Author Topic: H&R Ultra Hunter .308 Accuracy problems (Read 4231 times)

northjdr · « **Reply #30 on:** October 31, 2006, 05:58:09 AM »

An update and new concern. I tested the 150gr Fed Fusions agianst 150gr. Win power points. The !50 gr. Win PP's win. I couldn't get the Fusions to group under 2.5"@100yard The Winchesters were averaging between 1.5 to 2.00". Here is my new concern. After about 20 rounds, I did a pretty good cleaning, I then wanted to shoot a couple of fouling shots and leave the rifle until I shot deer with it. Well both of my shots after cleaning were about 4" low and 4"left. I stopped after 2 shots, figuring that perhaps I had left some gunk in the barrel. I went home, cleaned, decoppered, carefully, latch was cleaned. I went back to range. Two more groups continued to print about 4" low and left. I adjusted scope and put 2 shots within 1/4" of bull. What would cause such a large instant group shift? My scope is tight, my rail is bedded and tight. I am afraid that my point of impact might suddly shift back up. Any ideas. My scope (New Nikon Monarch wi BDC reticle) seems to respond predictably when I am making other adjustments. I have not done any return-to zero testing with it though.

Dave Allen · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:23:40 AM »

norhtjdr...i don't know much on handi's...one thing i do is shoot group's one day & semi zero the scope...then complete final sighting in on another day...on my final zeroin'g i allow for lot's of barrel cool off...maybe up to 1/2 hour...i want my zero on the coldest barrel possable...hope this help's...

Dave Allen · « **Reply #32 on:** October 31, 2006, 02:53:37 PM »

northjdr..i was thinking some more...you shot 20 round's then cleaned...shot round's probably from a different box of ammo ?? i imagine so as factory is usually avalaible in 20 rounder's...i have found inconsistancy in factory load's...you will find the more you shoot...the more it drive's you nut's !!..therefore you will become a reloader at some point...to eliminate the inconsistancy's...IMHO the new box ?? could have a different P.O.I. ?? if a guy was to stock up on factory stuff it might not be a bad idea..to get a few boxe's "preferably" from the same lot number..."MAYBE" to help eliminate that factor ?? again it seem's you are close ?? FWY...i have went through this with bolt gun's it just happen's...maybe the handi is teaching you ?? & me ?? lesson's...

northjdr · « **Reply #33 on:** October 31, 2006, 03:12:06 PM »

Thats a good idea, but unfortunately or fortunatley. I had 4 boxes of ammo all from the same lot and I was in the middle of a box. I agree with you regarding the cold shot though. I will following that advice. My bolt action didn't seem to be nearly as finicky. But I've got to confess that I've enjoyed the learning process. I have learned much more about shooting and my Ultra by not having things go as planned. As long as i drop a whitetail or 2 this weekend I won't care. Thanks for the input Dave.

Dave Allen · « **Reply #34 on:** October 31, 2006, 03:37:32 PM »

northjdr..your welcome...i went thru this two year's ago when i bought a new remmy 700 in 223..never could get anything consistant...took it to a gunsmith had the action bedded..muzzle crowned..trigger adjusted to 3 lb's..didn't change a thing...THEN...i started handloading a year ago..WOW..then thing's changed..i'm sure the work on the gun didn't hurt either...my 22-250 handi for example is shooting consistant group's 1 1/4 or less with handload's...i'm thrilled especially in a $220..hunting gun.....i only have about 70...reload's down the tube with pretty consistant group's...i started shooting off a bench about 3 1/2 year's ago...shooting factory in 308..257 robert's..30/30 lever gun..the 30/30 isn't good @ the bench of course...BOTTOM line never got the result's i wanted...i do think a guy can get a good factory gun...that shoot's good wth factory ammo...maybe every so often

just my thought's...GOOD LUCK...

northjdr · « **Reply #35 on:** November 26, 2006, 04:39:51 AM »

An update is in order. 1st, no deer this year. I didn't get a shot so no chance to see how the 308 would perform. I still can't get this 308 to group well. (still averaging about 2" or slighly more @ 100yds. I recently silcone bedded the foreend. At the range I got several 5 shot groups with 3shots within and inch 2 shots about 2 inches higher. Some suggested that the tendency to 2 distinct groupings might could be scope/ring movement issues or fallty scope. I have a new Nikon Monarch 3x9. I lapped and remounted the scope rail last night. I did notice that the screw on the end was not seated as deep and turned easily on removal. There was alot of thread lock in the bottem of the hole. I cleaned all the holes after lapping and when remounting the screw(blue loctite) did go deeper. One of the things I haven't mentioned is that I continue to get alot of copper fouling even after just a few shots. This after breaking in the gun (single shots, clean, repeat 10 times) 3 shots clean (repeat 3 time). I now have about 350 rounds through the gun. I used Iosso paste bore cleaner a while back. Is there a way I can get this barrel smoother and less prone to fouling? Oh, on a final note. My reloading equipment is on the way so I'll soon join those ranks. I hope that by reloading I can increase the accuacy. I want a great whitetail load and also an explosive and accurate long range prairie dog load. Thanks again

