Author Topic: No other barrels on .357 or .44? (Read 1544 times)

handimaniac · « **on:** October 15, 2011, 06:25:10 PM »

Sorry if this has been asked and answered a dozen times b4 - I really did try to find it using the search & faqs.

I recently purchased a new gun (serial CAC308XXX) with synthetic stocks and factory scope, chambered in .44 magnum. The right side of the gun states that no other barrels may be used with this firearm. When looking at the owners manual, it appears that every model uses the same frame (item # R00592), including the .44 magnum.

Just to add to my confusion, the website (www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.asp) says:
"*Note: The frame of the 44 Mag. (SB1-S44) and the 357 Mag. (SB1-S35) cannot be fit with any other centerfire rifle barrel. They are capable of being fit with accessory shotgun barrels, but their rifle capability is limited to the specific 44 or 357 Mag. barrel that it is shipped on the gun." My barrel is stamped SB2, not SB1, but I can't find any marks on the frame that give a part number.

Anyone know what exactly precludes the .357 and .44 magnum guns from having other barrels fitted (other than "H&R says so, that's why.")? Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Update* The manual I referenced above was the online manual. The printed version that came w/the gun doesn't have the part numbers listed, just their names. Printed version is 10/10 P.N. 403764. Online version looks like a combination of a couple different documents (www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/HR_NEF_HANDI_RIFLE_MANUAL.pdf). Maybe they no longer use the same frame on the .357mag, .44 mag and shotguns?

thejanitor · « **Reply #1 on:** October 15, 2011, 06:58:02 PM »

They say so because that particular frame (SB1) will not handle the other chambering pressures and you will be harmed when it blows up. They are made different than the SB2 frames and you need to pay attention to the warning. And if you choose to fit the wrong barrel to the frame the warning is stamped right on the frame so your family can't sue the company. Don't ignore it.
Just my thoughts on it, if you want to build a combo type gun for centerfire rifle calibers you need to buy an SB2 frame and either add your own second hand barrels or send it to the factory to have them fit any of the barrels offered in the program.
PLEASE do not put the wrong barrel on the wrong frame. (SB2 can handle your pistol calibers and rifle calibers, but the SB1 is made for the shotgun and pistol calibers only)
thejanitor
Welcome to GBO- I just saw your post count... you will find out all you ever need to know and then some if you hang around here a while, many, many handiholics with much knowledge.

demented · « **Reply #2 on:** October 15, 2011, 07:14:05 PM »

My SB-2 frame is included in the list of frames that won't take high pressure cartridges. I should have looked here before I bought the rifle.

Lon371 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 15, 2011, 10:32:45 PM »

Handimaniac
Welcome to Graybeards and the world of Handi Rifles. You need to go read the FAQ in the stickies here on the NEF/H&R forum, http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,26264.0.html Tons and tons of great info. Look for the topic "Can I put a rifle barrel on a shotgun frame?"
you can still build your combo gun. Just buy the new rifle you wanted and have your barrel fit to it. If you a buy a new rifle, you can send your 44 barrel and the Sb2 frame to Ilion and they will fit it for you.

Quote from: demented on October 15, 2011, 07:14:05 PM

My SB-2 frame is included in the list of frames that won't take high pressure cartridges. I should have looked here before I bought the rifle.

Not sure which reciever you have, but if it in fact is an SB2 frame 99 and newer you should be able to fit other barrels your self(unless it is the 10guage frame)

Lonny

handimaniac · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2011, 02:14:05 AM »

Thanks for the replies and several pm's. I don't plan to ignore the warning - just curious as to the reason for it. The main reason for my confusion (and perhaps others?) would appear to be the online manual showing the same frame part number for every caliber.

Thanks also for your kind welcomes and all the great info and camaraderie this forum seems to have!

Kent

thejanitor · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2011, 07:29:30 AM »

And as Demented pointed out there was a series of years that the recievers were "outsourced" and the company now owned by Remington will not fit with heavy recoil high pressure chamberings.... it is also in the FAQ in the list of serial number prefixes showing year of MFG. If you write down the list of pre- letters that the company won't fit to and keep it in your wallet, when you do go look at used Handis somewhere you will already know if the company won't add the higher pressure barrel.
* any reciever sent in must pass an inspection before they will fit anything to it, SB1 or SB2 it is on the H&R accessory barrel program web page.
Good luck and have fun, MANY here love the .357 Handi! thejanitor

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2011, 10:42:05 AM »

H&R has changed their barrel fitting policy, they won't fit any rifle barrels to frames made before 1999. $:-\$

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

thejanitor · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2011, 11:11:06 AM »

Dang I thought it was only a 5 year or so window in there that was in the "red zone" on the serial number year search page...... I guess a serial prefix list in your pocket when shopping may still help then. But Sorry I mis-advised in the previous post.
thejanitor

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2011, 12:23:52 PM »

Tim, Thanks for posting about the pre-99 frames. I must have missed that before. Now I know I can go P or newer and be safe

JMcDonald · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2011, 07:11:24 PM »

I'm still really curious how they figure that a frame that can handle .44mag will "blow up" if a .223 or .30-30 barrel is attached to it.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:58:27 AM »

Quote from: JMcDonald on October 16, 2011, 07:11:24 PM

I'm still really curious how they figure that a frame that can handle .44mag will "blow up" if a .223 or .30-30 barrel is attached to it.

