Author Topic: What classifies as a "Custom Gun?" Do you own one? (Read 9461 times)

Zachary · « **on:** March 14, 2003, 10:31:50 AM »

To me, there is a difference between a custom gun, and having a gun customized. For example, a factory gun can be customized by having a trigger job, glass bedding job, the barrel recrowned, the action trued-up, etc. While a true custom gun is essentially built from scratch. Such guns can cost anywhere between $1,000 to over $5,000, depending on the components used and the labor involved. As such, I have only had factory guns customized.

What do you think classifies as a custom gun and do you own one?

If you don't, what do you do to customize your particular rifle?

Zachary

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2003, 11:58:54 AM »

I'm not sure where it crosses that line. A lot of incredible rifles built by makers such as D'Arcy Echols and David Miller would be considered custom but they still retain the original (albeit) reworked factory action and many still retain the factory barrel though lapped. Some sell in the neighborhood of the tens of thousands of dollars. If a custom rifle means an aftermarket barrel, new trigger (or at least a reworked one), the action modified or polished up, new sights and either a handmade or stock made to fit you and you alone, then I have a true custom rifle. If someone sends his rifle to Kenny Jarrett for accurizing and the barrel is hand lapped and the stock made to fit (instead of being replaced) the action trued, lapped and squared and trigger worked, is it a custom rifle? Then of course there are the rifles like the Hagn where it is essentially built from the ground up (including the action and barrel) that would definitely qualify is custom.

I'm just not sure where the line is crossed between customized and true custom. :oops:

TopGun · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2003, 01:36:32 PM »

Hey guys, I think custom has many different levels--maybe anuthing that can't be had from a factory box can be considered custom. I have a Win M70 that has a hand-rail and stop, in & out, up &down butt, Jewel trigger, Redfield Palma sites. Yeah teh action is factory, but even teh bolt was modified. I consider it a custom gun. Winchester, or any one else doesn't offer these options--unless you go to a custom smith or shop--ie Moe's, Jarret, SSK, ets. I guess mine is customized, but it is custom! I also think a person can get a custom gum without all the fancy stuff, like teh rifles you mention. Jaeger Rifles are some trulyhand-made, custom, and you paid for the artwork. I think it's a tough call where the line is.

Advocate · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2003, 01:51:59 AM »

TopGun: What is a "hand rail in and out" referenced in your post about the custom/customized M-70? What is it? How does it work? Who did the work on it? Thanks.

TopGun · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2003, 09:54:34 AM »

The slotted hand-rail is in the forearm and the hand-stop & sling swivel attach to it so that when you you're slung for sitting and prone positions in a Hi-Power match, the rifle is rock steady, The in and out, up and dowb Butt plate allows one to adjust the rilfe for these positions. They're not an absolutely necessity, but each of the positions require optimal fit for head position. I did all the stoct work myself. It took time, but it's easy. I wish I had a digital camera, I'd send a pic.

Sisk Rifles · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2003, 10:29:11 AM »

I guess custom does mean different things to different folks. For me it means this : Give me a Remington rifle and I will use the reciever and bolt body and replace everything else. I guess its best to ask the smith before any work starts to be sure both are on the same page.
Charlie

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2003, 11:09:11 AM »

I think most would agree with you Charlie that constitutes a custom rifle for sure. For some even less. Of course there are some "custom" actions out there but really an action is an action is an action. Some maybe better than others but all guns start with an action. If the maker of the custom gun didn't also make the action and few do then it is no less a custom for using a Remington 700 or Winchester 70 than if using a Hall or other action considered to be custom in my opinion.

I don't personally own any rifles that are custom as I really don't have the bucks to go that route. I've had several custom barrels made however for my TCs. That's as close to custom as I've personally come.

GB

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2003, 01:40:44 PM »

I agree. Charlie is one of the most distinguished members of the gunsmithing and gunmaking community. What a honor to have him check in here and offer his expertise. Wow!!! This is impressive.

chk · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2003, 03:40:36 AM »

One thing I believe makes a custom rifle is the stock. To me a custom rifle has a stock made to fit you for your type of shooting and is not just a piece of wood or fiberglass that you grab to shoot with. The drop, LOP, comb height, and cast are all set up for you and the sights or scope you use on that rifle. GB, I have a Boyd's grey laminated JRS stock on my M70 and I love it.

