Author Topic: who reloads 357 max for handi's, I got some ?'s (Read 2429 times)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2010, 07:30:07 PM »

It's not compressed, at that COL I could probably go another grain or so before it starts compressing the powder, but none of AA's data for 1680 shows it as compressed, so I don't know if that's a good idea or not.

Tim

Gallahad · « **Reply #31 on:** April 10, 2010, 03:26:28 PM »

I read somewhere that once a powder gets compressed the pressure actually drops a little, as opposed to a "not full case" Would be very handi to know, but I sure don't want to be one to do an experiment. I Wonder if someone at accurate arms could give more info on 1680 in the 357 max?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #32 on:** April 10, 2010, 05:54:35 AM »

If you read the 357maximum.com link I provided, you'll see the author contacted Johan Loubser at AA, he would be the one to ask.

Tim

http://accuratearms.com/ContactUs.htm

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2010, 02:24:52 PM »

My contact with Mr. Loubser was an e-mail indicating the max load with 180gr weight ends with, LD ca 105%. Which to me indicates load capacity, 105%, compressed. DP

quickdtoo · « **Reply #34 on:** April 11, 2010, 03:32:19 PM »

Thanks DP, just to confirm, that was with AA1680?

Tim

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #35 on:** April 11, 2010, 03:34:37 PM »

Yes sir, it was for Accurate 1680. DP

Gallahad · « **Reply #36 on:** April 12, 2010, 04:30:07 AM »

Pardon my ignorance. I've only ever dealt with powder by weight. Is 105% more than a full case of powder? I e-mailed him also, asking about the 200gr. ftx, no response yet. I just won't be happy until I work a load for that bullet and do some penatration/expansion tests.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2010, 06:11:52 AM »

Yes, 100% load density would be uncompressed, 105% would be 5% compressed.

Tim

Gallahad · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2010, 01:27:46 PM »

I e-mailed Johan this:

"just to re-cap, rifles are strong single shot actions. I found this quote on a 357 max sight:

"Since 1680 is really verging on being too slow burning for the .357 Maximum I could safely compress more and the chances of over pressure is virtually impossible. Johan estimated the pressure of my 28.0 grain load to be 43,000-45,000 psi and well within the caliber’s envelope and the T/C gun I am using."
Several guys shooting this load that I've talked to.

Max pressure is supposed to be around 48,000 psi for this caliber if I am correct. One fellow is shooting 28.5 gr. aa1680 behind a 180 gr. speer fp. and the bullet is only in the case .20" and factory crimped. I am more interested in the 200gr.ftx, and seating very close to the lands. I can't give you the col now as my gun is in the shop, and I don't have my components yet. I want maximum velocity, while knowing the load is within the pressure limits of the cartridge. Obviously I would work up to "that" load, looking for pressure signs. Although I read that compressed loads often have lower pressures than uncompressed loads of the same powder and bullet weight. Any help is appreciated."

He e-mailed me this:

As mentioned its virtually impossible to generate excessive pressures with this combination.(A-1680)
We suggest the following.

Caliber: .357 Maximum
Barrel length: 14” (for 24” barrel add ca 8.5% = ca +156 Fps to the velocities below)
Powder: Accurate – 1680®.
Bullet weight: 200 grains.
Start load: 18.9 grains (1400 – 1500 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 21.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Ft/p/sec). LD ca 100%

He also told me in a previous e-mail that 180 gr. ssp max loads were 26 gr. aa1680. Now if everybody is shooting 28gr's with no problems, whats the deal with this info?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2010, 01:47:37 PM »

You're confusing CUP and PSI, the SAAMI max aver pressure for the 357Max is 40kpsi, Accurate's data on their website is 48KCUP, not PSI, they list no conversion in their manual. Whether the limit in AA's data is old or equal to 40kpsi, I don't know. But you should certainly be able to work up the load using safe loading practices, that is starting low and working up in ½gr increments to me.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Remington%20Maximum%20page%20105.pdf

Big Blue · « **Reply #40 on:** April 13, 2010, 02:45:51 PM »

It seems like most are opting for heavier bullets in the 180-200gr. range and I plan to follow that lead working up loads using CPB 187gr bullet. I have however been wondering how lighter bullets might work. With most designed to operate at .357 magnum velocities, I was thinking that the Barnes 140gr. might be worth a try. Their bullets are legendary for holding together, so the extra FPS of the Maximum shouldn't be a problem. I wonder what sort of velocity I might be able to achieve from a Maximum with this bullet?
Don

Gallahad · « **Reply #41 on:** April 13, 2010, 04:16:18 PM »