I don't know about blowing up, but they haven't done the testing required to find out, and they have no real reason to, the SB1 357 and 44 mags were R&D'd specifically to take advantage of the Indiana pistol chambered rifle deer season market, there is no such market for the 223 or 30-30, so they aren't going to spend the $20k testing on either of them when they have a perfectly good platform in the SB2.

Tim

vincewarde · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:38:33 PM »

Quote from: JMcDonald on October 16, 2011, 07:11:24 PM

I'm still really curious how they figure that a frame that can handle .44mag will "blow up" if a .223 or .30-30 barrel is attached to it.

Simple - the steel in the shotgun frame used in the .357 and .44 mag is not as strong as that used in the other rifles. For the intended use it doesn't need to be.

Full pressure rifle cartridges generate A LOT more pressure than even the most powerful shotgun rounds. Something very bad WILL HAPPEN if you put a full power rifle barrel on a shotgun frame.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:53:22 PM »

Pick up some SB2 frames off the classifieds and then sell your SB1's and you'll always be good to go! $:-\$

A true Handiholic could never do this, since they have to have one of everything!

If H&R makes it, they have to have it!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:55:00 PM »

Quote from: vincewarde on October 19, 2011, 01:38:33 PM

..the steel in the shotgun frame used in the .357 and .44 mag is not as strong as that used in the other rifles.

SB1 shotgun frames aren't steel, they're cast iron, unlike SB2 frames which are heat treated, investment cast alloy steel.

Tim

manatee1947 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2011, 03:23:19 PM »

The only one I tried, with very good results, was a 22 Hornet on a 20ga frame. I would not want to put any standard rifle cartridge on one, or a 454 Casull or a 500 S&W.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:55:41 AM »

I'm just saying, I really don't understanding how they feel a .44mag only needs a "weak" frame, but that .30-30, .223, or especially .22 Hornet loadings deserve or even need the SB2 frame. Even the .30-30 has no greater internal forces than a .44mag (very similar internal ballistics).

I guess it just doesn't make sense to try to save money on SB1 frames for .44mag when they are still putting .22 Hornets or even .223s on the "expensive" SB2 frames. And, if the SB1 frame can handle .44mag, why they don't even consider fitting their lower-end calibers (specifically .22 Hornet, .223, and even .30-30) onto them for customers who want to take advantage of their barrel program.

I suppose my real rant is that the system is quite arbitrary.

Lon371 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:33:12 PM »

Could be they don't want to be liable. Someone wildcating or thnking, if this is ok then this should be ok(KABOOM)

Lonny

tacklebury · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2011, 03:22:58 PM »

If you look at bolt thrust pressures exerted to the rear in the wiki chart or other similar breakdowns you will see that generally straight walled cases like .44 and .357 use up most of their pressure on the side walls of the chamber. Bottle necked cartridges especially redirect more thrust rearward. A .45 acp is only 17k psi thrust while the lowly .223 is 30k! That's where the SB1 ductile Iron frame is weakest at rearward pressures. Plus being iron, not hardened steel, it will stretch with repeated firings of something with that much thrust. It might be fine for years, then one day, POOF!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_thrust

smokehouserex · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:05:32 PM »

Hello tackelbury:
Thank you for your explanation to handimaniac about the bolt thrust on the low pressure receivers. I have a old 30-30 bbl that I bought from a gunsmith in the early 80's, and I was told it was fine to put it on my Topper Jr. 490 shotgun. I did and fired it less than 15 times as it was not very accurate, I put it away for 25 years or so.
I came across a youth model syn. stock in 243 used but like new. I was interested in finding out something about it and I came upon this sight. I have been very impressed by the number of knowledgeable people, as I have read over 100 hours here before joining the GBO Outdoors Website. I am retired and have a lot of time and this is the Best website that I have seen to date.
I would like to say THANK YOU to all here as you have helped me get back in my shop and off the TV. This may not seem like much to some people but in the last few months I have built a couple old mausers in 30-06 and made some repairs that have been put aside since the heart surgery 3 years ago.
Could you tell me how I can put the 30-30 bbl. to use as I have a 1980's 410, 20ga, 45-70 shikari and the 243 and none can be used for this project.
Again I say to all on this forum, THANK YOU SO MUCH for this forum and thanks for any suggestions that you may have.
safety first
HM

mechanic · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »

If the 243 is on it's own factory receiver, you could put the 30-30 barrel on the same receiver....

Ben

smokehouserex · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:54:03 PM »

Hello mechanic:
Thanks for the response, the 243 is a modern rifle, and I didn't think the bbls from the 80's were interchangeable with the new ones, thanks again. Will give it a try.
safety first
HM

smokehouserex · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:32:10 PM »

Hello mechanic:
I just tried your suggestion and it fits an the lock-up is tight, no wobble or looseness anywhere. I may put the 243 back for a while as I do have a lot of 30-30 loads for a ss weapon, I loaded a number of 147fmj some time ago as well as some 130's, now it's time to shoot some. The 30-30 bbl has a BSA red dot sight on it. Thanks again, this is almost like getting a new gun. lol
Many thanks
safety first
HM

mechanic · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2011, 06:06:25 PM »

Just be sure you got a little free play in the release lever, and no gap at the breech and you're good to go. That little "thurty thurty" doe's not have nearly the pressure of a 243....

Ben