Zachary · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2003, 07:37:18 AM »

Yes, I can see how a custom stock contributes to a custom rifle, but I think that there are other variables that I would think of before I think of a particular stock.

For example, most people would agree that the best, if not one of the best, true synthetic stocks are the one made by McMillan and HS Precision (and probably in that order). Granted, these company's can offer certain types of stocks with certain types of dimensions, but I look into other factors first, such as the following: barrel, action, trigger, and bedding.

The thing about true customs guns is that they can be quite expensive (but, then again, "expensive" is a relative term - to me $1,000 might be expensive, for Donald Trump, $1,000 may be chewing gum money.)

For me, the most important end result is accuracy, which is closely tied to quality for second. Granted, you can get a Savage rifle which will cost about $400 and shoot sub-inch groups all day, and get a custom rifle that will cost $2,000, $3,000, or more, and shoot with the same accuracy. However, the quality of the custom gun (components, feel, fit, and finish) are incomprable to a Savage.

The question then boils down to this: Is a custom gun really worth all that money?

Well, ask 10 different people and you will probably get 10 different answers. If everyone said "no," then how would you explain all of the different custom gun makers staying in business?

I may get a true custom gun one day, not necessarily because it is of high quality, or because it shoots great, but because it was custom built just for me. That's not to say that I am arrogant or want to be different, just that there seems to be some pride in having a gun made just for you.

In the meantime, I have my Remchesters customized by having mostly trigger jobs with the pull set at 3 lbs. Other than that, I sometimes have the barrels recrowned. In most cases, just this alone will allow my guns to shoot sub-inch with most factory ammo all day - and that's with the junk plastic stocks that the Remchesters come with.

Of course I like the Tikkas much more because, in my opinion, their fit and finish is excellent, their triggers are superb, and they don't need to have their barrels recrowned because they are already hand crowned at the factory.

Still, I have read numerous articles regarding rifles made by Jarrett, Sisk, McMillan, HS Precision, Nesika Bay, etc., and often dream about owning one. Maybe some day. :grin:

Zachary

chk · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2003, 03:39:34 AM »

Zach, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment "made for you". That is exactly what makes it custom. That is not arrogance at all. If I had a good factory barrel I could live quite well with it. I've reflected on some of Jeff Cooper's writings. He has stated much of the accuracy obtained at the bench is lost in the field by the operator. The accuracy is there within the rifle. Fired from field positions that accuracy is not normally obtainable. That is why I feel for me the stock fit is so important. It enhances field accuracy. My centerfires are tools. Art is something for the wall in the house. If fancy wood and checkering, high polished metal work, and inlays make a man happy on his custom rifle he should have it. It's just not me. Like the commercial said, "have it YOUR way". Dave

wm.f. in fla. · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2003, 04:15:34 AM »

i like the "made just for you" suggestion. quite often there is no production rifle manufactured in a particular caliber. if you use an action of your choice( mine is ruger#3) and create a rifle in your choice of caliber, it is truly a custom "made just for you". my choice was a 250/3000 because of the inherent accuracy of the round. as i stated , a ruger action, a douglas air guaged 24" barrel, and a laminated stock. the action was modified with a kepplinger single set trigger and a competition hammer. JUST FOR ME

PaulS · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2003, 12:03:17 PM »

I own two, what I consider to be custom rifles, and am happy with both.
The first is a rifle based on the Remington 700 short action. The action was reworked by a local smith who specializes in 600 meter competition arms. The action is mated to a Douglas 24 inch barrel with a 1:12 twist in 35 caliber. A Timney trigger adjusted to 4 pound pull and fitted to a Remington stock that is weighted to balance like my 3006 at an unloaded weight of 10 pounds. I spent months talking to my smith about this project and all the variables before ever spending a dime. When he found an action in good shape we began with the spending. The weapon shoots light weight pistol bullets (158 grain) to .33 inches at 100 yards and does a bit better with 180 grain bullets. (the twist is NOT too fast) I was able to keep costs down with the use of the used stock and do the final bedding myself. It was just over $800 before the scope, sling and recoil pad. The reason for its construction? - I couldn't find a bolt action .358 Winchester.

