Author Topic: New Silhouette Association  (Read 5184 times)

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Offline K2

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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2004, 09:20:43 AM »
And they still won't sanction it?  Perhaps they think it would have to be included in the International for Trophies which it wouldn't unless there was enough demand.    Again Philip I support the sanction of 1/5 scale for those who wish to do it.  Just as I support an over the counter only category.  Sights and barrels from the original mfg.  
Quote from: braud357
Concerning 1/5 scale SB and sanction fees. At my match (Ascension Silhouette, Gonzales LA) we shoot 1/5 scale (or Runts), AND, I send IHMSA the $1.00 sanction fee, just like the "approved" categories.

Offline K2

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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2004, 09:32:39 AM »
Our New group did some analysis and we are not duplicating anything that is currently offered.  Our basic category will not allow aftermarket sights so that is not offered.  We will offer swinger matches and paper postal matches, those are not offered.  Our short range center fire game will not allow bottleneck cartridges and will offer freestyle events, that is not offered.  Our basic rifle game will be shooting at 25,50,75,100 on 3/8ths scale targets with stock sights and scopes of limited magnifaction.  That is not offered.  There will be cast bullet only events and those are not offered either.  It will have a two tiered Jr. Division which currently is not offered.  

Maybe even more importantly it will not be incorparated in Kansas.

Sounds like a completely new game to us  :D

Offline B_Koes

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On a lighter note...
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2004, 10:29:31 AM »
And what's wrong with Kansas?!?  8) :P

You're obviously creating a division between Alaska and Kansas. :)

Offline mugs

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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2004, 12:26:59 PM »
Kelly
Maybe before you made that statement for the shock effect you wanted to get you should have read those back issues. Lee received all the recognition that was to have been expected. Lee left the awards ceremony with more awards than he could carry including the high cast bullet trophy. Lee was still shooting silhouette when we left in mid 1995. Lee has visited us several times since we left Alaska. He quit shooting silhouette because of the 230 mile one way drive and the lack of shooters.
Mugs

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2004, 01:43:27 PM »
[quote="akihmsa"]Our New group did some analysis and we are not duplicating anything that is currently offered.  Our basic category will not allow aftermarket sights so that is not offered.  We will offer swinger matches and paper postal matches, those are not offered.  Our short range center fire game will not allow bottleneck cartridges and will offer freestyle events, that is not offered.  Our basic rifle game will be shooting at 25,50,75,100 on 3/8ths scale targets with stock sights and scopes of limited magnification.  That is not offered.  There will be cast bullet only events and those are not offered either.  It will have a two tiered Jr. Division which currently is not offered.  

Sounds like a completely new game to us   :bye: [/quote
]

Wrong again. Maybe you need to get a few rocket scientists  
 to join, so they can analyze it for you. All the standard pistol class legal guns can be shot in our "Production" classes. It is not required to have aftermarket sights on a gun to shoot it in IHMSA. In fact, a lot (if not most) of the guns in "Production" do have the original sights on them. Cast bullet loads can be shot in any of the BB classes. It's the Shooter's option, there are no "jacketed bullet" only classes. The only pistol classes you plan to offer that are not duplicates of the IHMSA classes are freestyle Field Pistol and a custom unlimited class where the gun has to weigh over 6 pounds. All you have to do to figure this out is ask the question, "Could I shoot this gun in a IHMSA class and comply with the rules of that class?" Your "standard" guns with factory sights are legal in the "Production" classes and there by it is a duplicate of IHMSA classes. All you are doing is not allowing some of the current IHMSA Production legal guns to compete in your standard class, but all of your standard guns are legal in the IHMSA classes. You need come up with new classes that your shooter's gun is not legal to compete in any of the IHMSA classes and you will not be in a conflict of interest.

  You can offer all the rifle events you want as IHMSA does not offer any. If you want to run swinger matches and postal's, go ahead, but they become boring after a while. Silhouette was formed on the idea of knocking down steel targets.

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2004, 05:41:51 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa


What Steve fails to recognize is that as it comes the Daisy shoots perfect scores.  Why would Daisy change it a 40 is a 40?  He also won't admit that Richard Kiesov shots better groups with the Daisy sights than Steve can shoot with his $140 sight set up.  Steve is a good shooter no doubt but even I can shoot within 1% of his scores using a non match adjustable sighted Crosman 1377, and I am not that good!  However I don't blame my equipment when I miss a target I blame my marksmanship skills.  Sure better equipment makes the game easier, is that what we are trying to do?  I believe that is what Unlimited is for.    


