Getting sorta sick of this 35 Whelen

[jim36]

Well after waiting almost 10 months for a new barrel (35w), it finally showed up. Took it to the range. 10 t0 15 % FTF. Would not fire the reloads. They didn't even do the trigger job as I requested. Sent it back on their dime. Less than two weeks turn-a-round. Great, I thought. Went to the range this morning, and guess what? She fired three times and gave up the ghost. The three times she did fire, I had to pull the hammer back two or three times to make it fire. Now it wont fire at all. Just makes light firing pin marks on the primer. Took off the hammer extension. No luck there. Guess I'll have to call CS, and get "another shipping label". Thank goodness my 270, 30 30 and 45 70 all shot MOA    Between my 35 Whelen and Nancy Pelosi, I'm sick of both of them.
                                     Jim   <")))><

[quickdtoo]

Sorry to hear that Jim, how do the rounds fit in the chamber, are they flush with the chamber face or recessed slightly? How's firing pin protrusion?  Anything less than .040" will be troublesome, I've been making mine near .060" when I can by removing material from the face of the hammer so it pushes the firing pin out further before the hammer stops against the frame, doesn't work on all of them tho. Off center pin strikes have been a problem with some primers too if it's very far out.

Good luck,

Tim

[Sourdough]

When a big corporation buys up the compatition, quality and service of the lesser known brands gos right down the tubes.

[Tractorsaw1]

Jim, I agree with Tim, my pin only extended .032.  Some factory remingtons would fire, some would not.  Take a good look at your cases that went boom & compare the necks with ones that didn't.  My experience here is that some (most all) brass have huge radii between the neck and shoulder, that allows the case to slide in deeper when it gets hit, at least with remington.  When they don't go off, barely crack open the action & see if the round is sitting flush, or sticking in below the breech face, go slow & run your finger over it before it gets to the point of extraction.  I would bet money if you only neck size those once fired cases they go off.  At this point, I wouldn't send it back.  I modified the hammer on mine so the pin is know going out to .055 & installed the wolf spring.  I haven't seen it mentioned, but i did my own trigger job, it was set at 3-1/4 lbs, but once i put that wolf spring in, it is now at 2-3/4?  This week my .375 expander should show up to take care of the shoulder radii issues.

[jim36]

Tim    Measured the protrusion on the FP. It was 47 thou. Also checked the chamber face with some of the cases from a couple of weeks ago and the ones that fired today. The cases that did not fire had a slight recess while in the chamber. Firing pin indentions were pretty much in the center. The ones that did fire (empty cases) did remain flush with the breech. This was with factory ammo and reloads. Today she shot one reload and two factory loads. I know I tried at least a dozen and NONE would fire after the original three. Transfer bar and everything looks ok, but she won't go bang. Do I need to send it back or take some of the material off the hammer. You know it is new, so I really lean toward sending it back to Rem. You know I put together a 35 w on an old Savage 110 action and she shoots anything I put in the chamber.  I want to hunt with this Handi during the primitive season. BUT, I have a 45 70 Handi that shoots lights out. I could use it if I had too, but I wanna shoot this Whelen. I'm open for all suggestions.  Thanks Guys
                                        Jim    <"))><



  <"))><

[quickdtoo]

Fired rounds will have zero headspace since they're fired formed now, that's pretty normal, if the fired rounds will rechamber and the action will lock up fully, reprime a few of those cases and see if they'll all pop, if not, there's another problem, bad hammer spring, bad pin, etc.

Being a new firearm and since you're not in a hurry, contact them and get it fixed right, maybe they'll bend their rules a little and do the trigger job for all your trouble too, it may not qualify due to their current policy, and then again, maybe the gunsmith just didn't get the order for the trigger job, I'd recommend putting a hang tag on the trigger guard that you want a ~3˝lb trigger, then at least their smith will see it.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,196858.msg1099004793.html#msg1099004793

[Darreld Walton]

