Author Topic: S&W 500 in a Marlin Guide Gun? (Read 7909 times)

Buckeye · « **Reply #30 on:** March 03, 2003, 11:28:47 PM »

So true, so true !

Win71 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2003, 10:27:31 AM »

I voted NO! There are plenty of calibers that could be revived that would be just as good if not better. Like the 50-95, 50-110, 45-90, 40-82, 348, & 33 Winchester. These would all work in a Winchester model 1886/71 action or a Marlin 1895 with some minor modification on the Marlin. All were capable of leveling anything on this continent in previous loadings. With some minor updates they'd be lethal anywhere.

Buckeye · « **Reply #32 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:00:21 PM »

Now thats an Idea ,bring back the best of all levers the 71win.
I had my chance to own one but missed out!

Harpy · « **Reply #33 on:** March 06, 2003, 09:08:18 AM »

I think I read that the .50 S&W Mag operates just under 50,000psi (MAP) with a 440 Cast Performance Flatnose bullet. I don't think the Marlin was made for that kind of pressure, especially a regular diet of it!

Harpy

Zachary · « **Reply #34 on:** March 06, 2003, 09:30:13 AM »

What are the higher limits of pressue that the Marlin can handle?

Zachary

Enforcer · « **Reply #35 on:** March 06, 2003, 09:34:40 AM »

Quote from: Harpy

I think I read that the .50 S&W Mag operates just under 50,000psi (MAP) with a 440 Cast Performance Flatnose bullet. I don't think the Marlin was made for that kind of pressure, especially a regular diet of it!

Harpy

Marlins are made to handle 52,000cup,per the 307win,356Win and 375Win.You can't really compute cup to psi.But 49,000psi is about 52,000cup in 356 and 375Win.So yes it would handle it,as the Marlins have been loaded to over 52,000psi without signs of stress.

Harpy · « **Reply #36 on:** March 07, 2003, 12:33:26 PM »

Enforcer

The base on a .307Win or .356Win is .471. The base just above the rim on a .500 S&W Mag is .530!
I have owned Winchester’s, Marlins for over 30yrs and Win 94 BB’s for about 20yrs and I have never personally read where Marlin stated that the action is/was a 50,000 psi+ action or that a Marlin action was as strong or stronger than a Win BB’s! I have read that the Win 94 BB, Browning BLR, Savage 99 were 50,000psi + actions and stronger than a Marlins.

"as the Marlins have loaded over 52,000psi without signs of stress."

I don’t think it is O.K to run the Marlins this high even though you are without “signs of stress." I don’t think that means the manufacture recommends this high of a pressure for the Marlin. I don’t believe any of the factory ammo loaded ever came close to 52,000psi for the .307 or the .356Win……….

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that, even though you might think it is safe to load a .307 Win or.356 Win with a base of .471 to 50,000psi+ in your Marlin (and it might very well be safe) the base on the .500 S&W Mag is much larger and the pounds of pressure that is exerted on the bolt face is much greater.

50,000psi on a base of .471 is NOT the same as pressure as 50,000psi on a base of .530 on a Bolt Face!

Harpy

Enforcer · « **Reply #37 on:** March 07, 2003, 01:53:15 PM »

Quote from: Harpy

Enforcer Reply

First the WinM94 had to be reinforced to handle the pressure of the 307,356 and 375,hence the big bore label.Nothing was done to the Marlin to handle those rounds.If you were to go on the Marlin site and spill that false rumor.You would be eaten alive.Because it just ain't true.They shoot the same rounds come on.

Second the WinM94 should not be mentioned in the same sentence as the Browning BLR,Savage M99,Win M88 and so fourth.They all handle the 284Win which SAAMI limit is 56,000psi(Accurate).Also they also shoot the 308win which at times is loaded to 62,000psi(Source COTW 9Th pg 326 Frank Barnes).They are also shot rergularly at 60,000psi in 416-284McPherson(Source COTW pg 197 Mic McPherson)A gun I've owned for a year in a Savage M99R,and shot around 400rds at 60,000psi.

Third you are right factory loads are weak.But Accurate and many others load the 307,356 and 375 over 50,000cup regularly.Though I agree that a larger base of the 500 S&W would exert more force on the bolt than the med bores.I didn't say it wouldn't.I said the Marlin could handle it !!!!

Fourth i'm having a 510KE built on a Win M1886.It is loaded to over 50,000psi regularly and would also work in a Marlin M1895,Win M71 or Win M1895(source COTW 9TH pg 205 Frank Barnes).

Fifth Barnes #3 states 45/70,444 Marlin and 450 Marlin can all be safely loaded to 43,000psi(pg 711)Some state the 450Marlin and 444 can be loaded to 45,000psi and up.

Sixth i have right now over 30 lever actions and have at times had over 60.I've collected and shoot levers actions for over 15 years.

These are some of my rarer lever action rounds I handload for:
22 Hi-Power,219 Zipper,256Win Mag,405Win,303 British,30/40 Krag,7MM STE,7x30 Waters,416-284 McPherson,303Sav,250Sav,270 Ackley Savage Improved.