Daisy gets no promotional boost from people altering their guns.
[/b]

Kelly, you sure had to work to come up these whoppers. :twisted:
 
  What Kelly fails to recognize is at the upper levels of the INT class the match just begins at the shoot-offs. A Daisy with good sights will get more shoot-offs more often. It also makes getting the '40' easier too, less eye strain in a long match. With the Daisy factory sight it is the luck of the draw, some rear sights are very loose and move around and some are not bad if you adjust them the same way each time. And you have to love a .120" rear notch and a front post wide enough that you can park 2 chickens on it, as that is what it comes with. Most rear sight notchs on silhouette guns are .062" or .080".

  How do you know what size groups I can shoot with my Daisy 747?  I know that my best group with the factory sights was around 3/4" at 54 ft. The group that is in the current IHMSA news was the first group I shot with the new sight setup and it is under 1/2" @ 54'. I'm sure we'll get some smaller groups this fall when we start shooting in our Air league again. We'll have a bunch of people shooting the new sights then. You don't have to adjust the sights while shooting a group, so that is not the best test of a sight system. The one word to remember about sights-repeatability.

I drive 250 miles round trip to the Air league matches and yes I want to shoot the best legal equiptment in the class. I want my shooting to improve from match to match. I believe I have the ability to know when my equiptment is not up to the task. You can shoot a bicycle pump if you want to. You can stand on one leg while shooting if you want to. This sport is not like high diving or ice skating, you don't get extra points for more difficulty. What we do is shoot very small metal targets at very large distances with handguns. The average handgun shooter can not believe the precision we get out of our handguns.

Ihmsa is one of very few shooting organization that encourage new shooters to 'shoot what they own'.....The aftermarket sight rule is a rule that has been proven to work. A new shooter starting out is not required to put aftermarket sights on their gun. Most new shooters need to work on their marksmanship and most factory sights are fine for that. After their ability has improved they can (again, not required) spend a small amount of money on new sights to improve their gun and scores. They do not have to go out and buy a new handgun.  Improvement from match to match or year to year will help to keep them interested in the sport. If after many matches and 1000's of rounds,  they reach the level of competing at the highest level in large matches, they can then look at the need or the want to upgrade to the 'state of the art' guns.

How can you say Daisy will get no boost from people winning with their guns equipt with aftermarket sights? The match report only says "Daisy 747", it doesn't state what kind of sights it has on it. Daisy only cares about what sells more airguns. "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday" is the quote........

On your math..Your 107 agg. is 4% below my 111 agg.  not 1% as you stated.

Next time at least try and get some of your facts straight, maybe somebody will begin to believe you then........

Offline K2

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Re: On a lighter note...
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2004, 06:19:21 AM »
BK

The Kansas rules for corporations are at issue not Kansas or the people of the State.  Ever wonder why the IHMSA was incorporated in Kansas vs. some other state?
Quote from: B_Koes
And what's wrong with Kansas?!?  8) :P

You're obviously creating a division between Alaska and Kansas. :)

Offline K2

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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2004, 08:58:55 AM »
HI Mugs

The lack of silhouette shooters is the issue.  I have talked to the group down in the Kenai and they still have the equipment to run a silhouette match but simply don't have interest in the area.  Same for Fairbanks and Glennallen.  Silhouette was down to 3 shooters when I arrived here.  This is simular to the situation in many other places.  I have talked to many past members and they just are not interested in coming back.  I contend that the push for super specialized equipment used by the majority of the top shooters is and will continue to have a negative effect on the membership numbers.  People are more persuaded by what they see than by what they hear.  We will not grow the membership when the top shooters who the rank and file look up to are using highly specialized equipment to win all of the freestyle events.  Standing is the last place where this isn't always the case.

The concern being expressed is really over the need for constantly upgrading equipment in the basic category of Production.  I truly believe that a category where the guns made in the millions are competitive at the very highest levels will be more successful at attracting members than one based on highly specialized and very rare in terms of numbers guns.  As an association we have run the cost of competing higher ignoring the simple economic principle that the more something costs the less it will sell.  In the blink of an eye we have doubled the cost of what the public will perceive as necessary equipment in AIR Production all so that a few who want a big hooded front sight can have their way.  They now have it by hook and crook and I predict the game will soon go into decline participation wise as a result.   The IZH-46M now costs less than the 747 with Steves sight set added.  

Now that you are in the Phoenix area with a population larger than the whole state of Alaska and the very nice Ben Avery range are you finding lots of interest in Silhouette?  Or are people spending there recreational shooting dollars more in other shooting sports?  

True leaders lead by example.  Our leaders are saying by example that if you want to make it to the top of revolver you need a FA.  For Production you need a BF, or MOA, for .22 Unlimited a Calfee XP or at minimum an Anshutz.  That being the case growth is going to be very illusive.    
Quote from: mugs
Kelly
Maybe before you made that statement for the shock effect you wanted to get you should have read those back issues. Lee received all the recognition that was to have been expected. Lee left the awards ceremony with more awards than he could carry including the high cast bullet trophy. Lee was still shooting silhouette when we left in mid 1995. Lee has visited us several times since we left Alaska. He quit shooting silhouette because of the 230 mile one way drive and the lack of shooters.
Mugs

Offline K2

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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2004, 09:47:16 AM »
HI Steve

Here is the math for 2003, your top score divided by 120 possible X's.  Then divide my top score for 2003 by 120 possible hits.  You will see that we much closer than you wish to indicate, in the 1% range.  

You must be the only fellow having repeatability problems with the Daisy rear sight.  I have tested 7 of them and all are extremely repeatable.  By saying there is a problem you put doubts in peoples minds.  Mike Stimson finds the same to be true.  What you were after was that nice big front hood that simply wasn't available from any AIR gun mfg at any price.   Hooded front sights shouldn't even be part of the AIR game in production.

Richard still outshoots your groups and does so with stock Daisy sights even without a hood  :wink: 50% better!  So do a fair number of others.  Why can these guys do it so well if the sight is a problem?

The more the top shooters specialize their equipment the less chance of selling the sport to the average guy who might be interested.   Our equipment choices have never been better, and yet we fail to be able to grow the participation.  The sport made a wrong turn and needs to think things thru instead of just making rule changes all the time.  Currently we have rules that allow someone to replace sights which have a competitive advantage but will disqualify a gun for changing a screw in the forearm or grip cap which has no competitive advantage at all.  The game needs to be simplified in order to grow.  The more complicated the rules become the harder it is to attract new shooters.  The rules for competition are step one and we don't seem to be able to ever get to step two, instead we focus on rewriting step one all of the time, year after year.  Silly waist of energy.  e="volleyman"]
Quote from: akihmsa


What Steve fails to recognize is that as it comes the Daisy shoots perfect scores.  Why would Daisy change it a 40 is a 40?  He also won't admit that Richard Kiesov shots better groups with the Daisy sights than Steve can shoot with his $140 sight set up.  Steve is a good shooter no doubt but even I can shoot within 1% of his scores using a non match adjustable sighted Crosman 1377, and I am not that good!  However I don't blame my equipment when I miss a target I blame my marksmanship skills.  Sure better equipment makes the game easier, is that what we are trying to do?  I believe that is what Unlimited is for.    


Daisy gets no promotional boost from people altering their guns.
[/b]

Kelly, you sure had to work to come up these whoppers. :twisted:
 
  What Kelly fails to recognize is at the upper levels of the INT class the match just begins at the shoot-offs. A Daisy with good sights will get more shoot-offs more often. It also makes getting the '40' easier too, less eye strain in a long match. With the Daisy factory sight it is the luck of the draw, some rear sights are very loose and move around and some are not bad if you adjust them the same way each time. And you have to love a .120" rear notch and a front post wide enough that you can park 2 chickens on it, as that is what it comes with. Most rear sight notchs on silhouette guns are .062" or .080".

  How do you know what size groups I can shoot with my Daisy 747?  I know that my best group with the factory sights was around 3/4" at 54 ft. The group that is in the current IHMSA news was the first group I shot with the new sight setup and it is under 1/2" @ 54'. I'm sure we'll get some smaller groups this fall when we start shooting in our Air league again. We'll have a bunch of people shooting the new sights then. You don't have to adjust the sights while shooting a group, so that is not the best test of a sight system. The one word to remember about sights-repeatability.

I drive 250 miles round trip to the Air league matches and yes I want to shoot the best legal equiptment in the class. I want my shooting to improve from match to match. I believe I have the ability to know when my equiptment is not up to the task. You can shoot a bicycle pump if you want to. You can stand on one leg while shooting if you want to. This sport is not like high diving or ice skating, you don't get extra points for more difficulty. What we do is shoot very small metal targets at very large distances with handguns. The average handgun shooter can not believe the precision we get out of our handguns.

Ihmsa is one of very few shooting organization that encourage new shooters to 'shoot what they own'.....The aftermarket sight rule is a rule that has been proven to work. A new shooter starting out is not required to put aftermarket sights on their gun. Most new shooters need to work on their marksmanship and most factory sights are fine for that. After their ability has improved they can (again, not required) spend a small amount of money on new sights to improve their gun and scores. They do not have to go out and buy a new handgun.  Improvement from match to match or year to year will help to keep them interested in the sport. If after many matches and 1000's of rounds,  they reach the level of competing at the highest level in large matches, they can then look at the need or the want to upgrade to the 'state of the art' guns.

How can you say Daisy will get no boost from people winning with their guns equipt with aftermarket sights? The match report only says "Daisy 747", it doesn't state what kind of sights it has on it. Daisy only cares about what sells more airguns. "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday" is the quote........

On your math..Your 107 agg. is 4% below my 111 agg.  not 1% as you stated.

Next time at least try and get some of your facts straight, maybe somebody will begin to believe you then........

Offline B_Koes

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Re: On a lighter note...
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2004, 02:42:10 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa
BK

The Kansas rules for corporations are at issue not Kansas or the people of the State.  Ever wonder why the IHMSA was incorporated in Kansas vs. some other state?
Quote from: B_Koes
And what's wrong with Kansas?!?  8) :P

You're obviously creating a division between Alaska and Kansas. :)


Actually I have wondered why, but not enough to make me want to investigate any further.

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2004, 07:41:41 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa
 

You must be the only fellow having repeatability problems with the Daisy rear sight.  I have tested 7 of them and all are extremely repeatable.  By saying there is a problem you put doubts in peoples minds.  Mike Stimson finds the same to be true.  What you were after was that nice big front hood that simply wasn't available from any AIR gun mfg at any price.   Hooded front sights shouldn't even be part of the AIR game in production.[/b]

If you would have read my post I said it is the luck of the draw. I had to buy 10 rear sights from Daisy and installed the tightest fitting one. I had to do this on several other 747's. I saw one brand new 747 that had a frame that was so tight that Daisy had to file the plastic rear sight for it to fit in the frame. Most are loose, some worse that others. Daisy has a little plastic tab on the rear sight that is suppose to hold the sight to one side. This tab can lose its spring and in some cases break off.
  What I "was after" was to offer a sight package to the serious shooters that is the same high quality as the sights on their other silhouette guns and could be setup the same as the rest of their guns. IE. narrow rear notches and tight light bars. Does a new shooter need them to shoot a perfect score? I have shot 15+ 40's and 60's and the 111 3 gun agg. with the factory Daisy sights, so it can be done. Are the Bomar's a big improvement? You bet they are!!!! Hooded front sights are allowed in all the other IHMSA "Production" classes. Why not in Air??? Oh, that's right, you wrote the air rules and you didn't want to allow them.....
  I believe that Air's biggest potential growth is in the northern states with the long winters and short summers. It will grow if there are people who care enough to promote it. I plan to continue to promote all IHMSA events. We know where you stand, now that you "taken your ball and gone home". You are hoping that IHMSA does fails as your last post proves.....You have been nothing but negative the last 6+ months...it's time to get over it.....or seek medical help....

Richard still outshoots your groups and does so with stock Daisy sights even without a hood   50% better ???? So do a fair number of others.????  Why can these guys do it so well if the sight is a problem?

As I said in my post, you don't adjust your sights while shooting groups. As long as you don't bump them and have the same sight picture for each shot, you can shoot a good group. The Daisy 747 has the same brand Walther barrel as many 10 meter guns, so it has the ability to be a great shooter. Also the sighting point on the paper you are shooting groups at can be any size. Most people shooting groups will shoot at a large square or a round bull.  Shooting at the smaller metal silhouette targets (which is what this game is all about) is a different story or any person who can shoot a sub 1" group would never miss a silhouette target. Most shooters will adjust their sights at least 4 times during a match, more if sighters are allowed before. Bomars have the proven repeatability that the advancing silhouette shooter requires.

Offline K2

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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2004, 09:46:47 AM »
Hi Steve

Wrong again.  The only positive direction for the association to go in is the one which will grow the game.  That you have shot 15 40's with the stock sights proves that they are more than adequate for the game.  All you did was to raise the cost of playing a game and that is the negative direction.  

Equipment racing kills wide participation in any sport always will.   Do you not see that the IHMSA is down to less than 1000 shooters anymore with the formula of better and better equipment?  What normal person would buy 10 Daisy sights to find the best one, I am laughing so hard cause I still shoot the 1st 1377C I bought and didn't change a thing, made INT. in Production with it.  Made the 100 club and every other thing I wish to do with it, including the very first 40 in Unlimited while using it with a penny on the forearm for a muzzle weight.  Every Daisy I have shot is a good one capable of 40's including the 717.  Not one in a 100 shooters in America thinks like you do buying 10 sights from the same mfg to select the best one, perhaps that is why the game is dying out.  Can winning a pressed wood $10 plaque be worth this much effort to you? it sure isn't to me.  All you are doing is to turn a very good production gun into an Unlimited gun that we will call "Production"  This is the same thing we did with the BF's, MOA's and XL's and now TC has left the game.   Are you checking each and every pellet to make sure it is good enough to shoot or do you simply shake em out of the box and use them like I do?  You might be wound a little to tight Steve if you think these things are important while the membership is declining.  Aftermarket Sights didn't keep TC in the game and they won't help AIR either, just the opposite will be the outcome.

In the early days were you one of the guys that bought 20 guns just to pick the best one and sell the rest so you could get an advantage?   I had never heard of such stuff till you mentioned this.  I guess this is why some atheletes in other sports take steroids to win even though they increase their chances of an early death.  Competitors might be ill equiped to look at the big picture of what really is important to a sport.  I saw the same mentality at a pinewood derby race for cub scouts where the "winning" car was obviously built by the dad and not the cub scout, it was just too perfect.  Wrong message for all the other cubs that lost a kids event to a grown man and everyone knew it too.  In the big scheme of things in life silhouette shooting isn't a pimple on a nats backside.  This is a recreational activity or have I missed something?

Here is another idea you might choke on.  After 5 or 10 (at most) shoot off targets if it is still tied we just declare it a tie and move on!  Have two "winners"  :wink:  I have witnessed two long shoot offs that were won because the other fellow ran out of ammo, nothing to do with who was a better shot.  The game was conquered when the 40's became a regular thing.  It is time to enjoy it for what it is, just another game.  Lets get the next generation interested in enjoying silhouette instead of worrying over how many shoot off targets we might be able to hit.   Very few care about such minutia and that is what the aftermarket sights are all about minutia that is important only at some big match.  

I and many others shoot silhouette because it is fun.  Maybe we are missing something?  If the low priced guns in AIR Production caused you so much heartburn why didn't you just stick to the Unlimiteds?  It would have been a lot easier and we would still have a true $150 or under category instead of the $300 category with a title of $150 or less msrp.  

Gotta go for now but if the Board thinks like you do collectively enjoy the International cause it might be the last one before the association implodes :D  
Quote from: volleyman
Quote from: akihmsa
 

You must be the only fellow having repeatability problems with the Daisy rear sight.  I have tested 7 of them and all are extremely repeatable.  By saying there is a problem you put doubts in peoples minds.  Mike Stimson finds the same to be true.  What you were after was that nice big front hood that simply wasn't available from any AIR gun mfg at any price.   Hooded front sights shouldn't even be part of the AIR game in production.[/b]

If you would have read my post I said it is the luck of the draw. I had to buy 10 rear sights from Daisy and installed the tightest fitting one. I had to do this on several other 747's. I saw one brand new 747 that had a frame that was so tight that Daisy had to file the plastic rear sight for it to fit in the frame. Most are loose, some worse that others. Daisy has a little plastic tab on the rear sight that is suppose to hold the sight to one side. This tab can lose its spring and in some cases break off.
  What I "was after" was to offer a sight package to the serious shooters that is the same high quality as the sights on their other silhouette guns and could be setup the same as the rest of their guns. IE. narrow rear notches and tight light bars. Does a new shooter need them to shoot a perfect score? I have shot 15+ 40's and 60's and the 111 3 gun agg. with the factory Daisy sights, so it can be done. Are the Bomar's a big improvement? You bet they are!!!! Hooded front sights are allowed in all the other IHMSA "Production" classes. Why not in Air??? Oh, that's right, you wrote the air rules and you didn't want to allow them.....
  I believe that Air's biggest potential growth is in the northern states with the long winters and short summers. It will grow if there are people who care enough to promote it. I plan to continue to promote all IHMSA events. We know where you stand, now that you "taken your ball and gone home". You are hoping that IHMSA does fails as your last post proves.....You have been nothing but negative the last 6+ months...it's time to get over it.....or seek medical help....

Richard still outshoots your groups and does so with stock Daisy sights even without a hood   50% better ???? So do a fair number of others.????  Why can these guys do it so well if the sight is a problem?

As I said in my post, you don't adjust your sights while shooting groups. As long as you don't bump them and have the same sight picture for each shot, you can shoot a good group. The Daisy 747 has the same brand Walther barrel as many 10 meter guns, so it has the ability to be a great shooter. Also the sighting point on the paper you are shooting groups at can be any size. Most people shooting groups will shoot at a large square or a round bull.  Shooting at the smaller metal silhouette targets (which is what this game is all about) is a different story or any person who can shoot a sub 1" group would never miss a silhouette target. Most shooters will adjust their sights at least 4 times during a match, more if sighters are allowed before. Bomars have the proven repeatability that the advancing silhouette shooter requires.

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2004, 01:11:40 PM »
I see you didn't take my advice and seek medical help. I'm sure there are drugs that will help you to back to reality again.

You make the claim that after "aftermarket sights" were allowed we began to loose members. I and others claim that it slowed the lost of members and it got others to try the sport(myself for one). I could make the claim that after you became a member we have lost members. You may dispute that it is not all your fault, but you have driven most of the people away from the IHMSAAIR web page with your constant wining and have now brought your negitive pouting to these other forums.

