Beginning//Introduction to .45-70

[Mac11700]

cpj:

The Lee Factory crimp die is much easier on the cases than doing a taper crimp. This will extend the case life as well. Also..when set properly..will give much more consistant velocities in a shot string.This is easily proven with a chrongraph.The bullet pull can be easily set with as much or as little as one needs..It's not always about bullets jumping around in a magazine my friend..although that is important when a magazine is used..Each rifle has a sweet spot for each load used..this is just an inexpensive tool that can be used if a person wants to..and has always been recommended by most handloaders for the cartridge....Same for the Lyman "M" die..It bells the case mouths way better than most any factory die..and over working the brass isn't the best way to do things..While normal factory crimp/bell dies do indeed work..these are 2 exceptional alternatives that really work good and cost very little..and can improve ones results when handloading..

Mac

I guess I can see where the Lee crimp die may extend case life. I have not had an issue with that, Im on at least 8 loadings on my brass, with no signs of failure  lurking about. But, an extra loading or two may be worth it. One thing I dont get, is how the Lyman die could bell the case any better. I have not had any experience with it, but I just dont get it. I bell my case "just enough" to get the bullet to slip in. And I mean "just enough". Almost to the point of I need to bell them a fuzz more. I dont see how another die could bell a case any less, or any better.

As to accuracy gained with a factory crimp die, it may, or may not help. For me, it makes not one bit of difference. Even if it made my groups 3/4 of an inch tighter at 100 yards, I would never see it. Using a red dot scope, I cant see that great to realize any gains that it may provide. But I do know this....  I dont know of a single person who competes with rifles that shoot caliber sized groups that use the Lee factory crimp die......just sayin'.

In Squibs case..it's his eye sight I was refering to..we have had some correspondence via PM's about it..

The Lyman M die has various stages to it and is very gentle on the case mouth..It works wonders when loading bigger gas checked bullets...as well as jacketed ones..As I told Squib in my PM's with him on it..I exclusivly use nickle plated brass with my 45-70 loads..and the difference a regular factory crimp/bell die..and that of the Lyman/Lee combo is amazing..The difference is in the angles of what is being belled by the die..and the amount..You would have to use one to appreciate how it works..

3/4 " groups is excellent..and if you can do no better..then that's that..but..I try to have all my rifles shoot into 1 hole.. My loads for the 45-70 in my rifles and some others I have loaded for produce single digit standard deviations in velocities..This is what I strive for in my handloads..consistancy..and the lowest variations...I can get these low numbers with this die easier than with any roll crimp die..The factory crimp die just does a much better job in regards to this....than any other I've used over the years from anyone else..Plus to me it's way easier to set up..

As to winning competitions with it..I haven't a clue if any will or ever have..The low cost of both of them puts them with in easy reach of most anyone on a buget..and I have just offered my advise to the OP based on my knowledge of the gun and the cartridge and years of reloading for them..

Be Well

Mac

[Squib]

is it at least agreed that from medium to heavy loadings that H-4198 is the most versatile?  I've heard that one a lot and it's anything from thirty something to about sixty grains in the heaviest loads

also the imr vs the hodgdon, what's the real difference (the only in depth book I've got is a lymans and it only talks about the saami loads so it's not worth much to me)

I've got trail boss and varget to use up and then onto something else for my 45-70 (trail boss and varget for 38's and 308)

[cpj]

 I have had more splits on nickel cases than on brass. Thats with .38 and .357, not .45-70. Many others I know have had that issue as well.

[cpj]

Ive only used the TB and Varget. 

 You have a message. (or will have shortly)

[Squib]

I assume that varget hurts?  it looked like a stout load from what I read on load data I could find, but it won't perform if the case ain't loaded up pretty full.  I'm looking for something that I can use for medium AND heavy loads, 4198 h and imr I've heard works good for that

man it used to just be trail boss, 231 and varget, ... not h110 and probably something new for 9mm Luger soon, plus three or four for the 45-70 to find my magic hurts others but not me loads, plus monster loads, plus softies for sport

I'm just looking to get the most from a cheap rifle and tried and true cartridge... now I'm gonna end up buying $200 bucks in powder and bullets trying to get it right 

[kevinsmith5]

My 20 nickel cases are just for BP.  LIght loads and low pressure, so splits and wear are pretty low (liike 10-15 reloads a piece and going strong).

[kevinsmith5]

Varget can go from low to moderate. I've got load data from Trapdoor to Leverguns that calls for Varget, but none of the Ruger loads I've seen call for Varget.  55.0 grs (which is a compressed load) pushes a 405 gr cast bullet to about 1950 fps.....that's not too wild.

[Squib]

as far as nickel is concerned, I get factory reject .357 nickel brass from starline and load it up hot with BARELY less than a H-110 max load all the time (not painful due to porting and good grips but still disgusting blast) not a single issue yet, and I crimp them really hard too (I've had it start to chip by the mouths before, but I usually toss them after about five loadings



and when I say I've used rejects, well sometimes it's just that the nickel is discolored, sometimes it's mixed headstamps, sometimes it's flashhole run-out...

nickel won't hurt anything except your dies (wears them out faster)

[BBF]

I've used 2400 and Blue Dot with cast bullets in the 400 gr. Range. Shoots well, burns cleanand has enough E for hunting and is pleasant to shoot.