So like yourself i know a little about levers action and their calibers and their abilities!

And i don't think I can load a Marlin in 307Win or 356Win or even 375win for that matter,to 52,000cup.I know I can,as that is SAMMI limit,and always sides on the side of safety.I'm your huckleberry and this is just my game!!!

Harpy · « **Reply #38 on:** March 07, 2003, 05:49:16 PM »

I did not mean to offend any Marlin users, I use them my self. Also, I hope I did not lead you to believe that I was talking about Win M1886, Win M71, Win M1895 NOT being able to with stand the pressure. I was talking about the Marlin’s 1895. I personally prefer the fell of a slicked up Win 94 BB or Marlin 1895 action over the savage 99, Win 88 and the Browning BLR. (I just sold a Savage 99 in .358)

“Fifth Barnes #3 states 45/70,444 Marlin and 450 Marlin can all be safely loaded to 43,000psi(pg 711)Some state the 450Marlin and 444 can be loaded to 45,000psi and up.”

43,000 to 45,000psi in not 52,000psi! Better be careful, did you ever have a gun come apart in your hands!!! I hope you never do.

“50,000psi on a base of .471 is NOT the same as pressure as 50,000psi on a base of .530 on a Bolt Face! I don’t think the Marlin could handle it on a regular basis. I think you would be better off with a 50 Alaskan operating at a lower pressure.

I do load my Win 94 BB 444 Black Shadow to 50,000psi+ and have well over 2,500 rounds throw it. It has a 1X12 twist and loves 350gr to 415gr bullets. I have taken Boar, Bear, Deer, turkeys, coyotes, etc the gun and it is my personal favorite.

I would like to know how you arrive at “ 49,000psi is about 52,000cup” so I can use it in my other calculations.

What is your favorite load in your 45-70?

What part of Pa do you live. I am from the N.E Pa.

It is always good to meet another "Lever Man"

Harpy

Enforcer · « **Reply #39 on:** March 07, 2003, 06:53:20 PM »

Harpy,I listed the Marlin M1895 right along with the Win M1895,Win M71 and Win M1886.Why because Frank Barnes list it as one of the rifles to build his 510 Kodiak Express on.So why would you say" i didn't say the others wouldn't handle the pressure,just the Marlin M1895 would not".Frank says yes,you say no.I side with Frank,sorry.I choose the Win M1886,for my own reasons,but not because i felt the Marlin couldn't handle it.My gun smith that built my 416-284 McPherson,7MM STE and 270 Ackley Savage Improved,and is building my 510KEsaid it was my choice.Choose all would work!

Somehow cup and psi keep getting mixed up.I said SAMMI limits for 307,356,and 375Win is 52,000cup(Accurate).I than said they have been loaded(Marlins) to over 52,000psi without fail.Not that was the SAMMI limit or I suggest loading to that.I also said that Accurate loads to over 50,000cup regularly in the 307,356,and 375Win.To show your statement never loaded close to SAMMI limits by factory,is somewhat false.It is not factory ammo,but close.As a manufacturer of ammo to public,same as factory.And must meet same safety guide lines!

As far as 49,000psi and 52,000cup.That is what I've found based on same loads listed in cup and psi for those rounds.It does not relate to other cartridges.Cup and psi are not interchangable!

Yes i have had a two guns come apart on me.Not due to excessive pressure.But due to faulty workmanship from factory!I don't exceed SAAMI pressures unless guided by those who know from experience with the round(Barnes,Ackley,McPherson,Simpson etc...)

The reference to 45,000psi in 45/70,450 Marlin and 444 Marlin.Was to show how close they are to your 500 S&W 50,000psi.When the SAAMI limit was at one time 28,000psi for the 45/70.And no one knows that the 500 S&W is at 50,000psi anyway.But if it is so what!The Marlin M1895 is one of the rifles Frank Barnes used for his 510KE at over 50,000psi,as i stated before.Sundles (a custom ammo maker)from Marlin talk,knew a guy that tried to blow up a Win M1886 was over 70,000psi and gave up as it would not.The Win M1886 and Marlin M1895 are chambered in the same clibers.You do the math.

I don't shoot the 45/70.I prefer the 416-284 McPherson in Savage M99R,or 405Win in Win M1895.I unlike you prefer the slickness of the Savage M99,Sako Finnwolf,Win M88 and their high velocity rounds(22/250,250Sav,284win,243Win,308Win,300Sav,358Win).Though I have 7 lever actions in Marlins and 5 in Browning BLRs.I must admit a foundness for the Win M1895.Not so much the rifle,but the sweet calibers it comes in.I have 3 a 303Brit,30/40 krag and a 405Win.

I live in N.E. Pa also,but am moving to Mexico in less than two months.I spend very little time at home,as my work keeps me away(sometimes away from even the U.S.)I was born in Colorado,but lived all over as my father was in the Air Force.Nice meeting a lever guy from Pa though.Good Day Enforcer

Harpy · « **Reply #40 on:** March 08, 2003, 02:49:49 AM »

I found this site very interesting!