I like the fact that you claim the factory Daisy sights are more than adequate for the game. Then in your next statement you claim that I have raised the price to compete in the class and that aftermarket sights are now required to compete. Which is it???? You can't be on both sides of an issue. Unless you plan on being John Kerry's running mate.

Kelly, it's time to find you a good shrink. :twisted:

Offline K2

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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2004, 02:37:19 PM »
HI Steve

Yes the stock Daisy sights are adequate to shoot 40's as it has been done many times.  As you rightly stated the Bomars are vastly superior in the shoot offs especially with the big front hood.   That is why you said you went to the trouble of bringing them out.  They are a competitive advantage that can be had for a price which equals  buying targets.   The next step will be raising or eliminating the $ cap.  

What you simply refuse to admit is the fact that people watch what the winners at the International use.  When that equipment is more than they will pay to play they find something else to do.  This is the reason for so many shooters leaving.  Joe Tesmers articles on the winners of the International state plainly the competitive advantage is with the custom guns.  Not very long ago the lead article was on the Nesika Bay gun at $2500.  FA's get on the cover all the time.  If Bomars on Daisy's win the shoot offs then that is where the bar will be raised to $ wise.   The message is loud and clear if you want to be competitive spend lots of $ if not stay in A class.  You won't grow something where all the leaders use top of the line equipment that is expensive and tell the others hey we have a class system you don't need what I shoot until you get to AAA.  Well AAA  comes pretty fast in this game.  Perception is reality to people.  If they percieve that only the good stuff can win that is where the focus will be.  Don't confuse fair with popular.  At whatever level the bar is set the competition is fair.  You are simply going to eliminate the budget shooters as the top equipment gets more expensive.  This is where I am at and many of the people I shoot with agree.  The top equipment is expensive and not readily available.  That is a problem, especially when you leave nothing available for the budget shooters accept if they stay low in class ranking.  

Did I cause the renville club to go under all the way from Alaska?  Or was it something else.  Speaking of John Kerry, wasn't it you that said you were not for aftermarket sights in AIR Production on my yahoo site and then you were the first to build a set up?  That sounds like both side of the issue to me.

Things are crystal clear now, winning at the International is more important than growth to you.  I think just the opposite.  The International is minor compared to growing the sport.  

Quote from: volleyman
I see you didn't take my advice and seek medical help. I'm sure there are drugs that will help you to back to reality again.

You make the claim that after "aftermarket sights" were allowed we began to loose members. I and others claim that it slowed the lost of members and it got others to try the sport(myself for one). I could make the claim that after you became a member we have lost members. You may dispute that it is not all your fault, but you have driven most of the people away from the IHMSAAIR web page with your constant wining and have now brought your negitive pouting to these other forums.

I like the fact that you claim the factory Daisy sights are more than adequate for the game. Then in your next statement you claim that I have raised the price to compete in the class and that aftermarket sights are now required to compete. Which is it???? You can't be on both sides of an issue. Unless you plan on being John Kerry's running mate.

Kelly, it's time to find you a good shrink. :twisted:

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2004, 04:14:32 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa

Speaking of John Kerry, wasn't it you that said you were not for aftermarket sights in AIR Production on my yahoo site and then you were the first to build a set up?  That sounds like both side of the issue to me.[/b]

Nope, mostly indifference.
I've always said it won't make any difference if they were allowed or not. It just gives the shooters an option. You have blown up the effect that aftermarket sights will have on the growth of the class. You are the lone doomsayer on this. How come no one else is predicting the doom of IHMSA Air??  
  I said that there were other IHMSA rules that should of been looked at first. They could have corrected this one later. But once I learned the results of the vote and that the Board was going to accept the vote of the membership and not keep voting on it, I looked into designing a sight system for the most popular gun in Air production. You and others were bemoaning the fact that there were no aftermarket sights available once the rule was passed. So I built one.....and had it approved by IHMSA.


The total cost of a Daisy 747 with an aftermarket sight is still the best bargain in all of silhouette. You are getting a gun that is the "top gun"  in Production and Standing. It is also one of the best guns in Unlimited and Unlimited Standing Iron Sight. You are getting a gun that can compete in 4 classes and be very competitive in all of them. At a cost of about $60 a class, it's a great bargain for the new or current shooter....Also all orders before and during the 2004 Internationals will receive a 10% discount. I may also have a few blems (an imperfect finish) for sale at the Internationals at a larger discount.

