Author Topic: State Police Shoot Man  (Read 2390 times)

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Offline JPSaxMan

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State Police Shoot Man
« on: February 22, 2005, 12:21:12 PM »
UPDATED: 5:50 p.m.

Police opened fire on a man in Luzerne County early Monday morning after they said he attacked them with a chain saw. That man was killed. One state trooper was hurt.

State police investigators wrapped up nearly 12 hours of work late Monday afternoon. They said it all started around 5:00 a.m. when 911 received a call saying someone was having a heart attack in a home along River Street.

When paramedics and an officer got there they found no heart attack victim but a lot of trouble. Police cruisers sat on River Street for hours Monday in the same spots police left them after responding to an officer's call for help. In a matter of minutes, officers said, all on scene were in danger. William Hinkle, 40, was using the chain saw as a weapon despite pleas for him to put it down.

"He refused and eventually charged at some of the officers with the chain saw, struck one trooper in the shoulder and rear part of the body," explained Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Tom Kelly.

Bullets began to fly. Investigators said the wounded trooper fired first. Then four state troopers and local officers began shooting, in all 40 rounds. More than a dozen of them hit Hinkle, eventually killing him. Even after the first few shots, investigators said, Hinkle wouldn't give up. "I want to stress, after being hit initially, it did not stop him. He did not stop," said Pennsylvania State Police Captain Kenneth Hill.

"He was given verbal warnings. Mace was utilized. One officer even brought out a baton but his actions left officers no other choice," said Luzerne County District Attorney David Lupas.

The D.A. and investigators displayed Trooper Michael Hartzell's torn uniform Monday afternoon, showing where the chain saw cut his shoulder, back and buttocks. "He's a very lucky individual that he escaped without sustaining serious injuries or even death to himself," added Lupas.

Police said Hinkle has a history of mental illness and they believe he was drinking overnight. Trooper Hartzell was treated at the hospital and released.

Some people living in the neighborhood were startled awake by the sounds of gunfire. "At about 4:00, I woke up to shots. I looked out and police were already here. I couldn't understand why I heard gunshots and police were already here," said Maria Delazzari.

"I thought maybe it was a snow plow coming through that dropped the blade down and then I got up at 7:00 and saw police here," said neighbor Jeff Finkel.

All the activity has neighbors shaken. "This is a great neighborhood," added Finkel.

"I'm absolutely shocked. It's a quiet street other then all the traffic. It's a very busy street. Neighbors are really nice. Nothing like this every happens here," said Delazzari.

"I want to commend officers for the professionalism and for their bravery. We're very fortunate that we have police willing to risk their life when they respond to a situation," said D.A. Lupas.

The state and local officers who fired shots will be on administrative leave and must talk with counselors before going back to the streets
_____________________________________________________________

The reason I posted this here was because tonite on "Talkback 16" (kind of like a feedback part of the newsshow), one woman wondered why they couldn't have mortally wounded him (like shooting out kneecaps or an arm or whatever) instead of blasting him with bullets. I think that those officers did what was only best in their power to protect themselves, even though the man was only armed with a chainsaw, and not a gun.
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline longwinters

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 12:54:46 PM »
From the info here I would commend the police for doing what they did.  But what I want to know is if the liberals will want all chain saws registered from now on.

Long
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Offline Shorty

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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 12:54:47 PM »
Armed "ONLY" with a chain saw?  Jeezum!  If somebody was coming at me with ONLY a chain saw, I'd be shooting until he stopped moving!

'Reminds me of the hullabloo about police using Tasers which can kill some one with a weak heart.  Well, the alternative of .40 cal. might kill them too! Get real!   :roll:

Offline NYH1

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Re: State Police Shoot Man
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 01:18:07 PM »
Quote from: Fishman029
UPDATED: 5:50 p.m.
The reason I posted this here was because tonite on "Talkback 16" (kind of like a feedback part of the newsshow), one woman wondered why they couldn't have mortally wounded him (like shooting out kneecaps or an arm or whatever) instead of blasting him with bullets. I think that those officers did what was only best in their power to protect themselves, even though the man was only armed with a chainsaw, and not a gun.

Aim for the "center mass", its the largest place on a person's body. :shock:  If the trooper would have aimed for a"knee cap" or "arm" he'd be dead right know! :evil:

It sounds to me like the officers did a fine job too! Some people just don't get it...............ya know Fish!
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Offline Old Syko

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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 01:27:09 PM »
I have only 1 problem with the whole thing and that is the fact that 40 rounds were fired with only 12 finding their target and this only after 1 man is cut across the back.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 01:33:10 PM »
I hear ya, and I too think what the officers did was the right thing. Some might argue it was a use of excessive force, but I think in that scenario, you're not thinking about keepin the crazy guy with a chain saw alive, just makin sure he don't cause no more harm. Especially on you :eek: . In a self-defense situation, I wouldn't think you'd be aiming to make sure when ya shot ya didn't kill, just immobilize. I don't think so.  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 01:46:20 PM »
Why were the cops messing with him in the first place?
It is the duty of the good citizen to love his country and hate his gubmint.

