Practical off hand shooting

[gcf]

Been loading & shooting 1911's for a number of years now. I'm not any kind of a recoil junkie, but my pistols seem to shoot best w/ full house 230JHP loads, & that suits me to a "T".

With the purchase of a precision Remington .308 (700 5-R) About a year & a half ago, & more recently a Ruger #1S in 45-70, I have become some what obsessed w/ high power load development & shooting.

Both of these rifles will easily shoot sub-MOA off bags w/ the right loads. The 5-R is obviously well suited to shooting from a supported position, but the #1 (at least in MY mind's eye), should be a good choice for making real world, un-supported, off hand shots in heavy cover. I bought it to hunt our local brush country.

With accurate, pussy cat velocity loads (Hrndy 300JHP / IMR 4198 36.5) in the #1, I recently started working on my practical off hand technique at 50 yards. I didn't expect miracles right off the bat, but I can tell you, it's gonna take some work...

At any rate, last weekend down at the pistol berm, I noticed a young gent shooting a rifle off hand, & bouncing small cartridge boxes around (w/ regularity) at about 75 yards. Yeah, I'm nosey, & had to find out.

The guy was shooting a heavy barrel Briley custom Ruger 10/22, & a factory Ruger 77/22 Target model. After my congratulations on has expertise, he INSISTED that I try 'em both out. Although I detest embarrassing myself in front of witnesses, I reluctently agreed. Well,imagine my surprise when those small ammo boxes started bouncing around for me, as well. Offhand.

I don't think that either .22 was much (if any) more accurate, then what I've been shooting. Weight & balance seemed comparable. Not really sure what to think, but the results were un-deniable.

My new friend (pointing at his 77/22) was adamant: "Just buy one! You can get 500 rounds for $8.00. Best way to improve your off hand technique!" Hard to argue with success.

One thing seems clear - practical off hand proficiency is going to take some practise.

I'm a practical guy. I believe in quality, accuracy, & versatility. Cost is also a factor. It occurs to me, that although a quality bolt action .22LR rifle would be somewhat less expensive to purchase initially, a quality .223 bolt action might not cost a whole lot more - & might be a better investment in the long run. A Remington 700 LTR in .223, comes immediately to mind. Ammo would cost more, but could be custom loaded (cheaper then either 45-70 or .308) semi-cost effectivly, for a wider variety of purposes then .22LR.

Any way, I'm still in the "thinkin' about it" stage. I'm hoping though, that I can get a bit of constructive input from the membership here. So how about it guys - what do ya say?  ;=]

Thanks in advance!

[Nobade]

My recommendation to anyone who wishes to become a proficient offhand shooter is to take up rifle silhouette shooting. Either .22 or high power (though .22 is way cheaper and easier to get into) will not only show you what is possible, but if you keep at it will show you how it's done.

[High Brass]

I would personally consider the 22LR if you don't have one.  They're cheap as all get out to shoot and you'll have to work at it to wear one out(yes it can be done but it'll take a while).  I have my Dad's M572 Remington which is a pump, just like my 870 shotgun and 760 centerfire rifle.  So now I have a shotgun, centerfire, and rimfire rifle that all have identical safeties and slide releases.  The 22 gets shot quite a bit, especially offhand.  There is a plinker range where I shoot and they have different sized steel targets that you knock down from 25-100 yards.  It's a lot of fun and essentially lets you know immediately if you have a hit or miss.  I do shoot my centerfire rifles offhand as well.  One thing that I like is using the "shoot-nc" round bullseye type targets(I think they're 8").  In any event, you can tell easily if/where you hit the target and I shoot 'em at 50 and 100 yards.  Essentially, my practice for deer hunting is an excercise in getting the gun on target, acquiring a sight picture quickly, and shooting/following through.  Most times if you're taking an off hand shot at game it's a rather quick affair.  Good luck to you.

[GTKF]

My recommendation to anyone who wishes to become a proficient offhand shooter is to take up rifle silhouette shooting. Either .22 or high power (though .22 is way cheaper and easier to get into) will not only show you what is possible, but if you keep at it will show you how it's done.

I second Nobade on silhouette shooting. It will certainly sharpen your offhand skills and you'll have a lot a fun

[Steelbanger]

I'll third the silhouette recommendation, only suggesting Lever Action Silh. as the ranges are a practical 50-100-150-200 meters, open sights only. That's the most fun I've ever had with rifles.

[Bart Solo]

In the hunting world it is a rare day indeed when you have a chance to set up sand bags and wait for game to wander into your line of sight (I guess it happens but I don't consider that kind of thing hunting.)  
 
Practice is required to gain any skill.  
 