Offline K2

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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2004, 04:52:35 PM »
Hi Steve

Just got off the phone with an old member who has a 4 digit IHMSA number.  According to his memory the aftermarkets were allowed on the Rugers, TC's Smiths etc. after the boutique guns were allowed into production.  Appearently many of the TC and Ruger crowd said that since Bomars etc. were not manufactured by the boutique mfg as TC and Ruger did and that they were only available on these boutique "production" guns that the TC and Ruger shooters were ready to march.  Aftermarkets were a bone thrown to appease the masses.  He also tells me that it has always been the mass production shooter who has done the giving and the specialty gun shooters that do the taking.  His recalls IHMSA always being very controversial and recalled the Hanawacker (sp) mess at an International that caused Washington state shooters to leave in droves.  That is all hearsay of course but it sounds plausible to me because the only low cost out of the box level playing field was AIR Production until this year.  The association just can't seem to have even a single area for this group.  I went along with USIS to be flexible and in hopes that this would satisfy the group who wanted better iron sights.  Guess my friend was correct there is only take from one group and give from the other.  

On AIR I was there and know for a fact that Bomars were not available to anyone in the Production categories and would not have been except for rule changes.  This instantly doubles the cost.   That IHMSA is going to be a money game is pretty obvious at this point.  May as well drop the $ cap, affordabilty must be a sin.  

Quote from: volleyman
Quote from: akihmsa

Speaking of John Kerry, wasn't it you that said you were not for aftermarket sights in AIR Production on my yahoo site and then you were the first to build a set up?  That sounds like both side of the issue to me.[/b]

Nope, mostly indifference.
I've always said it won't make any difference if they were allowed or not. It just gives the shooters an option. You have blown up the effect that aftermarket sights will have on the growth of the class. You are the lone doomsayer on this. How come no one else is predicting the doom of IHMSA Air??  
  I said that there were other IHMSA rules that should of been looked at first. They could have corrected this one later. But once I learned the results of the vote and that the Board was going to accept the vote of the membership and not keep voting on it, I looked into designing a sight system for the most popular gun in Air production. You and others were bemoaning the fact that there were no aftermarket sights available once the rule was passed. So I built one.....and had it approved by IHMSA.


The total cost of a Daisy 747 with an aftermarket sight is still the best bargain in all of silhouette. You are getting a gun that is the "top gun"  in Production and Standing. It is also one of the best guns in Unlimited and Unlimited Standing Iron Sight. You are getting a gun that can compete in 4 classes and be very competitive in all of them. At a cost of about $60 a class, it's a great bargain for the new or current shooter....Also all orders before and during the 2004 Internationals will receive a 10% discount. I may also have a few blems (an imperfect finish) for sale at the Internationals at a larger discount.

Offline volleyman

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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2004, 06:26:56 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa


 apparently many of the TC and Ruger crowd said that since Bomars etc. were not manufactured by the boutique mfg as TC and Ruger did and that they were only available on these boutique "production" guns that the TC and Ruger shooters were ready to march.[/b]  

That proves my point that allowing aftermarket sights saved us members. If we would have said no aftermarket sights for Rugers we would have lost more members. How can you blame the boutique guns?? They just made better guns that complied with the existing IHMSA rules, just as S&W and Ruger could have but they didn't think we were worth it.


  That is all hearsay of course but it sounds plausible to me because the only low cost out of the box level playing field was AIR Production until this year.  

You are the King of hearsay, so don't stop now.
  It's still low cost, the cost of the "optional" sight package is less than the motel cost for 2 nights at the Internationals. about the same cost as 700 rds of good .22lr ammo, less than the cost of 3 tanks of gas in my pickup. It will not take food off the table. It turns a good gun into a great gun at a very low cost.

   

That IHMSA is going to be a money game is pretty obvious at this point.  May as well drop the $ cap, affordabilty must be a sin.  

The price cap in Air will stay in effect for a very long time, as the last thing the Board is going to do is change any more Air rules after all the "fun" they had with the last one. And that is "inside" hearsay information.

Offline Bad Eyes

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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2004, 08:55:15 PM »
Hi Kelly:

What will be the class breakout points for your new categories?  What scores will put you in what classes?

Thanks,
Rick

Offline K2

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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2004, 06:57:14 AM »
HI Rick

That is being worked out currently based on what known shooters are capable with using the low budget equipment for the Standard gun categories.  There are only going to be 4 classes instead of 6 as many MD's have been asking for that to simplify running the match.  

We are going to have a minimum pull weight for triggers of at least 1 lb.  Stock sights will be required.   We are looking into liablilty limiting things to encourage people to be MD's.  Empty Chamber flags will be required for example.  For Standard .22 categories we are looking into limiting ammo to high velocity only and other ways to encourage promo ammo for keeping the costs as low as possible.   For the center fire short course (out to 100 yards) only standard handgun cartridges will be allowed of a minimum caliber, either .30 or .35 yet to be decided.  