Offline Old Syko

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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2005, 01:52:11 PM »
No doubt the guy with the chainsaw needed to be put down but how in the world did anyone end up with their back turned to him to get cut?  Did he sneak up on them?  I doubt it.  I was taught when a defensive posture to stay alert and stay on target at all times.

We had a semi local incident a while back where 2 cops shot a handcuffed subject, indoors, at point blank range.  11 rounds were fired and only 6 found their mark.  The guy was a known doper with a history of unruly behavior and the cops on the scene knew it, yet were still caught off guard.

Offline dave375hh

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 02:39:49 AM »
Old Syko,
I doubt they turned their backs on him. Rather the cop that got cut probably tried to tackle him and was cut on the shoulder and lower back when the loony bent over his shoulder. I admit that's a guess on my part but I can't see them turning their back on him while he had the chainsaw.

Leftoverdj,
Did you read the story? The nutcase called in a bogus 911 call for a "man with a heart attack". The cops responded when the paramedics and one other officer called for help. It's common for police to show up at ambulance, and or fire calls that occur in the early morning hrs.
Dave375HH

Offline bullet maker

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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 03:53:20 AM »
forty rounds fired, and only 12 hit there target? Where did the other 28 rounds go to? :eek: I assumed it was a neighbor hood, so that was very risky. Better to have shot the guy with a shotgun 00 buck. he wouldn`t have got up from that. With all the officers shooting at one time, its a wonder they didnt shoot each other. :eek:
   Shotgun, only way to go for upclose encounters.

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Offline magooch

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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 04:35:21 AM »
You guys know that I'm sure as heck no liberal, but I have to wonder what the authorities woudl do to a private citizen who blew away some nut with a chainsaw.  Unless the guy was cutting through your door and threatening to turn you and your family into hamburger, I'm pretty sure the law would say you used undue force.

I don't really want to get into second guessing the cops, but one has to wonder if they couldn't have given the would be lumberjack some room and let the saw run out of gas.

I must be in a charitable mood today.
Swingem

Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 05:18:44 AM »
Quote from: dave375hh

Leftoverdj,
Did you read the story? The nutcase called in a bogus 911 call for a "man with a heart attack". The cops responded when the paramedics and one other officer called for help. It's common for police to show up at ambulance, and or fire calls that occur in the early morning hrs.


Sorry, the story does NOT say that. The story said that the police received a call, not where it came from. Crank calls by disgruntled neighbors are common enough so that they must be considered.

I dunno what happened. Seems to me that neither the reporter nor you guys care what happened.

It also seems to me that when you bother someone at his home at five o'clock in the morning on a false call, unless you have a real good reason otherwise, when he tells you to go away, you GO AWAY.

The police may have had a good reason, but it sure does not appear in the story. Being drunk and crazy ain't no crime in the privacy of your own home.
It is the duty of the good citizen to love his country and hate his gubmint.

Offline NYH1

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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 10:14:50 AM »
Quote from: Leftoverdj
Being drunk and crazy ain't no crime in the privacy of your own home.

I tell my wife that about 4 or 5 nights a week!  :-D  :toast:  :gulp:
"ROLL TIDE". . .Back To Back. . .Three In The Last Four Years "GO GIANTS"  "YANKEES"

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 10:19:32 AM »
LeftoverDJ, the story's main point, in the second paragraph, does state that 911 operators got a call for a heart attack victim. I know that's what happened because I heard the first news broadcast aside from the story. Then of course when they found the lunatic with the chainsaw was when things started to get nasty.  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 11:06:26 AM »
Would not want to register chain saws, just restrict the sale of chains.  Ah well tree huggers should be happy; there is one less wielder of a cellulose destroying implement.  12 out of 40, not bad with a nut coming at you with a chain saw who does not stop.  Just goes to show adrenalin, chain saws, guns, and probably PCP are difficult to combine.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 11:24:49 AM »
"The privacy of your own home" is a concept that should be on the endangered species list.  This story doesn't, however, give enough details to tell me whether the shooting was justified.  

One thing I do know is that the courts have given cops much more leeway for searches and entry into people's homes.  Some have no problem with that until it is their home the police barge into.

Offline NYH1

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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 11:52:07 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
12 out of 40, not bad with a nut coming at you with a chain saw who does not stop.

jon

I agree. I have never had to use a gun for self defense and hopefully I never have to. I don't think that we should judge the marksmanship of the officer's involved unless we actually walked in their shoe's. Its easy to sit in front of a computer a say "I can hit the ten ring at 50 yards all day long". there is a big difference between shooting at the range and shooting for self defense, just ask a "combat veteran" or a "police officer" that has fought for his life.

