Author Topic: New to front stuffing, with a question  (Read 1645 times)

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Offline handirifle

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New to front stuffing, with a question
« on: March 01, 2005, 06:12:56 PM »
Hi all, been lurking in the centerfire world for many years and just pre-inherited a 50 cal percussion.  

Question,
In the BPCR world I know you slug the barrel to see where to start on bullet size.  Is there a method for the front stuffers?

I'd like to get into casting my own but need to figure out how to pick a mold an all.
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Offline Ramrod

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2005, 06:35:39 PM »
Heh, heh, here is where the size of your balls is most important. But the bore size really doesn't matter, you will have to try different thickness patches, and in your case .490 and maybe .495 balls, to find what works best. And then you have to find a powder charge that your gun likes. And then there is lube. Did I mention lube? Welcome to the wild world of muzzleloading. Stick around, ask lots of questions, there are guys here who really know their stuff. I'm sure you will get lots of help.
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2005, 06:38:42 PM »
Been reading some.  My head is already spinning :roll: .  Been reloading centerfire for over 30 years and this stuff makes it seem easy.
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Offline crow_feather

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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2005, 08:41:21 PM »
Actually, black powder shooting is easy.  Pour in powder, put in a lubed patched round ball, put cap on nipple and pull trigger.  

The harder part of black powder shooting is like reloading; to get the optimum load, you have to experiment with bullet and powder charge.  That is the fun of reloading and also part of the fun in black powder shooting.

Best of luck in your endeavor, and please remember to never load powder from the horn, or check to see if you are loaded with a match.

C F
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Offline jgalar

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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 01:17:31 AM »
I wouldn't worry to much about it. Just buy some store bought .490 balls and some lubed patches. Get some black powder or substitute and some caps and go shooting. The lowest powder charge I have been able to get acceptable shooting with is 35 grains. 75-90 would make a good hunting load.

If you are thinking about casting consider the Lee REAL bullet - they work well in my guns

Offline simonkenton

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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 02:43:09 AM »
jgalar is right.  It is not too complicated to shoot 'em,  the biggest difference from centerfire is these guns are a mess to clean. Get some .490 balls, some lubed patches.  Put 80 grains of powder in and start shooting.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2005, 04:50:26 AM »
Hiya Handi, what make and model is that rifle?  Might be able to give ya more specific info on shooting with it if we know that.

If you do want to slug the bore, you can do it by dropping a piece of brass rod that's just under bore size into the bore and then poound an oiled oversize ball (liek a .530 ball in your .50) down the bore a ways and then shake up and down to push the slug out.

Like said above, it's not really critical to getting good performance out of it.  OTOH, if it's a fast twist barrel suited for slugs, you might want to measure it to see what conical would give a good fit.  Plan to cast your own balls and or conicals.  it's way cheaper and you will find yourself shooting more that way.

Go to the fabric store and get some pieces of various thicknesses of 100% cotton tight weave material.  Don't bother measuring it, but remember it's stock number.  Get some lube, Wonder Lube or TC 1000+ is good, and go shoot with each type of patching.  Shoot with each one at about 75 grains of powder and see which shoots best.  Look at your fired patches and find out wihich ones survive without burning out, slicing up or blowing to pieces :) .  The patch material the survives the best is the winner!  Start with the thinnest first and work up to the thickest.  If you get to where it's really hard to load (you areof course wiping the bore after each shot) then don't go up to the next thickness.

Not everybody agrees with me but IMO the thickness and the toughness of the patch is the most important factor in shooting round ball.

I have six (at last count anyway :) ) round ball guns on my rack and every one of them would outshoot my NEF .223 :eek:

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2005, 06:03:39 AM »
Quote from: Longcruise
I have six (at last count anyway :) ) round ball guns on my rack and every one of them would outshoot my NEF .223 :eek:


You still own that thing!! Heh heh, I think most any rifle will out shoot your NEF .223!! :-D  :-D  :-D
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2005, 07:16:19 AM »
Longcruise
Thanks, lots of good info to start off with.  Will have to locate some of that stuff.  I'll have to look in the safe and get the brand off the gun.  memory seems to tell me it is an old dept store model.

Boy the 223 must be a loser :shock:   mine puts 3 shots nearly touching, can easily cover with a dime.

I assume that because the patch survives that means it lets less or no gas past it to ruin the ball?

It seems my brother and dad said the gun shot saboted loads very well, so it might be a fast twist barrel.  Probably somthing zippy like 1 in 48, ha ha.

I'd like to see if I can get conicals to shoot out of it cause I kinda like the big heavy bullet idea.

I'll look at the gun this afternoon and post its particulars.
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Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2005, 08:57:35 AM »
Quote
You still own that thing!! Heh heh, I think most any rifle will out shoot your NEF .223!


I had an m44 with a shot out barrel that the nef could beat.  But, my enfields, mosin 91/30 and especially my swiss k31's will all outshoot it.  Now, I spoke of it in the present tense cause I think it still exists :)   I no longer own it.  I put it on auction arms as a basic auction starting at $175 and got no bids.  went to a local gunshow and threw it over my shoulder along with a mosin m38 that shot like crap and sold the nef for $165 (no scope) and the M38 for $65.  That was a gain on the M38 and a bit of a loss on the nef.  I don't miss either of them!! :-D

Quote
Boy the 223 must be a loser  mine puts 3 shots nearly touching, can easily cover with a dime.


Best mine ever did was about two inches but an average of it's very best would be about 2.5.  Not good enough for the application of that cartridge!

Quote
I assume that because the patch survives that means it lets less or no gas past it to ruin the ball?


That's pretty much it.  Also means the rifleing is not slicing it which can happen in new guns or those that have not been shot much.

Quote
It seems my brother and dad said the gun shot saboted loads very well, so it might be a fast twist barrel. Probably somthing zippy like 1 in 48, ha ha


Nothing wrong with a 1/48.  You will hear lots about how they are a "compromise" twist and neither fish nor fowl, bu the fact is that the old guns in the .50 and .54 range were mostly 1/.48 and 1/56.  The Harpers Ferry 1803 .54 was a 1/56.  These twists shoot round balls just fine.  They don't like magnum charges, but believe me (and others will agree) that in a .50 the 50 to 80 grain charges are more than enough and good accuracy can be attained at those charges.

This year in our big game camp three hunters killed three big mulie does (180 to 200 lbsd) and one 5X6 elk.  All with round balls in .54 cal.  The elk went down to a single shot from a TC (1/48) and 80 grains of goex ff.  That same rifle killed a deer with the same load.  The other two deer went down to 80 grain and 100 grain (mine, wanted to load 80 but filed the front sight too low and went to 100 for a 100 yard zero :oops: )

Quote
I'd like to see if I can get conicals to shoot out of it cause I kinda like the big heavy bullet idea.


Nothing wrong with them except they aren't much fun to shoot all afternoon :eek:   I've killed deer and elk with conicals and round balls and believe me the round ball is a deadly killer within reasonable ranges (100 or so).  The conical will carry the energy well beyond 100 but range estimation gets so critical that shooting beyond that gets a little tricky.

Watch out though, these charcoal burners are a more slippery slope than nef's :)

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2005, 01:25:58 PM »
Well here are the details of my front stuffer.  Memory was correct, it was (at least sold by) Montgomery Ward with some gold inlay in the receiver.  It has some engraving on it too.  On the barrel it says "621 of 2500" and "Tribute to the American Pioneer".  Double set triggers.

Here are some pictures but they are too large to post here.    If I make them smaller you cannot read them.

It also says "Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield NJ USA on the barrel.  I assume they are the maker.
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Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2005, 04:14:11 PM »
That's a pretty nice looking rifle.  Probably pretty old (by modern standards).  I'm guessing mid '70's vintage.

It's probably a 1/48 or 1/66 twist.

Navy arms was, and still is, an importer of replica arms.  My '85 winchester hi wall is a Navy Arms import and I believe it to be made by Uberti.

Your gun could have been made by any of the Italian or Spanish replica builders.

It's my guess that it's probably a pretty good gun and probably not even broken in yet.  Should give you many years of fine service!

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2005, 05:21:19 PM »
Tht's kinda what I was hoping to hear.  Our local range has a BP shoot every month and once I went to one of their rendevous' I had to have one, soooo when my dad decided to start dishin' out his guns i put dibs on this one, and of course the 375 BB :grin: .

even though i shoot left handed and this has a check piece on the right side of the stock, I'll make it work.  Might just have to shoot RH.  I can do that anyway, just feels a bit odd, is all.

I might try to get out with it this Fri.
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2005, 06:47:34 PM »
Couple more questions.

Number 11 caps fit this rifle but seem to split and stick in the hammer.  Is this normal?  Are there others to try?  With rifles there are small rifle, large rifle and magnum, anything similar here?

On the bullet end.

Will wheel weights work for round balls and conicals or should I look for something else?

Thanks for the help so far.
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Offline dispatch 510

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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2005, 01:22:48 AM »
:-D My first suggestion would be to get a book by Sam Fadala, The Complete Blackpowder Handbook. It has a wealth of information in it. I just got into frontstuffers a couple of years ago. Bought this book,IT is great. take the rifle out and play with it. Find the right load. But most of all just have fun with it. I to am gouing to start casting my own roundballs.

Offline jgalar

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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2005, 02:19:13 AM »
I tried wheel weight ball, but they were to hard to load. Pure lead is the way to go.

Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2005, 05:01:30 AM »
Quote
Number 11 caps fit this rifle but seem to split and stick in the hammer. Is this normal? Are there others to try?


Thast's not unusual.  When the gun is loaded, the blowback through the nipple usually breaks the cap up a bit more.  There is a nipple that I use and I can't remember who makes it, but it has a small hole in the side of the nipple that allows the blow back to break up the nipple even more.  It also improves the ignition.  You can get #10 caps but they are smaller.  The cap should fit down all the way on the nipple when pressed on and not fall off if turned upside down.  The key here is pressed all the way down  If it's not, the hammer blow will push it down and that cussions the hammer blow and it can take a second hammer blow to make it go off.  In other words, a mis-fire!! :(   Seems like the #11 caps are going to work for you.  If you have iginition problems when the cap goes off, look first to the chamver for oil or moisture from wiping.  next look to the flash hole in the nipple.  If you get a nipple like I described above it will be ok.

Quote
Will wheel weights work for round balls and conicals or should I look for something else?


NO!!!!   Pure lead!!  Starting out, buy a box of Speer or Hornady round balls.

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2005, 05:22:01 AM »
Thanks, that's why we ask these questions.  Pure lead it will be.  I hope I can find a local source.
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Offline D.E.C

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handirifle
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2005, 11:40:18 AM »
I have found that both #10 and # 11 caps work fine on my .50 kentucky. But I also find that #11 magnum CCI caps give about more  6" of elevation at 100yds. Midway usa has pure lead but theyre a lot closer to me than they are to you so shipping could be expensive.
                                             DEC

Offline lostid

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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2005, 03:47:26 PM »
[quote="handirifle"..Here are some pictures but they are too large to post here.[/quote]

 OK ,i don't care what the rest say. After looking at those photo's. Dont' expect much as far as shooting capability from that firearm. An don't push it to far. Yes, you have a limited edition rifle in your position.
 The obvious corrosion around the hammer and breech,, as well as the pitting of the  iron triggers and scale on the brass trigger guard, is an indication of the condition of the bore.
 If I were you, I would not ask how to shoot this firearm. I would ask how re-condition the "limited editon" collector item.
i'm a realist. i've not seen it all, but man ,,I've Been Around the block once or twice

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2005, 04:04:02 PM »
:roll:
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2005, 07:16:04 PM »
lostid
First off, I'm not new to firearms.  There isn't enough pitting or corrosion anywhere on this gun to be of concern to me or anyone else that shot it.  The top of the hammer looks like it does because my dad, with his poor eyesight had the hammer bent sideways and mounted a "scope" on it.

I heated the hammer with a torch to allow me to bend it without breaking it when I put it back in original position.  I have not refinished the hammer.  As far as collectibles, I'm not really concerned.  The bore is in great shape.

There is some surface rust on the outside of the barrel, but not a big concern to me.  It was kept well oiled inside but my dads poor health would not allow him to get into the basement to keep up on his rifles.

All that said, I do not expect a 150-200gr "magnum" from this rifle, nor from any other like it.  If it handles 60-100gr loads accurately, I'll be happy.  Time will tell, but thanks for your concern.
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2005, 07:21:25 PM »
DEC
Yea I checked Midway, they want about $10-12 per ingot for shipping.  A bit much.
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2005, 07:30:06 PM »
Another question
I was thinking of using some of my 45-70 brass as a powder/ball holder.  This is assuming I have previously determined just how much powder I need to use and that it will fit.

Seems like it would be easy to carry, pop out the ball, pour in the powder and place ball and patch and stuff it down?  Am I off base?

One more

Does his book cover needed cleaning materials?  I have nothing for that part yet.
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Offline Keith Lewis

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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2005, 07:50:24 PM »
45-70 brass is only going to hold about 65-70gr. of powder which would be OK for plinking but might be a little light for hunting. T/C makes a plastic carrier that works just great for me. Has a snap lid for the powder and carries a cap in the under side of the lid. Hole in the end is plugged with bullet. Snap off lid pour powder set bullet on barrel ram bullet using holder to align bullet then cap and shoot.

Offline sharps4590

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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2005, 12:51:50 AM »
You're going to get a lot of opinions on cleaning your rifle.  On all the muzzleloading sights that question always elicits many responses.

I always use boiling water, plenty of patches and a bore brush.  I have a funnel which I use in the muzzle and pour the boiling water down the bore.  Oh.....remove your nipple first.  Then patch and brush the bore until clean.  I often pour water downbore 2-3 times repeating the procedure.  I then lube up with Wonderlube inside and out.  All you need is a 50 cal. jag, a bore brush and plenty of patches.

Here in the Ozarks where I live it is humid most of the time and using this method I've never experienced any rust.  I also keep my rifles and handguns in a safe equipped with a Goldenrod.  Enjoy this sport.....it is a great one!!

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Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2005, 05:19:22 AM »
I buy all my lead from local scrap metal dealers.  It comes in the same form that they got it in :-)   Right now I have a bunch of xray room sheathing next to my casting bench.  The price is always right and the old rule "if you can scratch it with your thumb, use it" is a good one to follow.  If you can't buy lead cheap, you may as well go ahead and use the speer or hornady swaged balls.  I use my own cast and the swaged and get excellent results with both.

My 45-70 brass once fired will hold about 73 grains of goex ffg when poured in and scraped level across the top.  that's a pretty good working charge for a .50 and for lighter loads you can cut the case down till you get where you want to be.  Another option on the measure is to buy one of the Trso brass measures.  They come in a variety of sizes and can be cut or filed to change the charge.  They have a little ring at the closed end to hang them from a strap or cord.  I use a fixed measure like the Trso for messing around in the field and the adjustable with the swivel funnel for range work or doing pre-measured charges in speed loaders.

A lot of modern day BP shooters don't want to bother with such things as powder horns or patch knives, etc but the fact is that the items typically used by the old timers were and are very practical.  And then there are a few things that the old timers may or may not have used that are very practical too!  You already hit on the idea of using a cartridge case for a powder measure so you are obviously a BP recruit waiting to happen :)  You can make just about everything you need for cheap and for the most part it will work better than the stuff on the rack at wal mart.  Further, you will have that sense of self satisfaction that comes from doign it yourself.

Here's some examples:

1.  You can buy a rough or partly finished powder horn for a couple bucks.

2.  Hang your homemade powder measure on a strap around your neck.

3.  Make a bullet board out of 3/4" maple with 1/2" holes drilled in it that will hold four or five or 10 if you like round balls in their prelubed patches ready to be pushed down the bore with your short starter.  You can buy prelubed patches but cutting them at the muzzle or in your bullet board is way more efficient and more accurate because the patch is always centered.

4.  You can make a bunch of short starters by buying round hardwood balls at the craft store and use a caliber size ramrod tip that is epoxied into the ball on the side for the short start end and a piece of hardwood dowell about 6 or 7 inches long around the ball 90 degrees for the longer start end.  Dress it up with a ramrod tip too if you like but it's not really needed.  Drill a hole on another side of the ball that will fit over the ramrod and now you have a palm saver for seating the ball on top of the powder.

5   Make a patch knife from a Green River paring blade at about $6 or any other small bladed knife and put a deer horn or wood handle on it and carry it in a full length sheath that you can put together with scrap leather around your neck.

6.  Make a shoulder or belt bag from any soft leather you might have or from heavy canvas.  Easy to sew by hand.  You can put a small bottle of bore sovent in there along with a few extra balls and lubed patch material, maybe an extra jag and some extra caps, some patches to wipe the bore after the shot, a lost patch retriever is handy and whatever other minor accessories you might decide are needed for a day in the woods or desert.  Make it beg enough to hold your lunch too! :)

6.  For a capper, take a round or rectangular or for that matter any shape piece of leather that is thick enough to be equal to the depth of a cap.  Punch some cap size holes around the edge and then cut through the edge to the hole with a sharp knife or razor blade.  If you don't have a punch, use a regular drill.  Push the caps into the holes and when your ready to cap the nipple, push the nipple onto the cap while still in the leather and then pull the leather loose sideways with the cap passing throuh the cut edge.  You can hang it around your neck too or put it in your shirt pocket where it will be handy.  Costs about .05cents and works as good as any commercial capper and better than most of em!

Once you put this little kit together you will have everything you need to spend a day shooting rocks, pine cones or bunnies or a week chasing deer or elk.  This is not a PC (period correct) trekking outfit, but it is closer to ideal for a day of shooting than you realize until you give it a try.

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2005, 05:40:50 AM »
Handi, here's a cleaning tip for ya that worked well for me....take that old nipple that you're gonna replace and drill the little hole out to as big as ya can, install it when you clean, slip a piece of vinyl tubing over it with the other end of the tubing in a container of hot water. With a tight fitting patch on a jag at the end of your cleaning rod, you can pump water in and out of the bore, pour water down the bore to flush or what ever ya need to do and you don't need to remove the barrel to do it. I usually start by pouring real hot water down the bore with the tubing pinched, just fill the bore part way, brush the bore good, unpinch the tubing so it can drain, repeat once or twice, then do the pumping with clean water in the container or just pour more water thru it...

Hope this helps,

Tim
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2005, 06:40:58 AM »
Wow! :shock:

The more I ask, the more I have to ask.  I guess I REALLY need to get some books to let your fingers get some rest.  Of course, it doesn't seem like you guys hate to pass out advice either :grin:   That's a good thing.

Quick, even if I didn't do the "pump" thing, the tubing is still a good idea for mess prevention.  I found out when trying BP in the Buffalo Classic, that stuff can make a mess.

Well gotta head to some stores and see if I can gather up some needed materials.  Gotta hurry cause I'm having some steel delivered to try and finish up my off road trailer I'm building.  Yes I do like to do things myself even when you can buy them already done for ya.  Maybe that's why the front stuffing seems like so much fun! :grin:

See ya later :D
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Offline Longcruise

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New to front stuffing, with a question
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2005, 06:58:31 AM »
Looking at the pics, I can't tell if your gun has a hooked breech or not.  If it does, then cleaning is easy with the barrel removed.  If it's not a hooke d, then Quciks suggestion is the way to go on cleaning.

Before you mess around with new nipples, check the threads on the old one.  They could be american standard or metric.