I have a Remington 22  automatic with open sights and use it often, but I think that if I want to be able to fire my hunting rifle with greater proficiency I need a lower caliber rifle (maybe a 22) in bolt action with a similar scope to that on my hunting rifle. The practice rifle should have about the same weight and should be balanced the same.  
 
I don't think shooting the open sight 22 hurts, nor do I oppose practice with a cowboy action rifle, but if you want to practice shooting your 700  buy a bolt action 22 that is of similar shape, size and weight, equip it with a similar scope and practice, practice, practice.
 
The alternative is to shoot your hunting rifle a lot. Of course that will wear out the barrel over time, and is expensive. If you don't use light loads using your hunting rifle might contribute to flinching and poor technique.  Maybe a combination of 22 and high power rifle practice is best. Nothing beats practice.

[lilabner]

Practice makes perfect in offhand shooting. Breath control and trigger control are essential, along with arranging the body so the rifle is supported by bones rather than soft tissue. I was intimidated by offhand shooting until I got a single pump pneumatic air rifle (Daisy 853) and shot only offhand with it. After 10,000 shots, I got pretty good. Cheaper than a .22, can be shot indoors or out (I practice at home) and at 10M, very accurate. Different things work for different people. For me, starting the trigger squeeze and continuing to tighten until the shot is made works best. If I don't make the shot in 5 seconds, I do some breathing and restart the cycle.  It makes sense to practice your hold without shooting to reduce the size of your wobble as much as possible. The wobble will always be there. Starting and stopping the squeeze, taking a quick breath  and trying to "grab" a bullseye by quickly pulling the trigger when the sights are aligned just right are death to accurate shooting for me.

[jvs]

If you really want to shoot off-hand properly, learn to do it the old way- with a long barreled flintlock.   I watch black-powder competitions of shooting flintlocks off-hand and some of those guys can shoot squirrel silhouettes at 50 yds.  Shooting off-hand originated with the primitive rifles, where being accurate is much more of a challenge.

[Slamfire]

The only practical way to shoot off your hind legs is with a rest in wooded country or a tight sling where the brush is tall. For open grass lands learn the sitting and kneeling positions with a tight sling. You can get into a sling a lot faster than you think, and with the right one, and the proper carry position it is even faster.  :grin:

[Idaho_Hick]

I'm sure the silhouette shooters are right, but around here they are hard to find.  A fun competition I have been involved with is the John C. Garand matches which are found even here.  They force you to shoot from prone, sitting and offhand with a highpower rifle and if you don't own an old U.S. service rifle, they usually have a couple of spare rifles.  I entered the two I was involved in for 20 and 15 dollars each and learned much.  They were both very fun and informal events and everyone took very good care of this newbie to highpower.  Just a thought.

[ScoutMan]

BCF,

Do the following:

1-Get a copy of Jeff Cooper's book " ART of the Rifle"
2-Get about 4 snap caps for the major caliber you will be using.
3-Learn to use the "open suprise break"
4-Learn about the "ching" or the "CW" sling.
5-Learn how to "call your shots" in dry fire practice.
6-Learn about the "Hawkins Fist"position".
7-Look into the "Squat" postion, which is just as fast to assume and gives you a 30% greater hit probability, especially if used with the "ching" sling"
8-Get a 22 rimfire in the same configuration as your major caliber rifle and practice. eps the quick acquisition of position.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I don't know.  It sounds like it's the gun to me.  You said you did miserably with your high-powerd guns, then had an immediate improvement with the .22.

If it's the gun, not the shooter, why would you expect an improvement by switching back to your high-powered rifles after shooting a .22?

Most high powered sporting guns are being designed to be carried, not shot.  That's why they're making 'em so light.  And of course the thin bbls can't take the heat of repeated shooting.  

It seems that with cast bullets you should be able to shoot your .308 and .45-70 with some frequency.  Remember though, lightweight guns are the trend, because they're easy to carry all day, not because they're easy to shoot.

[gcf]

Gents -
Wanted to say thanks for the all the positive input to date.  Also thought I'd post a couple of pics, so everyone is on the same page.

For the record, both groups shown were fired from bags at 100.

Only the Ruger #1 is included in the off hand project.

The 5R..., well, it's a blast to shoot off the bench, but probably won't be out in the brush anytime soon. Don't think it to be set up for snap shots, but then again...

A .22 (for technique development) is in the works, but not for a while.

[gcf]

BCF,

Do the following:

1-Get a copy of Jeff Cooper's book " ART of the Rifle"
2-Get about 4 snap caps for the major caliber you will be using.
3-Learn to use the "open suprise break"
4-Learn about the "ching" or the "CW" sling.
5-Learn how to "call your shots" in dry fire practice.
6-Learn about the "Hawkins Fist"position".
7-Look into the "Squat" postion, which is just as fast to assume and gives you a 30% greater hit probability, especially if used with the "ching" sling"
8-Get a 22 rimfire in the same configuration as your major caliber rifle and practice. eps the quick acquisition of position.