 My father was in Vietnam from 3/'67 to 3/'68 with the 554th engineer battalion, 25th Infantry Division (Tropic Lighting) in the Tay Ninh area. He told me that he's never been more afraid in his life then when somebody was shooting at him. Even his last few weeks in Vietnam he was just as afraid as the first time he was shot at. He said there in no fear in the world like the fear you feel when somebody is trying to kill you! This is coming from a guy that made it through the "TET OFFENSIVE" and whos job it was to find and destroy the tunnels the VC would moved and hid in. And a guy that survived colon cancer, THANK GOD!

Now take a group police officers that have probably never had anyone try to kill then with a gun, chainsaw or what ever and maybe you'll understand why 40 shots fired and 12 hits isn't really that bad. I personally try not to judge somebody unless I've walked in their shoes. I'm not trying to start a fight.......this is just my opinion!!!
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 11:52:29 AM »
Mauser, this incident happened in the street next to the home the authorities were called to. I have no idea as to why people are quoting "privacy of your own home" when this incident did not happen in a home?
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline NYH1

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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 12:08:31 PM »
Quote from: Mauser
"The privacy of your own home" is a concept that should be on the endangered species list.  This story doesn't, however, give enough details to tell me whether the shooting was justified.  

One thing I do know is that the courts have given cops much more leeway for searches and entry into people's homes.  Some have no problem with that until it is their home the police barge into.


Mauser, even if the cops went into his or anyone elses house without "PROBABLE CAUSE", if you know its a police officer and you go after him with a weapon of any sort you're probably going to get shot, and rightly so. These are two completely different issues. ONE- is "illegal search and seizure". Two- is "attempted assault or murder of a police officer"

If "ONE" happens, you call your lawyer. If "TWO" happens, you're DEAD !
"ROLL TIDE". . .Back To Back. . .Three In The Last Four Years "GO GIANTS"  "YANKEES"

Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 12:28:43 PM »
Quote from: Fishman029
Mauser, this incident happened in the street next to the home the authorities were called to.


The story does not say that either.

Story leaves a whole lot to be desired. So do some of the readings of the story.
It is the duty of the good citizen to love his country and hate his gubmint.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 01:15:47 PM »
Well, I also mentioned it was on TV. I watched it. I do know for fact that the incident happened in the street. River Street to be exact.

What is there to be desired? And why do you feel this way?
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2005, 01:09:30 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Would not want to register chain saws, just restrict the sale of chains.  
To whom would fe352v8 restrict such sales, inquire Dali Llama? :?  :?  :?
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2005, 02:25:42 AM »
I've got to agree with Leftover, and say, respectfully, that some here are reading some facts into the (written) story that I don't see actually printed there.  Do we know exactly what the mental state of the deceased was or if he knew who he was engaging?  Do we know exactly where he engaged the police?  Again, I'm talking about the written story not the TV news story (I didn't see it).  There are lots of questions that would need to be answered before I would say the police were right.  If this guy was out on the street, for example, and went after the police or innocent bystanders with a running chainsaw and the police made the call to shoot him to protect themselves or innocents then the shooting was right. But I don't think the written story says that.

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2005, 04:01:55 AM »
Hello Dali

(sorry could not help myself, as a liberal we love musical theater)

In true liberal fashsion, you must limit the sale of these chains to certified aborists, 21 and older.  Of course we must make exceptions for chain-saw artists.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2005, 10:36:21 AM »
I do see where you're coming from in retrospect. And ya gotta remember sumtin. I'm in Northeastern PA...aka 'HICKVILLE'  :). Some of these news reporters/journalists/columnists don't know their rear ends from their elbows when it comes to this stuff. Once in a news story (it actually was on the NYC news channel :roll: ) they said there was a gun called an AK-74. Now obviously to us it's just the two numbers swapped around, but it's still WRONG. No such gun as the such. But...yea...I guess I can understand the fact that there is a lack of information.  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline bpjon

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Actually Fishman, there is an AK-74
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2005, 10:48:19 AM »
"Who is John Galt?"

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2005, 11:07:48 AM »
Well I'll be...thanks Jon...never knew...so I'm the idiot in this case and not the media. The 47 and 74 are almost identical (at least in physical looks) and that's probably why I got confused.  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline bpjon

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Can't blame you
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2005, 01:16:20 PM »
The media usually screw up anything firearm related so badly, it is almost newsworthy when they do get it right.
"Who is John Galt?"

Offline Quigley_Sharps

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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2005, 07:49:11 AM »
Watch for a ban on Chainsaw's now near you.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2005, 08:11:22 AM »
Oh, we must contact our state reps. They'll be putting thousands of tree workers out of work! They'll starve families. They'll.... :)  :-D

Don't even say that. Next they'll ban all saws, especially hacksaws because all ya have to do is sneak up on somebody and there ya go; a work in progress. Next we'll have 'chainsaw murderers' before ya kno it.  :-D  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding