450 marlin or 358win brushgun

[bja105]

I don't see much problem with building a 450 Marlin on that short action.

I built two 458 Win mags on Savage long actions this year. 

1st was a 20" stainless barrel on an older staggered feed action, originally a 7mm Mag.  I didn't need to change bolt heads on this.  I added a limbsaver, which was needed.  I needed to bend the sheet metal mag box to feed better, but it only works perfectly with two in the mag, one in the chamber.  If I cared enough, I could get a 458 mag box from midway.  I had a 3x weaver, but changed it to a 2-7 Nikkon shotgun scope.


2nd 458 I built for my cousin.  It is a new center feed action that was originally a 300 win mag.  I kept the 300 barrel for a different project.  The center feed action is much much much better!  Feeds perfectly every belted mag I tried with it (7mm, 338, 458.)  I acquired a new detachable magazine stock, with the new P.A.D. recoil pad.  That new recoil pad is as good as the limbsaver.  This rifle got a blued, 24" barrel.  I put on a 2.5x weaver scope, which my cousin changed for a 3-9.




The 458 is a belted, long action round with very little body taper.  The 450 Marlin is a belted, short action round with very little body taper.  The 450 belt is slightly thicker, but I don't see that as a problem for feeding.

You will need a new bolt head, (buy a new extractor, ejector, and springs too.)  The magazine box may need to be opened, use needle nose pliers.  If you mess it up, Midway sells new magazine boxes.  E.R. Shaw will make you a 450 Marlin barrel, you need the small shank Savage.  You can buy headspace gages, or use new brass.  Good luck!

As far as "brush busting,"  I read an article years ago that identified the 458 as the best, shot through branches into a target.  I don't care, I wanted a 458, so thats what I built!

[cwlongshot]

I don't see much problem with building a 450 Marlin on that short action.

I built two 458 Win mags on Savage long actions this year. 

1st was a 20" stainless barrel on an older staggered feed action, originally a 7mm Mag.  I didn't need to change bolt heads on this.  I added a limbsaver, which was needed.  I needed to bend the sheet metal mag box to feed better, but it only works perfectly with two in the mag, one in the chamber.  If I cared enough, I could get a 458 mag box from midway.  I had a 3x weaver, but changed it to a 2-7 Nikon shotgun scope.


2ND 458 I built for my cousin.  It is a new center feed action that was originally a 300 win mag.  I kept the 300 barrel for a different project.  The center feed action is much much much better!  Feeds perfectly every belted mag I tried with it (7mm, 338, 458.)  I acquired a new detachable magazine stock, with the new P.A.D. recoil pad.  That new recoil pad is as good as the limbsaver.  This rifle got a blued, 24" barrel.  I put on a 2.5x weaver scope, which my cousin changed for a 3-9.




The 458 is a belted, long action round with very little body taper.  The 450 Marlin is a belted, short action round with very little body taper.  The 450 belt is slightly thicker, but I don't see that as a problem for feeding.

You will need a new bolt head, (buy a new extractor, ejector, and springs too.)  The magazine box may need to be opened, use needle nose pliers.  If you mess it up, Midway sells new magazine boxes.  E.R. Shaw will make you a 450 Marlin barrel, you need the small shank Savage.  You can buy headspace gages, or use new brass.  Good luck!

As far as "brush busting,"  I read an article years ago that identified the 458 as the best, shot through branches into a target.  I don't care, I wanted a 458, so that's what I built!

 What your missing is that you started with a MAG action. The OP is starting with a std action. Your bolt face was correct for all cartridges involved, his are not. Unless he stays 358.

 I don't think any of us are knocking the caliber. (Well, I did a bit with my "upstart" comment.) But That's how I feel about it as do many many re-loaders who have been exceeding its performance for many many many years. The 45-70 is just not practile in abolt gun. The 450 Marlin IS, as long as you start with the right rifle. It sounds like you did!!  Glad they work so well for you!!

 In his case, with what he has to start with, considering all perticulars and the costs involved. The 358 is his best choice. Maybe I read it wrongly? If cost is not an issue... GO 450 MARLIN!!! 

CW

[bja105]

cwlongshot, you are right about the bolt face matching the 358.  It would do everything he wants, too.  But, if he wants to, changing the bolt head to the magnum is easy.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=378112
Its a little more work and money, but worth it if gets what he wants.

[cwlongshot]

cwlongshot, you are right about the bolt face matching the 358.  It would do everything he wants, too.  But, if he wants to, changing the bolt head to the magnum is easy.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=378112
Its a little more work and money, but worth it if gets what he wants.

 That's news!!  I had totally forgotten about the way the Savage bolt was built!! I didn't know that part was even offered like that!!

 But there is still the grinding necessary to the raceways for proper feeding. I have never done it on a Savage, but a couple times on Mauser's and Remington's and its not allot of fun. I had a Arisake 38 someone chambered for the 250 Savage. That damn thing never feed!! Its was a wonderful two shooter!! You wouldn't think of that as a problem caliber conversion but the 6.5Jap to the 250 savage is different enough to cause non feeding. Conversions with belted cases in general do not feed well.

CW

[bja105]

No grinding, either.   Savage feed rails are sheet metal that can be bent with pliers.

Of course, the original poster is long gone.....



Strangely, I have a type 38 Arisaka re-barreled  to 308.  Feeding is about the only thing it does well.

[Harry Snippe]

Brush guns are a common misconception for the most part. What folks generally mean by the term "brush gun" or brush busting gun" as it is so often referred to is an expectation on their part of a round pushing a bullet that is actually gonna "bust brush" and get that bullet to game on the other side of thick brush.

Folks it ain't gonna happen and it really don't matter what you chamber it to. In fact in a simulated test I once read about where dowel pins were placed in holes drilled into a board and used to simulate thick brush guess what gave the best performance on the target placed behind the screen of dowells?

The lowly .243 Winchester. Why you ask? Cuz it's smaller diameter tended to hit fewer dowels and thus was deflected less by the lesser contact.

Understand clearly that no matter what you shoot if it hits a limb or twig much larger than a tooth pick more than say at most ten yards and more preferably no more than 10' from your intended target changes are you ain't gonna make a killing shot regardless of what you use.

So to me a brush rifle more properly refers to a short over all length rifle with an action that can be operated quickly if needed for a second shot but more to the point it should be quick to shoulder and very accurate so you can pick a small opening thru which to send that one and only shot that matters. It should be one comfortable for you to carry at ready as you slip along slowly and quietly looking for game that has not yet seen you.

Do not expect the bullet to bust brush on the way to game as it just plain ain't gonna happen.

Bottom line. Of the two mentioned the .358 to me most closely fits the criteria of flat shooting and accurate but then the .308 likely does so even more so.

My experiance in heavy bush with the 308 and a spiral pointed bullet - is that the bullet will head south as soon as it hits a small branch or something in route . Missed three deer at short ranges that way. Some of the older hunters laughed as they always managed with their 30/30- 35 Levers and 303 Lee's.They new a blunt bullet at 2000 to 2400 FPS was better suited to the job. So From there I started using the  RN bullets . They might tubble but got there.

Oh Yeah !! My bush deer gun is now a 35 Rem Marlin . It always puts deer in the freezer If I do my part .

So my vote goes with  the 358 W and RN bullets
Happy

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  I have never had a 450 Marlin nor a desire to own one. I would stick with the old 45-70. But in a bolt gun like you are planning, the .358 is a nifty round. I have one in a 99 Sav. Haven't shot a ton of game with it maybe half a dozen head. It isn't a great pick for real open country, but I often carry it in the truck and if hunting the forest, or aspens is on the menu, then I carry it. It does kill very well. Many years ago a shooter in Ore. named Sell did some tests with brush and bullets. He felt heavier bullets at 2500 fps. Were best for "brush shooting" Slower, the deflected, faster, they exploded or deflected.  No he had a fondness for the 348 Win. so it was not surprise when he settled on the .358 as his choice. He coupled it with a .300 Ackley Short Mag. for long range and was well fixed. I think for the work involved, the .358 is the way to go. I like mine, if I were going the .45 route, it would be  in a Marlin Lever action.
Good luck.

[dgreen]

Love "Brush Guns".  Here's what I did. I took an old 98mauser chopped the barrel to 20 inches.  Did an absolute butcher/skeletonization on the stock, got chunks cut out everywhere.  Put a 2x simmons hand gun scope on a scout type base.  Shoots a 185 grain rem core-loct at about 2200fps.  Slicked the old bolt a touch, trigger was already good.  This thing is light, accurate, fast, and it just hammers deer.  Did the same thing with a rough old swede, and use the 160 round nose.  I prefer the 8mm though.  P.S. is also a real cheapo.

[yorketransport]

Build the 450 and have fun. It's a great caliber, despite what everyone says. For that matter, build both. The Savage pre-fit barrels are reasonably priced and easy to swap. So It's not like your stuck with it forever. Heck, build one and if you don't like it I'll buy the barrel from you so you can try the other caliber. I've been thinking of making a rifle just like the one you have planned. I was going to go with the 358, but only because I already have a Marlin 1895M.

Good luck!

Andrew