hodgdon Annual shows 19gr max for both, COL is also 1.6".

Tim

[Datil]

Hrllo Wolfgang, Welcome to the forums here.
 I am one that has had troubles with 44 mag barrel.
 I gave up on it. I think that is only one I couldn't make
 shoot reasonble well. Regards Marv.

[Swampman]

Seems like cast bullets that hadn't been sized might work better.  The .44 barrel that Brian Pearce tested in Rifle magazine sounded like it shot pretty well.  Your Handi sounds about as accurate as most of the .44 magnum lever guns I've owned.

[Ranger J]

I have had a love/hate relationship with my .44 mag.  I love the cartridge and the idea of a single shot rifle for it but hate the accuracy I get with the Handi.  As other have said the combo of oversize bore (mine is 432) and slow twist make finding that ‘magic combo’ that shoots like you would like it to may be mission impossible.  I have about given up on mine, as Hornady xtps seem to be the only bullet that will even approach acceptable accuracy in mine.  The best results I have got is with 180G XTPs over a heavy load of H110.  300G xtps don’t do too badly but I always seem to get more than my share of flyers.  If I weren’t such a ‘bubba’ working on guns I would try the 445 conversion but as I have a good shooting 45/70 it is probably not worth the expense. I have gone through thousands of rounds and I don’t know how many different combos of powder and jacketed and cast bullets in every size I can get a hold of and am satisfied only with the 180 XTPs.  On the other hand my Deerfield will shoot accurately everything that is able to work the mechanism.  With 240 G SPs it is a great little deer gun.  Lots of luck with your .44 I am afraid you might need it.
RJ

[Wolfgang]

Well guys, I asked for suggestions and like many things in life don't ask if you are prepared to listen to the answers!  What dismal reports.  I'm glad to hear that it is not just me being inept.  Now that I have been told what the problems may be I at least have a starting point.  I am not sure about the bore size so I guess I'll have to slug it.  If it turns out that it is over bore then I may have to see what my moulds will drop the bullets at prior to sizing.  I guess if they drop larger than .431 I could lube them up with Lee Alox and see how they shoot.

I have heard that the Micro Groove rifling does not shoot cast bullets well though since the rifling is so shallow.  Maybe if they are not pushed too hard that won't be such a problem.  I'm curious as to where I could possibly get oversized cast bullets to try out as I'm not sure what my moulds drop them at.  I do know that the bullets don't seem to be sized all that much when they are run through the sizer.  I would like to use this thing at ranges over 25 yards so I guess that the quest will continue.

And to Quick, what does reaming the thing out to 445 supermag do other than give you more powder space?  I'm curious as you would still shoot the same bullets and still have the over bore issue to contend with.  I don't need a still faster shooting inaccurate 44 caliber rifle!  The only thing I can think of is that the extra kick in the pants might help to bump the bullet up to bore diameter?  Am I on track with this line of thinking or way off base?  At any rate, thank you all for listening and keep the replies coming.  Hopefully there is someone who has hit on the magic number to help solve this before I go broke buying powder, primers and high dollar bullets! 

Best,

Wolfgang

[Ditchdigger]

Wolfgang,there's several that have gotten 1 1/2" groups with the larger bullets. The 265 gr.Hornady,300gr. XTP,and some use the 270gr. Goldots. The 445 super mag.will get you 1975 fps with the 300gr.bullets,the 265gr.bullet will do 2160 fps. and the 240 will do 2250 fps. with near max loads. The chamber of the handi's is .006" oversized and some swelling will occur above the web. There's been about 12 of these rechamber's done and everone like the cartridge.  Quick was right about  the rifle loads and tha handgun loads,they are different.     Digger

[safetysheriff]

if you go with cast bullets i'd only use them in a micro-groove if they've got gas checks.....to help with gripping that shallow rifling.     i'd recommend a relatively soft alloy with them, too, so the bullet will obturate to fill in the bore......... so the powder gases don't blow past the bullet and cause leading.   a little search of bullet and mold vendors should get you what you need.

i would not cut back on the velocity if you follow the suggestions above.   i'd just get the right brinnell hardness in the bullet whether yours or from a mfr'.

let us know how you do, please,

ss'   

[quickdtoo]

Wolfgang, I"ll leave the particulars on the .445SM to those that have em, like I said, I don't have one, just passing info that has been shared here. One of our members, DRinks,  recently rented a reamer from 4D, other than that, most did theirs last year sometime and as Digger said, they were all happy with the results. If I were to find a bargain barrel, I'd probably buy it and ream it myself, I've throated 2 Handis so far, the hand rechamber doesn't sound much more difficult from everyone's report.

Tim

[JPH45]

I shot a 44 Mag for over a year and was well pleased with it. The "slow 1:38 twist" is a myth. It readily stabilized anything I shot through it once I resolved the over size bore issue. Mine was a .432 bore and shot the Speer 270 Gold Dot and 300 XTP beter than very well. I used H110 with both but was also very fond of AA1680 even though I gave up some velocity doing so. The accuracy more than made up for the speed. The 44 kills through simple blood loss, poking a big hole. a 200 fps diference in velocity won't matter one whit. I killed 5 deer with mine using bullets ranging from 265 grains to 300 grains at speeds of 1275-1575 fps. Anything in 125 yards was in trouble. Those same loads were a death ray on beaver.

Slug your bore, slug your bore, slug your bore. Get bullets that match or at .001"-.002" over size. You are also likely to find that lead bullets of 12-15BHN will shoot better than lead bullets of 18-21 BHN. I know that goes against todays conventional wisdom, but after firing over 2000 rounds through mine I can assure you it is true. I found the same to be true with my 38-55. Blue Dot is an exellent 44 powder and 12 grians will give you right at 1300 fps with a 250-265 grain bullet. I fired quite a few hundred of those and killed three deer with such a load. Keep working at it, but before going any further with lead bullets, slug the bore, get something that fits, and make it soft. Simple air cooled wheel weight is as perfect as is possible to have.

Did I mention slug your bore?

Good Luck, JP 

PS, I forgot to add, Ditchdigger is right, 22.5 grains of H110 nad the 300 XTP will yeild circa 1600 fps. The bullet is seated to the first cannalure from the base, this allows for the extra case capacity. The throat on the 44 Handi is pleny generous to allow for the extra cartridge length.

[Wolfgang]

Thanks All,

I will slug the bore over the weekend and hopefully be able to put some of your suggestions into practice.  Maybe I can get it to shoot like the one in Brians article that Quick sent.   By the way thank you for the article and I obviously got it.

Best,
Wolfgang

[OBXPilgrim]

Occasionally there are some folks that get together and order special cast bullet molds from Lee for problems just like this type of problem. 

I know of one group that has plans to order a .434" 290gr gas-check 44Mag/444 6-bullet mold, as soon as they get enough interested.  I think Lee wants a 25 mold minimum or else they charge an extra set up fee. 

The "Group Buy" special molds are running around $60, but it might be just the ticket.

[RonO777]

This is five shots out of my 44mag. I was useing WWB 240gr.
I havent been able to get a handload that it likes better than WWB ammo.
The high one was my fault.
Ron

[Wolfgang]

Hello again,

Unfortunately I have been unable to get anything done for the past several days.  I hate it when work interferes with my hobbies!  I will be stuck working until next Friday too.  Hopefully I can get the bore slugged and a few rounds built as well as putting an O ring in the forearm in the evening time after work.  I have to take my officer's out to the range for their fall qualification at the end of the month so hopefully there will be a little down time that I can shoot the rifle again in between strings of handgun shooters.  I want to thank you all again for your advise and suggestions and I'll let you know how the next round at the range turns out.  Maybe if it works out well I can tryout my wife's shiney new digital camera and post some pic's with the gun and a really nice group!

Best,

Wolfgang

[lik2hunt]

Reaming to 445 SuperMag cleans up and aligns the chamber for one thing. Many who reamed the .357 to Max have stated that better goups were the result with the Mag ammo after the ream. I never shot my 44 before taking it to a 445 but I know that the SuperMag loads that Digger is loading for me are shooting about MOA at 100. (30.5 gr.  W296 - 265 Hornady bullet). The reamer that we all used may still be available but that member is no longer at GBO.
Haywire Haywood, I believe  , toyed with his 44 Mag for over a year before he got a load that he was satisfied with.

Edited to add that my 445 shoots better with a 2" by 3/4" piece of refrigerator card type magnet placed under the barrel inside the forearm about 1 1/2" in front of the barrel lug. Works better than the o-ring trick.

[Wolfgang]

Back again,

Well I have managed to get a couple of things done since I last posted.  I did slug the barrel and it is like many have said, .432 (sigh), I checked some of my different cast bullets and they were all sized to .431 and I have not had time as of yet to fire up the pot to cast a few more to see what they drop from the mould at.  I did get some "O" rings to try out and installed on of those.  Other interesting things that have come along have been changing the scope.  I did have a Bushnell 3x9 that I had installed on one of the Weaver bases.  I didn't much care for the scope which is why it wasn't on anything else but it was there so I set it on the Handi with a set of medium high rings which I also had on hand.  Worked but did'nt like it.  While at the range getting my officer's through their fall qualification I stopped into my friends shop (Gunshop at the range go figure) and picked up another Mueller 3x9 sport dot like I have sitting on my muzzle loader.  Tried putting that one on and discovered that I needed taller rings as the hammer wouldn't clear the eye piece bell.  Ended up sending my wife to the store to pick up a set of extra high rings as the scope still wouldn't fit with standared high rings.  While she was there she got me a hammer extension as well.  (Good wife! )  That's where I am right now and I loaded some more up in hopes of getting to shoot on Friday.  Loaded up some of the 300gr. XTP's as well to try those out.  Digger, I noticed that the Hodgdon manual showed a max load for the 300gr. XTP's at a somewhat lower charge than what you had said.  The Speer manual bumped that up a bit but was showing a different bullet and it was probably sized at .429 instead of .430.  I'll have to work up slowly and see what happens.  At any rate the quest continues and I'll post my findings when I get to go back to the range.

Best,
Wolfgang

[JPH45]

I realize this will go against everything you've ever read about reloading, but load the 300 XTP up with the max charge that Speer lists and the bullet seated to the first cannalure from the base (longest overall length). Lots of us have been shooting this combination for the last three years with no ill effects to gun or shooter. The Handi is plenty strong for any over pressure that may result, but I doubt there is any, no one has ever reported gross flattened primers, bright marks on the case head, or other over pressure signs.

.432 isn't grossly over, check with a couple of cast bullet makers about oversize bullets, I'm sure some have molds or sizing that can fit your needs.

[Ranger J]

I see you have about made the rounds with your 44.  Yours slugs out at .432 just as mine and a lot of others do.  I got my 44 with the idea of having a .44 that would be cheap and fun to shoot.  I already had a Deerfield that shoots 240g SP great.  I had in mind something that would perhaps shoot cast bullets with low charges.  My first indication that something that something was wrong was when I tried some of those same 240 SPs that shot so well in the Deerfield.  They were all over the place.  I was lucky to keep them in a 6-inch group at 50 yards.  I slugged the barrel, .423 so I sent for some .423 bullets from Beartooth and loaded them with eight or ten different powders with different burning rates.  I tried both heavy loads and light loads.  The only load that showed any hope at all was a light load of AA#2.  Even if these bullets shot good the price with the shipping made them way too expensive for what I wanted the gun for.  I tried LaserCast bullets, which were .431 in two weights, nothing worked.  I found one load that shot really well.  That was a 180G Hornady bullet with a heavy load of H110.  Again as these bullets were more expensive than what I wanted and I thought maybe with the slow twist the gun would shoot 180G cast bullets well.  I ordered 500 LaserCast at that weight.  Again with every load I tried they were all over the palace.  Just for giggles and grins I will try the trick with the Hornady 300G bullets but even if that works it will still not give me a fun gun that shoots both accurately and cheaply.  Yes I tried the O-ring thing; I shot the gun with the forearm tight and loose.  I rested it here and then there, nothing works.  I don’t think we are going to see too many happy .44 mag owners until NEF puts out a barrel that matches someone else’s specs beside what they arbitrary set for themselves.  How many of you would like a .44 mag barrel with a .429 bore with a 1in 20 twist?  Even though I am probably getting out of the Handi rifle business I would be tempted to get one of those.
RJ

[Wolfgang]