The .35 Whelen, wonderful round that it is, has always been plagued with this problem, ever since the first rifles were built, and the only option was opening up '06 cases.
The shoulder is small, and not all chambers are cut the same, even on factory guns.  I've heard of the same problem on spankin' new 700 Remingtons, as well.
Handloading is about the only option, short of a new barrel, or setting the barrel back and cutting a new chamber.
One thing that you should know, and I've experienced it in several rifles, is that 'deep' chambers in the Whelen, or 'short' shouldered rounds, if you manage to get them to ignite, almost certainly will give cracked/separated/stressed cases after firing.  What happens is that the firing pin, if long enough, will push the short round forward, giving a good amount of excess headspace.  The neck will seal and grab on firing, but the back of the case will stretch to the breech face, and give separations.  Bad juju.
For my loads, even with spankin' new Remington cases, I open the neck up with a .366 or .375 expander ball, then size the cases back down in the Whelen size die so that the brass will just let the bolt or action close on it.  What that does is in essence, create a new shoulder that holds the round back, and lessens the chance of stretching so badly.
One other thing that I've done occasionally is to seat the bullet out to give the same effect, but you MUST use a load that is reduced, or at least just a 'starting' load from data, then neck sizing the fireformed cases and segregating them for use only in that rifle.
If you're having ignition problems in a Handi with factory rounds, the chamber or ammunition is most likely out of spec, and the only solution, if you don't or won't load your own,  is to set the barrel back, rechamber, or fit a new barrel with a good chamber.
Inspect the interior and exterior of EVERY .35 Whelen case after firing for signs of stretching!

[petemi]

Darreld, you obviously know what your're doing.  I envy your exertise.  These posts tell me one thing......I don't want to mess with a .35 Whelen........35 Reming-ding-dong yes.  I've got about enough rifles to handle aout anything I want to do.  The .35 Rem and 7.62 X 39 should be enough adders.

Pete

[NFG]

Darreld said most of what I would do...here are a few more thoughts.

It does sound like the ammo is the problem and/or the chamber might be a little too long.

Some things to do...check to see if the hammer is dragging anywhere...slowing down the hammer can cause mis/no fires.  Drag marks along the sides or a hangup along the hammer arc.  Cock the hammer, hold your hammer with your thumb, pull the trigger ALL the way back and let the hammer down slowly to feel if it hangs up...be SURE to hold the trigger back all the way...I have to be carefull to do so because my trigger finger's are "highly educated" to be light and I have "fondled" all the triggers on my NEF's.  I get a misfire now and then by not holding the trigger back far and long enough.

To check the actual pin protusion, pull off the trigger and hammer, fold back the transfer bar and use a pin punch to push the firing pin IN as far as it will go, then measure it...pull out the firing pin spring and push the firing pin in as far as it will go and measure it again.  Your measurement of 0.047" should be plenty but maybe the firing pin spring is stretched somehow or is getting spring bound.  If the firing pin WITHOUT the spring is sticking out a bunch...most of mine are close to 0.100" that way...and pushing the firing pin in with a punch until the spring is compressed all the way doesn't give you MORE than 0.047", then there is something in the firing pin hole causing the problem.


Next...or first before you start tearing things apart...I would check the sizing die and the shoulder position of a fired round.  Hornady headspace gauges are a godsend in these cases, but I can't seem to get anyones attention on that point...anyway...back out your sizing die a couple of turns and screw in the primer popper a bit...so it WON't touch the case shoulder, but will pop out the primmer...size the case and use it as a DUMMY.  Set up your seating die and back out the seating punch 4-5 turns...seat a bullet...insert the round into the chamber and see if it will lock...it shouldn't...if it does, pull out the bullet...you can pull the bullet by removing the dies, get a pair of pliers, run the round up through the hole, grab the bullet with the pliers and pull down on the handle...resize the case again...back out the bullet seating punch a couple more turns and start over...

Is the picture starting to form...basically you want the bullet to engage into the lands 0.015 - 0.020" or so and still lock the action.  This will take out ALL the headspace and form a round the fits the chamber completely.  Use any bullet weight but long enough to hit the lands IF the chamber and throat are WAY out of whack...I would use a 200-250gr RN as I've used RN's in doing basically the same thing in military rifles...use a beginning load of slow burning powder for the bullet weight...or a few grains lower if you feel more comfortable...you want enough pressure to form the round and at least 75% of case capacity...I've done this procedure a hundred times or more without any ill effects.

Follolwing this procedure should give you have a nice fireformed case...THEN set your sizer to size the neck, the action to lock, but NOT touch the shoulder...this takes a few tries...you want the chamber shoulder to stop the forward progress of the case at ZERO headspace.  Most of my NEF's AND T/C are setup this way...I want ZERO headspace with sized cases in these shooters...only once in a while do I need to push the shoulders back and then only about 0.001".

When you have the case setup this way the 0.047" of the firing pin should be sufficient to fire any round at all times. 

Drop a bullet into the chamber...tap it just a bit...measure from the barrel face to the base of the bullet...measure the bullet length...add the two together, this will give you the TOTAL overall length of a loaded round for THAT SPECIFIC bullet touching the lands...or you can stick a rod down the bore and measure from the frame face and mark the spot....drop a bullet into the chamber and tap it slightly, then using the same rod, measure to the bullet nose, mark it and measure between the marks.  Either way works....be accurate and precise.