Well thanks again Tim

VERY good to know. yer right, the different units just slipped past me in reading the data. I figured 1/2 gr. increments would be good, so thanks for that too. I too wondered about the possibilities of the 140 gr. copper solid hp. even with the improved velocity, i think the light hollowpoint bullet would drop quicker than the pointed bullets. Tim will probably let us know

but the damage on target??? I like deer to go flop! my 444 handi using 250 gr. partitions - no tracking!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 14, 2010, 04:58:40 AM »

FWIW, I too like the bang/flop on deer, or any game, but have rarely seen it happen unless the shot got the brain, spine or central nervous system. Wisconsin Whitetails are tough critters that just dont know when they are dead. Ive autopsied my, and other's, kills and found that fatally shot deer can go 25 to 100ish yards before the 'flop'. Ive seen a 100 yd. from one with the top half of the heart shredded. Fact is that a deer who bolts and runs can cover that 100yd. in a few seconds, then be down and dead. 25yd. fatally wounded is very normal, but at least you can usually see where they fall or find them quickly.
We have more than a few 'lost' kills because the 'hunters' cant track a wounded deer past where they last saw them. Sad.

clearwater · « **Reply #43 on:** April 14, 2010, 08:22:49 AM »

Lyman's lists Reloder 7 as most accurate in several bullet weights. Anyone confirm this works well?

Can't get AA here.

Gallahad · « **Reply #44 on:** April 14, 2010, 12:37:59 PM »

Too true gcrank1. I've had to do next day trackings with family members who "heard where the deer ran" and during bow season that means ruined meat. Theres no excuse for poor tracking, or in that case, no tracking except to go where you think the deer went. I live in northern WI, and your sure right about the deer. I DID have one go @ 20 yds with that 444 load,

and that was a hit right where the rear of the front shoulder intersects the body vertically, and directly between the back and belly. I do believe thats the liver? best spot to aim imho as you have the best chance of hitting vitals. the other two deer hit with that load did flop right over, and were both lung shots, however one was a quartering shot and bullet exited through brisket. My dad shoots em right through the front shoulder, but I can't stand to waste the meat. It does however usually put em right down. The best reason for the bang flop (again , my opinion) it less DRAGGING!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 14, 2010, 01:04:56 PM »

Yep, front shoulder, thats where my 'one shot, one kill' wife liked to hit 'em with her 30-30 when she hunted. There isnt much meat there and the 30-30 doesnt bloodshot a lot of what little there is. We could trim it off and still eat most of it. They would still go 20-25yd on 3 props, but usually that was about it.
Those darn heart/lung shots are where Ive seen most of the 100yd run/die senarios.
I like big fat bullets to let out a lot of wind and vital fluids in a hurry, even if they dont expand much, but slow is all they need to do it. In our area 50yd is usually the long shot but I would sight in for 100 and be good to go.

aromakr · « **Reply #46 on:** April 15, 2010, 08:55:00 AM »

28 1/2" Gr of A1680 is a compressed load with that bullet.
Bob

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #47 on:** April 15, 2010, 09:35:43 AM »

Quote from: clearwater on April 14, 2010, 08:22:49 AM

Lyman's lists Reloder 7 as most accurate in several bullet weights. Anyone confirm this works well?

Can't get AA here.

Try IMR 4227 It's my favorite.

Gallahad · « **Reply #48 on:** April 15, 2010, 04:21:52 PM »

Well after doing some research I think I may just stick with the hornady 180 ssp. pass throughs seem to be the standard on deer, with generally great accuracy and the best trajectory for speed available in the 357 max. The speer hot cores apparently don't expand as well(better penetration, but smaller wound channel) and have a lower B.C. All the 200 grainers will kick harder and not gain me anything in trajectory (although the red tip would make a nice looking shell

) for anybody shooting hard cast, I read a review for speer gold dot 170 gr. bullets. They apparently barley mushroom, and have a very large flat on the front of the bullet with a hollow cavity. They were compared to a "jacketed hard cast" bullet.

wreckhog · « **Reply #49 on:** April 16, 2010, 07:45:43 AM »

Some people have poor luck with SSP's. Shoot whatever shoots well.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #50 on:** April 16, 2010, 03:44:28 PM »

I have been reading from the beginning and haven't commented as Tim had it more than covered. But now that your in the realm of bullets hitting game, I'll add my 2 cents as I have shot a "few" with the handi maxi.

First and foremost, the 357 maximum is one of my all time favorite calibers and my favorite handi, I will never be without it.

I have had nothing but Bang Flops with a near max load of AA1680 powder, a remmy case, a remmy SR primer and a Hornady 180SSP bullet from my handi factory 357 Maximum. It exits my muzzle at damn near 2200fps.

I hunt here in New England, we have big deer and altho I cannot confirm it, I'm sure they are built the same as yours. The bucks I have shot averaged about 160 on the hoof and 125-130 on the meat pole. My shoots are inside 75 yards some much closer. I shoot for bones and bang flops are the norm. This past season was the first non bang flop in some time. It was a 30-30 Hornady 160Gr FTX at about 10 yards, high thru the shoulders missing the spine. Ran about 40-50 yards dying in mid stride going thru a briar bush. As mentioned, the maxi has an excellent record of bang flops. High shoulder shots at these ranges and velocities generally only have shrapnel exiting the off side. So common that I switched to the Speer 180 FP. This is a tougher bullet and works just about as well, but nickle sized exits are the norm no matter what gets hit in the animal. I have also used the 170GD. Remember, this bullet is designed for the 357mag, so upping the velocity results in impressive expansion. But the construction of the bullet keeps it together. Resulting in some very impressive mushrooms. (Quarter sized) At least judging by the exit wounds as I have yet to recover one!! the 180gr Partitions and 180 XTP are good bullets as well, but accuracy has been stellar with the SSP, so that's what I prefer. I too have loaded the FTX 200's but still haven't shot them. I have shot allot of 200 SP and RN bullets and firmly believe the 180 is where its at for a game bullet in the maxi. The lighter bullets and the Remmy 180HP are simply too lightly constructed for the maxi in a rifle barrel for use on big game. The lone exception is the excellent Hornady 158FP bullet.This thing is a GREAT 357Mag carbine bullet!!! Classic mushrooms and many dead deer confirm that! Its pretty good in the maxi as well, but IMHO the 180 are better.

Here is a 200 FTX maximum.

I have had the maxi for many years and loaded with all available powders sans Viti vouri (Now I even have some of that to try!!)and most all bullets from the 125's to the 200's. Some shot better than others, none shot as well as the 180 SSP with AA1680 powder, from my gun. Before the Handi I hunted with the Maxi in a Contender pistol. A problematic 357 Herrett and a friend silhouette shooter turned me on to the maxi. The maxi is Tailor made for the short distances and close population I find where I hunt. it has unseated the 45Colt as my favorite round for this kind of hunting and that's no small feat. As I have loaded and hunted with that one for more than 20 years before finding the maxi almost 10 years ago! To put it another way, I have 5 45 colt hand guns and 3 45Colt rifles but only one handi 357 maxi.

Here is a target with the 170GD @ 100 yds.

The maxi is something I know a little something about...

CW

Gallahad · « **Reply #51 on:** April 16, 2010, 04:49:08 PM »

Well thanks for chiming in! Now did I read correctly, in that the 170 gold dot gave quarter sized mushrooms and complete pass throughs? care to mention the powder charge?

please! sound like a better killer than the ssp. one reveiw I read made me think the gd didn't hardly expand at all. Prabably lower vel. than the max. you have to let us know how the ftx's shoot!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #52 on:** April 17, 2010, 03:06:54 PM »

I prefer not to post up actual loads. But as I mentioned, AA1680 is my #1 powder for the maxi. Its what I found to be most accurate from my gun. AA1680 is the powder...

CW

Austinite · « **Reply #53 on:** April 17, 2010, 08:00:48 PM »

cwlongshot,

You mentioned that high shoulder shots with the .357 maxi resulted in only shrapnel exited the offside shoulder. Does the Hornady 180 SSP fragment? Do you get consistent exit wounds? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #54 on:** April 18, 2010, 03:16:01 PM »

Quote from: Austinite on April 17, 2010, 08:00:48 PM

cwlongshot,

You mentioned that high shoulder shots with the .357 maxi resulted in only shrapnel exited the offside shoulder. Does the Hornady 180 SSP fragment? Do you get consistent exit wounds? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

No problem.

Yes high shoulder is my preferred shot as my shots are generally quite close. My velocity is at or just over 2200. This shot placement generally will hit or "clip" the spine. The 180gr SSP bullet does fragment under these conditions.
Now, I have shot deer at twice this range, thru the lungs and had perfect performance with large exits. This was my reason for trying the 180 SPEER FP. But IMHO, its a bit too tough unless major bones are hit at close range so the velocity remains high.

CW

dave29 · « **Reply #55 on:** April 19, 2010, 04:02:02 PM »

CW, what die are you using to seat the 180 SSP's?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #56 on:** April 19, 2010, 04:33:53 PM »

RCBS with a modified seater stem.

CW

dave29 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 21, 2010, 01:38:50 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on April 19, 2010, 04:33:53 PM

RCBS with a modified seater stem.

CW

Did you modify it? Or do they sell them?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #58 on:** April 21, 2010, 03:27:29 PM »

I did it myself.

It doesn't need to be completely tapered to the exact profile of the bullet, just clearance for the tip and completely centered.

CW