Many of Cooper's writings are available for viewing on line. Don't supose "Art of the Rifle" is. Need to get a copy...

Can I assume that your recommendations #3 through #7 are covered by Cooper in this book?

[gcf]

I don't know.  It sounds like it's the gun to me.  You said you did miserably with your high-powerd guns, then had an immediate improvement with the .22.

Kept 'em (45-70) on a paper plate at 50, from a standing position. No noticable difference taking a knee. Did better sitting. Not exactly "miserable" for the first time off hand w/ this rifle, but a LONG way from "good enough".

I've considered the "flinch factor", & while not ruling it out as a problem, I think that wobbling cross hairs & poor trigger control, is a bit more of the likely culprit.

Can't really explain the difference between my results with the two rifles (the loaner .22, & my 45-70) w/ any certainty. I do need to get a set of higher rings on the #1, & set the scope back a bit - but even still, I get a better sight picture & cheek weld w/ my rifle then I did w/ either .22..

If it's the gun, not the shooter, why would you expect an improvement by switching back to your high-powered rifles after shooting a .22?

Although it does not really address your point, my thought is that technique improvement would come w/ extended practice.

Most high powered sporting guns are being designed to be carried, not shot.  That's why they're making 'em so light.  And of course the thin bbls can't take the heat of repeated shooting.  

It seems that with cast bullets you should be able to shoot your .308 and .45-70 with some frequency.  Remember though, lightweight guns are the trend, because they're easy to carry all day, not because they're easy to shoot.

Knowing that I would have to deal w/ this dragon, if I am to hunt, I have been working on both plinking AND hunting load development for the 45-70. I've been using IMR 3031 for the full house loads. It works well w/ both Hornady 300s & Cast Performance 405s. Not so great at lower velocity, though.

Recently found that lower case volumes of IMR 4198 are quite accurate & easy shooting w/ the Hornady 300s. Thought I'd try it w/ some Remington 300JHPs. They seem to be an accurate bullet, & would reduce the cost of practice ammo by half - compared to the Hornady's or CP bullets. Guess it couldn't hurt to check out the Oregon Trail "silver bullet" pricing from Midway either...

[Savage .250]

Practice..... practice.....Practice : To train  or drill a person in something in
   order to give proficiency.  
   Do the same thing over and over and you should get as good as your going to get.  
    Shooting at the range (off hand) is one thing it`s another to top a hill out of breath, spot a deer at 80 yds, put the gun up to your shoulder and
  look in your scope/peep/iron sigh and think, all that practice it`s going to help me till my breath calms down.  The unknown factor.
  " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[ScoutMan]

BCF,

Do the following:

1-Get a copy of Jeff Cooper's book " ART of the Rifle"
2-Get about 4 snap caps for the major caliber you will be using.
3-Learn to use the "open suprise break"
4-Learn about the "ching" or the "CW" sling.
5-Learn how to "call your shots" in dry fire practice.
6-Learn about the "Hawkins Fist"position".
7-Look into the "Squat" postion, which is just as fast to assume and gives you a 30% greater hit probability, especially if used with the "ching" sling"
8-Get a 22 rimfire in the same configuration as your major caliber rifle and practice. eps the quick acquisition of position.

3-Open suprise break-Apply finger pressure to your trigger until some point in time, the trigger releases the striker and the gun fires. This should be a "suprise" to you. It is the heart of marksmanship. Observe, that in the field, this time interval can be very short, often instantaneous in the case of the snap shot. That is why the first money spent on a rifle after original purchase is to get a good trigger. A big game rifle trigger should "break" at 3 lbs or a little less and have no creep or backlash.

5-Calling your shots-Using a clock face as a measure of direction, you should be able to (as soon as the striker falls)to be able to tell or call your point of impact before looking at the target. For example: "out 4 inches at 2 o'clock, out 5 inches at 7 o'clock, etc..

You should find all the other points in Cooper's book.


HTH


SM

Many of Cooper's writings are available for viewing on line. Don't supose "Art of the Rifle" is. Need to get a copy...

Can I assume that your recommendations #3 through #7 are covered by Cooper in this book?

[Slamfire]

"Art of the Rifle" is essentially a compilation of Jeff's articles for the gun rags. It puts everything into a simple to obtain, easy to locate form. He may have a chapeter or two that isn't available anywhere else, but not many. As for suprise break, after some practice, any reasonably dexterous human develops a pretty good idea of when the trigger will break.

[gcf]

BCF,

7-Look into the "Squat" postion, which is just as fast to assume and gives you a 30% greater hit probability, especially if used with the "ching" sling"

Got a chance to try this one out yesterday.  Faster sight aquisition, better hit ratio. Thanks for the tip!