ThudThumper · « **Reply #36 on:** November 26, 2006, 10:23:12 AM »

i hate that you weren't able to get a deer this season.

i'm not an expert on 30 cal handi's by any means, but you said that you clean religiously...and you've mentioned scrubbing the bore many, many times. maybe you're cleaning too much? like you said, you need fouling shots for the barrel to "set" and start grouping consistently, but maybe your rifle requires more fouling shots than you think.

like i said, i'm unfamiliar with .308 handi's, but i do own an ultra varmint chambered in .223. it's darn accurate; i've shot 0.6" @ 100 yds and i know it's capable of better. i definitely don't clean it after every range session; i generally only clean it after i've shot 80-100 rounds. i do, however, run a lightly oiled patch through it every time i use it to protect the bore from rust.

also, i've never had to rezero it between range sessions. if you're curious, i use a swift premier 4-12x40 scope with cheap aluminum rings (leupold, i think...$15 from walmart), and i never removed and remounted the weaver rail. i also shoot off a bipod, and i've never had any issue with it flexing my (synthetic) stock and barrel.

hope you have a bit more luck with your handi in the future. i've been thinking about buying one in .308 or 30-06 for some time now because i love my g-hog rifle so much.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #37 on:** November 26, 2006, 11:45:54 AM »

TT has a good point, lots of rifles don't shoot well clean, but put a little fouling in the bore and they shoot very good. I know lots of old timers that never clean their bores well....ever!! My dad was one of them, I don't even think he ever used much solvent, just oil. They run a few patches of hoppes thru the bore if that, dry and oil it and put it away until next year. It may be worth a try, not every barrel likes the same treatment as others, try something a little different and see if the POI stays the same after a couple groups, instead of cleaning so often.

Tim

northjdr · « **Reply #38 on:** November 26, 2006, 05:16:58 PM »

Ok. I'll stop being such a whiner. But I'm a problem solver by nature so I'll just keep trying stuff. The next big step is reloading. I should get my supplies early this week. I was out at the range again today.(my wife is wondering if something else wrong I've been at the range so often). After a couple of shots to zero the newly remounted scope I got the similar results. 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. Oh, and I purchased some Philz and gave it the once over after rezeroing the scope. So if I have a faulty scope how would I know? Would it make sense to swap in a scope that seems to operate fine on another rifle? This is the 2nd scope I've had on the rifle. I think the earlier Smmons gave was faulty from the start but I din't discover it until about 70 roundds. I'll try letting it copper foul a bit and see if that works. Otherwise I plumb out of ideas. I ordered the book that everyone seems to recommend. Accurizing the Factory Rifle. All things considered though, if my biggest problem is a 2.5 inch group then life is good.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #39 on:** November 26, 2006, 05:22:19 PM »

I don't remember or see how many types of ammo you've tried, if you're shooting the same thing all the time, that likely won't work, you can only get so much accuracy out of some ammo in a specific rifle if it just doesn't shoot well with it, what have you tried so far?

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #40 on:** November 26, 2006, 06:50:22 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 26, 2006, 05:22:19 PM

I don't remember or see how many types of ammo you've tried, if you're shooting the same thing all the time, that likely won't work, you can only get so much accuracy out of some ammo in a specific rifle if it just doesn't shoot well with it, what have you tried so far?

Tim

Quote

I've used mostly good ammo. Blackhills 168gr & 175gr Match HP, Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr. I've also shot some cheaper 150grain Federal soft points.

...and the 150 Fusion as well...

Your shift in groups was most likely caused by the forend screw working loose due to the foam breaking down under the barrel......keep it tight...also..when I find my groups starting to scatter like yours are doing...I check the forend screw first...then I make sure I maintain a constant cheek weld...and this stops it from happening...Since this is a single shot...try shooting for the best of 3 shots with it...The barrel won't heat up as fast...and can give you a good indication on how it will shoot too...If you are going to stay with factory ammo...try some of the 180 grain loads...and see if your groups improve...Me thinks your going to have to load them out a good ways when you start reloading...if it's anything like my 308 bull barrel was...

Use a good foaming bore cleaner like Wipe Out..or GunSlick...and really clean your barrel good...If your still getting heavy fouling...you might want to try using Flitz on it...I've done several and it's what I use...Also...we have a sponser here that sells a real good product...It's called Moly Fusion...and is sold by Shooters Solution...This doesn't just coat your bore...it actually bonds to the metal in it...and virtually eliminates any fouling in a barrel...It is applied once it is completely cleaned and broken in in a 3 step program...It also will reduce the barrel temps...and this will help increase the life expectincy of them too...I had pretty good luck with it on my 25-06 barrel...and is a worth a look...

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #41 on:** November 26, 2006, 07:05:45 PM »

I skimmed the entire thread, missed it.

Isn't all that match ammo for targets only?

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 26, 2006, 07:17:10 PM »

Yup...all but the power points and the fusions...both in 150 grains...

Mac

northjdr · « **Reply #43 on:** November 28, 2006, 01:42:56 PM »

Yes I tried the match ammo because I was just looking for decent groups and my 223 just loves the blackhills stuff. For a while I was able to average under 2" even with the winchster power points 150 gr. But the groups seemed to have openedup a bit. I'll try some heavier bullets with my reloads. I don't know enough about reloading right now to even ask inteligent questions but it should be fun My equipment will be here tomorrow. I had another thought. I don't own a slugged rifle or a muzzle loader yet so if I can't get the 308 to shoot a bit better I can always get some other barrels. Several people have mentioned rimmed cartriges and how they seem to be less finicky with the breakopen action. What would the most accurate rimmed caliber be? It gets a little confusing trying to figure out what barrels would fit on my Ultra. I'll check some of the other threads out. I want to say again that this site is a great resource.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #44 on:** November 28, 2006, 02:28:37 PM »

Any barrel except the 10ga shotgun and 12ga slug gun will fit your Ultra if it was made after 1999, a .45-70 or a .30-30 would be a great addition in rimmed cartridges.

I know this may have been asked before, but you've shot it a lot since this started, with the forend off the rifle, is the barrel loose at all when the action is closed tight?

Tim

safetysheriff · « **Reply #45 on:** November 28, 2006, 03:35:15 PM »

what comes to my mind is to get the barrel re-crowned if a 'smith says that it needs it(get it checked, in other words). put loctite on the forearm screw to hold it in place. don't over-torque that screw on the forearm. while the forearm is off the rifle put some good automotive grease on the hinge pin and the extractor/ejector housing to keep them from wearing out.

are any of the screws for the base bottoming out in the hole, allowing the base/rings/scope to move or to flex?

what was the noise (clicking?) coming from with your rifle that you described in one or two of your posts?

when you close the action on these rifles you have to follow the instruction manual and close the action with a firm hand so that the release lever is resistant to opening the action. it should take a little effort to get the release lever to open the piece. i learned to close the rifle energetically and it's helped my accuracy. don't worry about the frame stretching.

just some thoughts,

ss'

northjdr · « **Reply #46 on:** November 28, 2006, 04:48:47 PM »

For crying out loud, I'm going to spend all my time just answering questions.

I grease the areas idicated, the mount is solid. No wiggle with the foreend off. Locks up solid. The clicking noise was from the cross pieces that were not as wide as the weaver rail grooves . I shimmed and problem solved. Just so I have this. Bed forearm but not if it makes it worse, make sure the forearm screw is tight but not too tight, close firmly, try shooting gun dirty if it won't shoot clean, reverse if it won't shoot dirty try heavier if it won't shoot light ammo, reverse if it won't shoot heavy,maintain proper cheek weld, aim, breath, inhale hold (but not too long), pull, firmly without jerking, pull through on pull, pat my head and rub my tummy at the same time..sorry I had to throw in the last 2.... as I said earlier I appreciate all the help. It might be I got a lemon OR I can't shoot. I am looking forward to relaoding. I was reading about COL and ogive and all sorts of weird stuff. should be fun.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #47 on:** November 28, 2006, 05:00:40 PM »

How's the trigger pull weight? I just searched and never saw where you stated how heavy the trigger is.

That alone could keep you from getting great groups.

Tim

northjdr · « **Reply #48 on:** November 28, 2006, 05:07:24 PM »

It seems to break a just under 5 lbs. And if my memroy serves me, back in the Carter Administration when this thread started, you might have suggested that a trigger job was in my future. Way back in one of the first posts. If I can get some reloads to work better I might consider getting the trigger improved but at some point you just give uppppp. (kidding again)

northjdr · « **Reply #49 on:** November 28, 2006, 05:11:13 PM »

"A trigger job is also in your future if you want the best accuracy, not hard to do following the instructions in the FAQ, many novices here have done them with excellent results." Quickdtoo
yep there is is. it's in your first reply.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #50 on:** November 28, 2006, 05:25:31 PM »

Heh heh, I only searched the 2nd page of this 2 page thread!!!

My .280 had a digital scale weighed trigger pull a little over 5lbs, but I could still shoot moa or much better with it, I suppose technique and being used to it has a lot to do with it, but a trigger job will make it far easier to shoot better groups......and, it will take your mind off the ordeal you're going thru!!

Tell ya what, put a spent round in the chamber while at the range, then set up in your usual bench shooting position and watch thru the scope when you pull the trigger, if you see any movement of the reticle on the target, it's going to affect accuracy. If not, the trigger is good like it is.

Tim