Tiller the baby killer!!!!!!

[Matt]

Hey Billy I am still waiting on the answer to my question.... typical liber... run from questions they cant answer....    

[billy_56081]

Been out and about back now.

Bud light and mexican food.

[Matt]

Been out and about back now.

Bud light and mexican food.

Sounds like the diet of a good christian... oh yeah you got an answer for my questions yet...?

[JonnyC]

BILLY-  YOU KNOW I ADOPTED SEVERAL MINORITY CHILDREN SO THEY CAN HAVE BETTER LIVES.-YOU CALLED ME A USELESS UNIC. I CALLED YOU A RACIST BECAUSE WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT MY CHILDREN. I'M FINISHED WITH YOU- SAY WHAT YOU WANT ABOUT ME NOW- OTHERS HAVE HEARD MY SIDE.

[powderman]

newstart. You are very adept at twisting words to suit yourself, like someone else here I'm not allowed to mention. You are not worth replying to. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  TM..I don't know where all that quoted conversation came from..but I never said the killer in the story (either one) was doing God's work.
  In Tiller's case, I feel quite confident that he was not doing God's work, but now that is between God and him...The other killer  who knows ? God often uses strange individuals to exact His judgements, in the case of Balaam, He even used a jackass (as He often does).  ...But then, I assume the killer of Tiller already figured he wouldn't do the crime if he wasn't willing to do the time.

  If you are a NT Christian, please show me ..book, line & verse, where Jesus said it is Scriptural to zapp... "inconvenient" children. The Christianity I have always been involved in teaches self denial and self control...and if you do "screw up" .."quit yourself as a man" (or woman) (1 Cor 16:13) and be ready to pay the piper. Don't force an innocent baby to pay (in blood) for your sins.

[Matt]

 If you are a NT Christian, please show me ..book, line & verse, where Jesus said it is Scriptural to zapp... "inconvenient" children. The Christianity I have always been involved in teaches self denial and self control...and if you do "screw up" .."quit yourself as a man" (or woman) (1 Cor 16:13) and be ready to pay the piper. Don't force an innocent baby to pay (in blood) for your sins.

You lost me... What does 1 Cor 16:13 have to do with abortion?

Pick your flavor:

International Standard Version (©2008)
Remain alert. Keep standing firm in your faith. Keep on being courageous and strong.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Be alert. Be firm in the Christian faith. Be courageous and strong.

King James Bible
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

American King James Version
Watch you, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

American Standard Version
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

Bible in Basic English
Be on the watch, unmoved in the faith, and be strong like men.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith,do manfully, and be strengthened.

Darby Bible Translation
Be vigilant; stand fast in the faith; quit yourselves like men; be strong.

English Revised Version
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

Webster's Bible Translation
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, acquit yourselves like men, be strong.

Weymouth New Testament
Be on the alert; stand firm in the faith; acquit yourselves like men; be strong.

World English Bible
Watch! Stand firm in the faith! Be courageous! Be strong!

Young's Literal Translation
Watch ye, stand in the faith; be men, be strong;


Geneva Study Bible

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

People's New Testament

16:13 Watch ye. Be on the watch; a matter very needful in as gay and corrupt a city as Corinth.

Wesley's Notes

16:13 To conclude. Watch ye - Against all your seen and unseen enemies. Stand fast in the faith - Seeing and trusting him that is invisible. Acquit yourselves like men - With courage and patience. Be strong - To do and suffer all his will.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

13. He shows that they ought to make their hopes of salvation to depend not on Apollos or any other teacher; that it rests with themselves. "Watch ye": for ye are slumbering. "Stand": for ye are like men tottering. "Quit you like men; be strong": for ye are effeminate (1Co 16:14). "Let all your things be done with charity" (1Co 8:1; 13:1): not with strifes as at present [Chrysostom]. "In the faith" which was assailed by some (1Co 15:1, 2, 12-17).

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

16:13-18 A Christian is always in danger, therefore should ever be on the watch. He should be fixed in the faith of the gospel, and never desert or give it up. By this faith alone he will be able to keep his ground in an hour of temptation. Christians should be careful that charity not only reigns in their hearts, but shines in their lives. There is a great difference between Christian firmness and feverish warmth and transport. The apostle gave particular directions as to some who served the cause of Christ among them. Those who serve the saints, those who desire the honour of the churches, and to remove reproaches from them, are to be thought much of, and loved. They should willingly acknowledge the worth of such, and all who laboured with or helped the apostle

Matt

[Swampman]

I'm glad I don't have to do anything to be a Christian.  Christ's grace is sufficent.  You guys keep working your way to heaven.  I'll save you a seat.

[Matt]

Hey Swampy... the way I understand it to be a Christian has only one prerequisite and that is covered under John 3:16 after that nothing else matters. You ask for forgiveness and it is granted because all sins have been bought and paid for by Jesus. Now all though I disagree with some of the beliefs the ground work is good for building ones morality.

I don’t know about you but to me if I was one of these self professed modern christians I would be more worried about my own judgment day and a lot less about others.
Matt

[ironglow]

  Matt, did you read my post? If you did you would note that I was not relating directly to abortion, but to the whole Christian walk.
 
   "watch ye,stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong" (1 Cor 16:13 KJV)

  Read my post again, I said "and if you do 'screw up', quit yourself as a man (or woman) and be ready to pay the piper. Don't force an innocent baby to pay (in blood) for your sins".

  If perchance you still think that somehow, I have erred...perhaps you can quote where Jesus gave permission to liquidate "inconvenient" baby boys & girls. ...Book, line & verse please.

[Matt]

  If perchance you still think that somehow, I have erred...perhaps you can quote where Jesus gave permission to liquidate "inconvenient" baby boys & girls. ...Book, line & verse please.

Ok I get what you’re saying, you want people to take responsibility if they get someone pregnant, the whole get married sort of thing or are you fine with just child support and visitations whenever it is convenient.

You know I look at it this way, many of those who get abortions often could not afford a child and thus would pass the burden onto the tax payers. Now I do agree adoption is an alternative but umm have you looked at any of the CPS’s and the mortality rate for foster children… looks to me either way the child is screwed. Looking at it from the Christian perspective the child is not of the age of accountability so therefore has a one way ticket straight to heaven. That is if there is a soul in the fetus at the time of abortion and if not then what difference did it make anyway.

Sorry but I feel  that the decision should be left up to those who created the baby in the first place and in the cases where only the woman is there to make it, then it should be hers so between the involved parties and God only. I have no dog in the fight and thus should not judge or pass judgment on anyone for what they feel they need to do when it only affects them.

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

That one right there kinda makes me think that there is a very very very very very slim chance Swampy may be closer to right than I thought... he's still wrong of course 

Here is only a small sampling of biblical commandments or threats to kill children:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Then there are the dire warnings of Jesus in the New Testament:
"For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the womb that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."--Luke 23:29

Now I am still waiting for the scripture that says it is against Gods Will...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do Churches Support Abortion Rights?

Numerous Christian denominations and religious groups agree that the bible does not condemn abortion and that abortion should continue to be legal. These include:
American Baptist Churches-USA
American Ethical Union
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee
American Jewish Congress
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Episcopal Church
Lutheran Women's Caucus
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Unitarian Universalist Association
United Church of Christ
United Methodist Church
United Synagogue of America
Women's Caucus Church of the Brethren
YWCA
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
Catholics for Free Choice
Evangelicals for Choice

Belief that "a human being exists at conception" is a matter of faith, not fact. Legislating antiabortion faith would be as immoral and unAmerican as passing a law that all citizens must attend Catholic mass!

The bible does not condemn abortion; but even if it did, we live under a secular constitution, not in a theocracy. The separation of church and state, the right to privacy, and women's rights all demand freedom of choice.
---------------------------------------
source for tax payer burden comment: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html

Matt

[ironglow]

 First paragraph..One can still "make the best of a bad situation" and recieve a blessing from God and later, the child.

 Second paragraph..Whether a child is allowed to live or die ia all candor, should not be a "dollars & cents" proposition. As in the case of above..these problems could be solved with adoption. History is replete with happy, productive and useful adoptees.

 Your third paragraph..the decision should be "left up to those (or the ONE) who created it"...so do I..but there is lots of room for discussion there..   Many fine people born out of wedlock.

   The threats to kill children you listed are all OT..the New Covenant changes many things.

[Swampman]

Many fine people born out of wedlock

I agree, but

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Adoption might be by a gay couple, or a single child molester in this day and age.  Adoption is very expensive and very difficult.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. HEH. Never thought I'd see the day that you got MATT to read a Bible, too bad he doesn't understand it.  Going to work now. POWDERMAN. 

[Oldtimer]

IG, I have held off posting on this topic to answer your challenge for a Lutheran to respond.  I checked and Reformation is affiliated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, as is my church.  Tiller was ushering at the time he was killed.  I was too that Sunday.  

There is little I can say about abortion that would change your mind regarding Tiller.  I will note that we are a creedal church and use the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds.  We accept them as faithful witnesses to our beliefs.  The older version of the Apostles Creed used the statement "He will come to judge the quick and the dead."  This has been changed to "He will come to judge the living and the dead," sometime in the 70's.  Quickening was the sensation of movement in the womb that many ancient cultures took to mark the investment of the soul into the fetus.  Prior to this, loss of the fetus would not have been considered the loss of life.  Moving this to the time of conception is a modern idea that comes from medical science, not from the Bible.  As an aside, the last time I heard the older version of the Apostles Creed was at the funeral of my opthalmologist in a Southern Baptist Church.  None of this informs Tiller's work, since it occurred after the time that quickening would normally occur.

In my own congregation we have people who are strongly opposed to abortion in any circumstance, and others who fully support it.  We Lutherans believe in the binding of conscience.  We do not consider this concept only limited to Lutherans.  Therefore, I have to accept that your conscience binds you to your beliefs about Tiller.  The thing is that we then are held together by being the body of Christ, not by beliefs on one topic or another.  We do not judge a man's salvation, as that is the province of God, since none of us deserves His grace.  This does not keep us from sitting in judgment on a jury, as this does not affect salvation.  

Denominationally, Lutheran churches tend not to be pastor-driven.  Some are, but it is not the norm.  Pastors are particularly called to administer sacraments and preach the word.  Laity do not do so, but it is for good order of the church, not on Scriptural grounds.  My pastor is away at synod this weekend and I will be in the pulpit for the early service and the vice-president of council for the late service.  Either of us could administer Eucharist, but will not do so, simply because we try to maintain an overall structure that will allow fellow Lutherans to fully join in worship without having to try to figure out local practice and liturgy.  As Luther said, "Gold is still gold, even if a baby (the word in German can also mean a fool) is wearing it."

As for disfellowship, the pastor is only in at an early stage.  If the pastor cannot resolve the issue, then it is referred to church council.  The decision is the church council's, and if there is an appeal, it would go to the synod.  The decision of the synod would be final.  

By our Lutheran point of view, even if we accept what you have said about Tiller, then it is our role to love each other as Christ loved us, to perservere through adversity, and to carry the message of God's love and grace to the world.  God's weakness is greater than our greatest strength.  It is God who will grant grace and salvation and it is not based on any work on our part, good or bad.  Especially if we accept your view of Tiller, then we have an even stronger reason to offer him our love.

God's peace be yours.

[ironglow]

I got interrupted in my posting so will continue;

   The New Covenant changes many things. Matt pointed out where children were threatened or slain in the OT times, but in the New Covenant Jesus says...
   "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones" (Luke 17:2)
  Moreover, Jesus said he has angels watching over each child and they report back TO HIM (of violaters).

          Not to be forlorn, Jesus offers forgiveness for all sins..and these are no different, but the offender must turn his life to Jesus and ask for forgiveness..at which point the sin would be erased.


  BTW: Matt, those organizations & groups you listed are not impressive to anyone who truly takes the Bible and Jesus seriously. If they were to be compared to the political spectrum, they would be in a class with the ACLU, NARAL, radical feminists, drug legalizers and ACORN..
  ...But don't take my word for it, ask others here that are obviously strong Bible students..

  Swampy;
  
  I cannot concur. The condemnation of the bastard again, is OT (De 23:2) With the New Covenant, it all changes....

  For instance, Jesus says He is not willing that any perish, but all come to repentance...be born again. (2 Peter 3:9).

 In (Rev 22:17) He says, since He is of "living water" ....."whosoever will" may partake of this living water that gives eternal life, to be spent with Him.

[Swampman]

"New Covenant" is a modernist way of explaining the Bible, which they don't understand.

[billy_56081]

BILLY-  YOU KNOW I ADOPTED SEVERAL MINORITY CHILDREN SO THEY CAN HAVE BETTER LIVES.-YOU CALLED ME A USELESS UNIC. I CALLED YOU A RACIST BECAUSE WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT MY CHILDREN. I'M FINISHED WITH YOU- SAY WHAT YOU WANT ABOUT ME NOW- OTHERS HAVE HEARD MY SIDE.

JonnyC
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JonnyC
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is your proof-"I do have some nappy hair.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Billy- your a dumb racist and your posts prove it.


First contact from jonnyC.

And Matt, I did answer each and every one of your questions.

[JonnyC]

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

The GOD I know would NEVER punish and innocent child[person].

[ironglow]

  TM7;
      You said you are not in favor of abortion, and although I wish you had not used the qualifier "as a birth control method" I will still offer my apologies.
  As far as the economic reasons, there is a much better "safety net" in place than there was some 60 years ago, when there was much less out-of-wedlock problems..aid to dependant children, WIC, food stamps, medical care.
   It seems that something important was lost just about the time promiscuity & illegitimacy increased along with deteriorating cultural values. Could that have been a rebelling and refusal to recognize God for who He really is ?

   Again..sow the wind, reap the whirlwind..    Is our country in the midst of a tornado right now ?

[Swampman]

The GOD I know would NEVER punish an innocent child

The God I know keeps his Word.

Psalms 58:3): “The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” 

[ironglow]

  Oldtimer;
  Thanks for your answer, of course I believe in some but not all those things. I will not judge another's salvation, which is why I didn't vote in the poll. I respect you for your strong beliefs and accept your explanation as genuine.

  Swampy:
   To make it easier for you, wherever I wrote "New Covenant", you can just think "New Testament" if that will help you in your exegesis..

[Swampman]

But that isn't a "New Covenant."  Man created the Old & New Testaments.  It's just one book.  It's all His-story.