The second rifle is one that I ended up making myself. I spoke to seven rifle-smiths about the project and none of them wanted to take it on. I am not going to go into great detail here but I will say that with a lot of work and PLANNING you can convert an SKS to a "straight pull" bolt action .357 Maximum that shoots as well as any factory firearm available.

PaulS

TopGun · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2003, 01:44:50 PM »

I guess my 35 Whelen would qualify then? 1903 springfield action, Brownells bolt, Kreiger barrel, Fajen walnut, Redfield Jr mount holding a B/L Elite 3x9. It hold MOA at 300yds with my 225 Noslers and Spitzers. I letting a friend carry it for Elk this year. I hope he gets one.

Paul H · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2003, 02:33:32 PM »

Let's see if'n I can make the picture show up

The rifle on the bags is a work in progress, P-14 enfield with a 25" doublas 50 cal tube chambered in 500 Jeffrey. The stock is temporary, and I still need to make the bottom metal and work over the action to make the beast feed. I plan on making a stock out of a Turkish walnut blank. I had the smith contour, thread and chamber the barrel. He also opened up the barrel band swivel and front sight from a Ruger #1 barrel. I'll be doing all the other work.

The gun in the back is a VZ-24 that I sporterized. I had a smith chamber the midway tube in a 350 Rigby, and he opened up the bolt. The stock was a semi-inletted and semi-finished, that required alot of inletting, and alot of finishing to make it look like a stock.

I guess they both qualify as customs. They are my only hunting rifles. All the future rifles I plan will be assembled on either Montanna Rifle Co. M1999 actions, or milsurp mausers.

To me, custom guns are built specifically to your specifications. A true custom to my mind is a gun that is built to fit you, and is tuned to not only provide precision accuracy, but also perfection in feeding and extracting.

I just have tastes that aren't satisfied by factory rifles, and I thoroughly enjoy assembling guns that satisfy me.

PaulS · « **Reply #15 on:** March 26, 2003, 05:13:49 PM »

Nice shot PaulH. (the picture you guys, Paul didn't show us the targets yet).
Your VZ-24 looks a lot like my old 03A3. My dad did the stock work from an unfinished blank and oil finished it with tougue and linseed oil. I had the bolt turned and a scope mounted. Bought a Timney trigger and replaced the safety. Looks good!

PaulS

Paul H · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2003, 12:51:01 PM »

Quote from: PaulS

Nice shot PaulH. (the picture you guys, Paul didn't show us the targets yet).
Your VZ-24 looks a lot like my old 03A3. My dad did the stock work from an unfinished blank and oil finished it with tougue and linseed oil. I had the bolt turned and a scope mounted. Bought a Timney trigger and replaced the safety. Looks good!

PaulS

You asked for it

The only photo I have is the 500 Jeffrey shooting 470 gr cast @ 950-1150 fps at 25 yds.

The 3 shot clusters or large holes are the groups.

The 350 Rigby will print 5/8-3/4" at 100 yds with 250 gr hornady rn over 66 gr Varget Fed 210 for 2700 fps, but I don't have any pictures of those targets. Not bad for an old war rifle, 2 stage military trigger, $80 midway barrel and a 2.5X scope. So far I haven't been able to break 1" with spitzer bullets, but I'm working on it. It'll also put 5 cast bullets into 1" or better at 50 yds.

DB Bill · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2003, 08:53:51 AM »

Used factory rifles for years and the only things I did were rebed them and have a trigger-job done ... I was also a sucker for a good deal and eventually wound up with a lot of nice rifles that I didn't use so I decided to sell all but a few favorites and have a custom rifle built....the 1st was built by Lazzeroni...a 9.53 Hellcat that I took to Africa. The 2nd was a Lazzeroni Patriot built using the same components that Lazzeroni uses but I wanted it light. The 3rd was a 22BR built on a Rem 700....the 4th is a 450 Marlin built on a Rem 700. These rifles now do it all for me.

jeff · « **Reply #18 on:** April 08, 2003, 04:18:32 PM »

This is my custom single shot rifle. Always wanted a switch barrel and have liked the classic lines of old single shots and target scopes. A little custom engraving on receiver too. Stock is extra fancy fiddleback maple and no checkering.

30" Badger 38-55
28" Douglas 30-40 Krag
26" Badger 218 Mashburn Bee (mounted)

just learning · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2003, 09:17:26 AM »

Well i do own a customized gun its in 223, never thought of the difference, so i recan iam looking for a customized 308,??savage or remington?? something with a 26 inch barrel,?? :-)

PaulS · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2003, 08:24:43 PM »

Just learning,
If you are looking for a custom made gun you might direct a question to Sisk Rifles with desired specs to see what a custom made gun might cost.
You should select your caliber, barrel length, action preferences and stock type and wood. Also if you want any engraving or checkering that will raise the price. I am sure there are other custom rifle smiths but this is graybeard's and they (Sisk) are an advertiser here.

PaulS

carpediem · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2003, 08:17:54 PM »

:-D Greetings from the Great White North:

I don't know if this qualifies as a custom rifle so, I'll let you guys decide.

I have always wanted a double rifle however, I have as of yet to make the coin to buy one. I also have a love affair with the 45-70 round. Talking with my local gun smith, I proposed a poor mans double in 45-70. Take a 12 guage shotgun, throw in a couple of custom barrel liners and do a little regulation with some concentric nouts at the muzzle, not the stock :wink: .

To make a long story short, the gun would not have zeroed to my satisfaction so we scraped that idea.

My gun smith then suggested he would be amenable to the idea of starting with an action and working on from there, for a VERY reasonable fee.

Two years later, I finally got my hands on a Twenty Guage Baikal side by side shotgun. I ordered two barrels reamed to 45-70 and, handed the works over to my gun smith.

He has promised that I will be able to use for the 2003 hunting season.

The gun smithing part is well looked after but I need to find someone who can carve me a stock. Any ideas where I can fined a REALLLLLLLy nice piece of walnut and someone with the experience to carve it into a stock?

Does this qualify as a custom rifle?

Zachary · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2003, 10:39:36 AM »

Yes, I would say that it's a custom rifle. It may be somewhat unorthodox in practice, but it's definately custom. :grin:

Zachary

sebastian · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2003, 01:27:16 AM »

Quote from: Zachary

To me, there is a difference between a custom gun, and having a gun customized.

Good one Zach!.

Leanwolf · « **Reply #24 on:** May 13, 2003, 08:47:06 AM »

While living in Los Angeles, in 1976, I talked with Frank Pachmayr, at Pachmayr Gun Works, downtown Los Angeles, about building me a custom rifle. He walked me through his stock-blank warehouse, and helped me finally select a stock blank of beautiful fiddleback English Walnut. I don't remember just how many stock blanks he showed me, but a BUNCH!

I hung on to the blank for over a year, until I found a near mint 1909 Orberndorf DWM Argentine Mauser rifle. So, took it and the blank to Pachmayr. Two years later, the result was a... Pachmayr Custom .280 Remington. As I have long arms, the stock, classic style, was cut to a 15" L.O.P., with Pachmayr English Recoil Pad. Checkering was 28 LPI, both pistol grip and forend. Pachmayr recessed swivels.

The action was "lightened up," polished; jewelled bolt; Win. 70 safety, checkered; Canjar trigger; with an Apex 22" barrel. Remington Express Adjustable sights were installed on the barrel. Scope mount was a one piece Redfield, with 4x Leupold scope. My initials in gold, old English scroll, on the pistol grip.

This rifle shoots consistently, 3/4" groups, with various 7MM bullets, and my handloads. I've killed several Mule deer, antelope, and one 250 pound Black bear with it.

I think this would classify as a real "custom" rifle.

FWIW. L.W.

PaulS · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2003, 04:29:12 PM »

Gary,
It sounds like it would make a great large game rifle too!
Hogs should be a breeze.

PaulS

Dogshooter · « **Reply #26 on:** May 31, 2003, 02:44:26 AM »

I have Remington Model 725 that was customized by their custom shop. It has the premier grade (grade F) engraving and the custom shop added a Mannlicher stock. Very nice looking rifle. I use it for antelope every year.

Hud · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2003, 06:20:57 PM »

I'm not sure if this actually qualifies as custom, but I did cover my Mod 700, 30-06 in camo duct tape. Doesn't look bad and it does quiet down that synthetic stock.

Also I've just started on my second attempt at a custom rifle. It is a Brno modle 98 mauser action. I already had the action drilled and tapped for a scope and I've finnished the stock. I be putting on a adjustable trigger, opening up the rails and boltface and rebarreling. Or rather the gunsmith will.

I have done a fair amount of research into my cartridge and I can't fine anyone else that has tried it. It is a .475"x2.5" belted magnum soon to be known as the "475 Hud" (or 475 Dud). The only cartridge of that caliber that is close is the 470 Capstick, which is the full length belted mag case. Mine, being shorter, will work through a Mod 98 action.

I picked up a empty 458 case today at a gunshow and then ran it up in my 480 ruger die, belled the case mouth, then seated and crimped in a 385gr cast bullet. Ended up with a nice looking cartridge.

The ballistics should be almost identical to the 458 Win Mag. I should get a little more zip out of it at the muzzle, as it is using a bigger diameter bullet.

Been contimplating this for a while and finally going to get the ball rolling.

Hud

rb in ar · « **Reply #28 on:** June 02, 2003, 12:08:43 PM »

I do think that there is certainly a difference between customising and a complete custom. My friends at HCR customised an action for me just recently. For less than $2000 almost every part is exchanged modified or new. But still this is customising not custom built. The action chosen was a pre 64 model 70. It was is and always will be a model 70. It can be customised till it cost more than I could pay but its' heart is pure Winchester.

I have another rifle it is a custom. Its' reciever, entire lock, stock, and barrel (so to speak) were designed just for this rifle. It was not is not and will never be a Winchester, Remington, or any other brand. All the parts were made just for itself none were modified from another purpose. That's the difference. Another difference is it's not less than $2000

Dr. Michael · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2003, 01:48:57 AM »

I have a friend at the BATF here in Atlanta, where they do all the investigations. For starters, he is a real nice guy, and will answer any questions you have with a reference to the statute. According to the law, when applying for an FFL, these primarily being the dealer -01, gunsmith -02, or the manufacturer -03, it is as follows. Any gunsmithing work done to return a firearm to it original factory configuration is considered an -02 gunsmithing license. Any gunsmith work done to a firearm, that alters the gun from the original factory specification is deemed a manufacturer and requires an -03 license." I have a custom shop shop and I asked him to tear the jargon apart when I applied. Essentially it all boils down to rebarreling, based on legislation. A new stock would be considered an -02 type of license. It can include rebarreling, new triggers, etc. But the goal is to return the firearm to 'a degree consistent with factory specifications.' However, a new shilen barrel in the SAME caliber or a factory take-off barrel of a DIFFERENT caliber, requires an -03 license. Therefore, customization would have different levels. I would deem a semi-custom rifle to be one where a rifle can be done by an -02 license holder. Then the idea of the full custom rifle can only be 'manufactuured,' meaning an -03 license, from assembling a variety of aftermarket parts.

c'ya
Doc

PS-if any gunsmith's stress out over this delineation, don't. Bob said they run into it all the time, it is a error in processing that they are aware of. If they find you at fault, the usual penalty is you just have to get the other license, which is only $150.

Poll

Do you own a custom rifle?

Author Topic: What classifies as a "Custom Gun?" Do you own one? (Read 9461 times)