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

It is a small world. I too was in the Air Force back in 84. I picked up my .307 Win BB while I was at pilot training (ENJJPT) at Sheppard AFB TX.

What is the base of your 510KE?

I have a friend who I go bear hunting with who had a 50-110 built on a Win 86 action and he chronographed a 525 grain bullet at 2215 fps out of a 22.5 inch barrel. That is around 5,698 fps at the muzzle.

Good Hunting
Harpy

Enforcer · « **Reply #41 on:** March 08, 2003, 05:11:16 AM »

Quote from: Harpy

I found this site very interesting!

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

It is a small world. I too was in the Air Force back in 84. I picked up my .307 Win BB while I was at pilot training (ENJJPT) at Sheppard AFB TX.

What is the base of your 510KE?

I have a friend who I go bear hunting with who had a 50-110 built on a Win 86 action and he chronographed a 525 grain bullet at 2215 fps out of a 22.5 inch barrel. That is around 5,698 fps at the muzzle.

Good Hunting
Harpy

Base diameter of 510KE is .552,COl is 2.68. I will be shooting 400gr DEL FNSP at 2500fps-5400fpe out of 26in barrel.Good Luck and sorry for the long and strong posts.Enforcer

MONGO · « **Reply #42 on:** March 15, 2003, 01:31:26 PM »

I agree with Greybeard. You don't put a jug of sour milk back into the refridgerator hoping it will turn better. The Dixie-Chumps are backtracking because they are losin money and the fans support. Not for thier change of heart. I will remember S&Ws failure to the 2nd amendment and I will remember how I felt that day 9/11. Wake up America. I'm off my soap box now.

Harpy · « **Reply #43 on:** March 15, 2003, 02:58:58 PM »

I just found the article where I read that the .500 S&W MAg loaded with a 440 Cast Performance flatnose operates @ 49,500psi MAP: SHOOTING TIMES April 2003

1GLOCK · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2003, 10:27:14 AM »

As I understand it S&W was owned by the Britts at the time of the "sellout" However, NOW they are once again under AMERICAN control so I would not hesitate to buy any S&W product, On the other hand, the 50S&W to me is pointless so NO i wouldnt by one.

Buckeye · « **Reply #45 on:** April 06, 2003, 01:40:04 AM »

1 Glock, Why pointless ?, sounds like a fun big bore project to me.
Not only that it would be a handy bear and pig gun. But I'd have to admit if a fellow has a .444 marlin, or a 45/70 or a 450 marlin , the need factor isn't there. But I don't operate on the need factor ,I use the want factor!
:lol:

SingleFan · « **Reply #46 on:** April 17, 2003, 11:04:00 AM »

What have S&W's revenues been over the past couple of years? Any body following how effective the 'buycott' has been?

SingleFan · « **Reply #47 on:** April 17, 2003, 11:15:14 AM »

30.7% increase over the prior year's period with eps $.29

That's a big push in a stagnant manufacturing economy.

I'm ready for them to make it right but I don't want to see them die unless they insist on not making it right; the fact that they haven't effectively lobbyed to repeal it doesn't mean they don't want to either.

Geepers I've worked business with even large companies let alone government that sometimes takes 2 years to get through even with executive sponsorship.

They ticked me off too but long hard experience has taught me that almost nothing is what it appears to be on the surface...I'd love to hear comments on the situation from the new(er)CEO. Then I could make a more definitive statement about whether they need to die.

Sgt. Drydock · « **Reply #48 on:** May 25, 2003, 02:28:39 AM »

Jeez, how can they "effectivly lobby for repeal" when they've allready had it killed? Don't anyone follow the news 'round here? Last year both the federal gov't agreement and the city agreement were both abandoned by mutual consent by S&W and the other parties involved. Its an issue thats deader than last years road kill. The S&W that made the agreement was owned by TOmpkins PLC of Great Britian. S&W is now owned by Saf-T-Hammer out of Arizona.

dabigmoose · « **Reply #49 on:** May 25, 2003, 03:25:36 AM »

http://wildwestgunscom.mavweb.net/Ammunition/body_ammunition.html

DONT KNOW where you guys are getting these wild ideas
about this 1950 fps out of a levergun when the 50 Alaskan
comes out at 2050 with a lot larger case capacity.
dabigmoose

Flashole · « **Reply #50 on:** May 26, 2003, 06:10:56 AM »

WOW I did not every reply but is sure stired up the old feelings for S&W
I vote yes but only if it was with in the price range of the other big bore Marlins. The new hand gun looks great, but I do not know any one that has one or is talking about getting one. I have a feeling that this round will die a slow death from lack of any real sales volume. How many $1,000 pistols do most of you own.

Harpy · « **Reply #51 on:** June 01, 2003, 04:43:03 PM »

I found this on the Marlin web site:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/008886.html

Harpy

Poll

Would you buy a Marlin Guide Gun if it were chambered in the S&W 500?

Author Topic: S&W 500 in a Marlin Guide Gun? (Read 7909 times)