Back Again,

Got a chance to get out to the range and try out a few of the loads that I had worked up.  Nothing that was spectacular but there were a couple that turned in an acceptable performance.  I used near max charges of H4227 with all weights of XTP's from 180 to 300. Dosn't like H4227 accept for one which was a 250gr. Keith LSWC that I cast.  That load was 22gr. of H4227 and turned in a group of about 1 3/4" at 75 yards.  Then I tried out the same bullet weights with near and at max charges of H110.  The 180's turned in a pretty good group at around 2".  The 200's the gun didn't like and same for the 240's.  The 300's with the max load that Digger had provided tied the 250 LSWC for best group again about 1 3/4" at 75 yards.  I also had a few 180's that I had left over from another project that were loaded with a stout dose of 296 and that one turned in a sub 2" group as well.  Not really anything to brag about but a whole lot better than before.  Thanks to all that have tried to help with this project and I will keep trying to get something a bit better but in all if I can keep the groups under 2" at 100 yards I'll be satisfied.

Thanks again to everyone,

Wolfgang
 

[Ditchdigger]

I think if you'll try a bipod on the front,and the buttstock on a rock solid bag you'll see alot more accurate shooting.Just hang onto the bipod with your left hand and that setup really works for me.  Digger

[lik2hunt]

My barrel is a much older one than most of the ones that were rechambered here recently. I was able to get a brand new gun that was a "K" making it a '96 gun I think.    Still it was NIB tho. Anyway, never have slugged the bore, but mine (445 SM) loves the 265 Hornadys over 30.5 grains W296, Digger's special load for mine. It will print MOA at 100. Never have even shot a regular 44Mag round thru it.  I have a Simmons Aetec 2.8-10x44 on it with cinnamon laminated stocks and the frig magnet trick I mentioned earlier. I must be one of the lucky ones I guess, no problems here. Maybe the older barrels had a tighter bore.

Edited for clarification of calibers.

[RemingtonMagnum]

Welcome aboard! The .44mag Handi suffers from an oversize bore and a slow 1:38" rate of twist, the combination can be frustrating. Hopefully someone that has some experience with it will post their good loads, I've got 26 complete rifles and 5 extra barrels, the 44mag isn't one of them due to the problems it has (and the fact that I have three .45-70s has a lot to do with that too ). But there are those here that have found good shooting combinations, there are also some here that sold them because they didn't shoot good. If the search was working, you could find lots of posts on the 44mag, but it isn't working so the only way to find em, is to go thru each page looking for posts.

I will say that everyone that has rechambered to 445Supermag has been very happy with the results, the extra powder capacity can really make a difference from all reports. Cast bullet shooters find .432" bullets to shoot well.

Tim

If the 44 mag barrels are over bore barrel? What is the measurements of these over bore barrels???

Don

[quickdtoo]

Don, the only way to know what the bore size is, is to slug it with a #8 lead egg sinker. Those that have done so usuallly find a bore of .431" so they need cast bullets of .432" to shoot well. Beartooth offers a 250gr .432" bullet, I'm pretty sure it'sthe  one that works well, and BT just happens to have em on sale with free shipping!

Tim

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm?category=37

[bajabill]

just got mine from the factory,   it measures  .430

hopefully I have less issues with it than some others have described

[RemingtonMagnum]

After some research I found the unknown. I forget sometimes that the cal is not always the size. .. Of actual measurement.

Don

[quickdtoo]

just got mine from the factory, it measures .430

hopefully I have less issues with it than some others have described

That's encouraging, maybe they finally got a handle on the overbore problem. Have you checked the twist rate, Bill?

Thx,

Tim

[Wolfgang]

Hello Again,

Got to the range again and found a really good shooting load.  Sub 1 inch at 75 yards .  Now the bad news, I had these left over from something I had been reloading for and the load was 25gr. of W296 with a WLP primer and 180gr. XTP.  I was all happy then I checked the current loading data from the Winchester web site and found that I was a full 4 grains of powder under their recommended starting load.  Not sure where I got this data from when I did load these up since it was several years ago.  Question, since the load shot so well and there seemed to be no ill effects do you guys think that it would be safe to keep the load.  It chonographed in the mid 1700fps range.  Thanks for your input.

Best,

Wolfgang