Do several cases this way and start load workup with whatever bullet you like, following the above method of finding the "bullet touching lands", begin with a mid range load of whatever powder you like and work upwards with the powder amounts...START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW.

MOST larger calibers shoot the most accurate with the bullet seated this way or slightly into the lands and loaded to about 90% of max pressure.  This is how I set up ALL my rifles starting at 30 cal and going up...22cals seem to like about 0.025" shorter...6mm and 25 cals like about 0.015", 6.5mm a little less etc...but this information isn't cast in stone...you have to find the best spot by trial and error so to speak.

This sound like a long drawn out process but it is really very simple, quick, works and saves on components.

If this DOESN'T solve your problem then send it back to NEF...the hammer nose MIGHT be too long, or something else might becausing the problem...but I think it is just the chamber being out of spec...both NEF AND T/C have these problems.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with the 35 Whelen...it has PLENTY of shoulder to work with and the NEF hammer strike is hardly enough to reform a case shoulder.  I've always found it best to use corn meal, grits, etc to fireform a case UP, over expanding the neck and squeezing down, but I've use both methods, butdoing the expand/squeeze works the brass more than I like to do initially and sometimes you need to do more than one step...I fireformed 416 Hornady brass up to 50 cal with ONE corn meal fireform, where as I would have had to do several intermediate and one final squeeze if I had gone the other way and probably needed an annealing step also.

One thing more...buy a carbide pcket uniformer and uniform the primer pockets...sometimes if you don't get the primer seated properly the hammer strike WILL move the primer and cause misfires...you HAVE to be sure the primer is seated on the bottom of the pocket but NOT crushed...a hand primer will give you the feel when the primer seater on a press won't.

Luck

[wreckhog]

This thread is curing me of almost any desire for a .35 Whelen. Given that it is a dangerous game cartridge, hmmmm. Would an Ackley Improved version be any better? Might as well just ream a .357 to get that......

[jim36]

What great info on the part of Darreld and NFG. Really good stuff. I have become obsessed with getting this thing to shoot, especially with the reloads.
I put a 35W barrel on a Savage 110 and it shoot anything I put in the chamber. I sent it back to Remington last Saturday. This is the third time for it to be teched-up. Since it is new, it is all on their dime. With the help of Rem. and you guys, I'm gonna make this thing shoot. This 35W is an old cartridge that will do anything that you call for it to do. I ain't giving up on it.
                                                                           Jim <")))><

PS: Since I fish a lot, it might make a good trotline weight.

[petemi]

I don't understand the problem at Rem.  Back to them 2 times and still not fixed   Did they not shoot it?  If all they did is spec it out and it conformed, I don't want one.  Its gotta mean their manufacturing specs are off.

Pete

[NFG]

Hey...any time you want to get rid of it or trade it for another trotline weight...gimme a jingle....I have SEVERAL very good NEF weight's I will swap....   LOL.

Long chambers really put the monkey "stuff" in the milk, and most reloades just follow what the die makers put in their setup information.  It takes a while to work out just how many ways there are to make a pie when you'r first learning to bake, and even with all the forums on reloading, much of the "hows and whys" and little nuances never get fully covered.

Luck

[jim36]

Pete   They claimed that they test fired it. The bore was dirty, so I guess they fired it. When I got it back last week, it shot three times and gave up the ghost. Had it try 2 to 3 times to make it fire. People that have a gooden swear by them. I've waited in line and waited on women all my life, so what's a couple of more weeks for an old man to wait? If I die before it gets back, what the heck? It'll give the grandkids something to worry about.
                                                                            <")))><

[quickdtoo]

I've got two 35 Whelens, a 1996 RMEF Ultra and a 2006 Handi, they both work fine, I did have 5 pieces of new Rem 35W brass that had too much headspace right out of the box, the rest of it worked fine in the RMEF, the 5 pieces worked fine after I loaded them long into the lands to fireform them.  The 2006 worked fine with factory Rem ammo used by the previous owner, also works now as an improved-improved version with no problems with brass fireformed using a false shoulder to headspace on (see the FAQs). I have had some misfires with CCI primers tho prior to increasing pin stroke and adding a Wolff hammer, but now have more confidence using Rem 9˝, CCI seem to be more prone to fail with off center pin strikes in my experience.

Tim

[petemi]

I've gotta say there's something inherently wrong with a rifle that won't work all the time, every time.  If so many folks are having problems with them, why don't they do an about face and fix it.   A malfunctioning .35 Whelen could cost a person his or her life facing dangerous game.  This is the exact reason I got rid of all my ejectors.

Pete