The pre-teen jr. program will be a 20 round course of fire more in keeping with this age range's endurance.  We are debating whether this will be all 4 animals at reduced distances or just the turkeys and rams.   All the youth regardless of age will need to "graduate" to the full disciplines after showing proficiency on the reduced course.  Optics will not be a part of the pre-teen jr program.  

The goal is to attract shooters that the current associations are not attracting.  We doubt that many who are set up for the current games are going to want to downgrade equipment in order to play this simpler version of silhouette.

Offline K2

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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2004, 07:14:15 AM »
Hi Steve

The aftermarkets may have slowed the decline for awhile, but they have not saved the game.  My buddy told the real issue was the boutique guns being allowed to pass the "production" test, instead of being put into a custom gun category.  The Production winner at the International will not be using what the general public considers a "Production" gun.  That determines what they perceive as required.   Over time this has caused the major mfgs to slowly leave the game.  Browning dropped their silhouette model, tc has dropped the 10 inch barrels and any wildcats from their standard offerings.  The perception is that one needs speciallized equipment in order to do well.  People watch the best shooters when they watch a match.  When all the top guys are using specialized equipment that is what is remembered by the viewer.  

If you want to entice a Ruger owner then you are more likely to succeed if he sees Rugers being shot at the top of the game.  Leading by example is the key to growth.  We can preach shoot what you own all day long but that only works if they see what they own doing well.  
Quote from: volleyman
Quote from: akihmsa


 apparently many of the TC and Ruger crowd said that since Bomars etc. were not manufactured by the boutique mfg as TC and Ruger did and that they were only available on these boutique "production" guns that the TC and Ruger shooters were ready to march.[/b]  

That proves my point that allowing aftermarket sights saved us members. If we would have said no aftermarket sights for Rugers we would have lost more members. How can you blame the boutique guns?? They just made better guns that complied with the existing IHMSA rules, just as S&W and Ruger could have but they didn't think we were worth it.


  That is all hearsay of course but it sounds plausible to me because the only low cost out of the box level playing field was AIR Production until this year.  

You are the King of hearsay, so don't stop now.
  It's still low cost, the cost of the "optional" sight package is less than the motel cost for 2 nights at the Internationals. about the same cost as 700 rds of good .22lr ammo, less than the cost of 3 tanks of gas in my pickup. It will not take food off the table. It turns a good gun into a great gun at a very low cost.

   

That IHMSA is going to be a money game is pretty obvious at this point.  May as well drop the $ cap, affordabilty must be a sin.  

The price cap in Air will stay in effect for a very long time, as the last thing the Board is going to do is change any more Air rules after all the "fun" they had with the last one. And that is "inside" hearsay information.

Offline K2

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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2004, 07:54:06 AM »
Rick

The key to success is salesmanship.  In America you can watch NASCAR on the major networks because it is popular.  The polularity is because the cars look like what is in the showroom with a bunch of stickers added.  People can connect with it.  Now those cars are anything but a showroom vehicle, we all know that and the Ford that Rusty Wallace drives or the Chevy that Jeff Gordon drives is anything but a Ford or Chevy showroom car.  Formula racing is much less popular in America cause people do not connect with the cars as much as they do with the so called "Stock" cars.  Our Production and Unlimited categories have many paralellels to these auto racing ventures.  

If we wish to grow then we need to connect to the general shooting public.  The highly speciallized equipment just doesn't do that for us no matter how hard we try.  It really is that simple which is why this is so frustrating to those who see it clearly.  We could have both ends of the equipment specrum except for the efforts of those who must win at all costs who always seem to gravitate to the lowest equipment games and turn them into a specialty game.   This is what we just witnessed with AIR Production.   According to Steve Martins the Board is now going to leave the $ cap in place out of fear of the fall out.  That is good, too bad they didn't see it when they approved the aftermarket sights without so much as asking the AIR shooters if the majority they wanted it.   The desire to win has clouded their vision to the path to growth.   Anyone who shoots this game for long knows it is a much bigger accomplishment to shoot a 25 standing with a stock gun than to shoot a 40 with a UAS ray gun.  However when you read a match report you get the opposite impression.  We are pushing the wrong impression and as a result cannot sell the game to enough new people to even equal the number leaving.  This is a fun game, NOT a serious competition for the majority of the members I have met.  The serious shooting competitons pay the winners, including the Olympics.  Ask a serious trap shooter if winning is worth the effort? You will be amazed at what you learn.  

The last thing we need is to have "serious" shooters at our small matches around the country.  All it takes is for a serious shooter to miss a target and start to swear or complain about target setting or something else like his gun or ammo and soon no one wants to be anywhere near them.  Until we focus on fun, making a big deal out of a new fellows first 5 in a row on the different animals etc. instead of telling him to buy better equipment growth is impossible.  
Quote from: Bad Eyes
Hi Kelly:

What will be the class breakout points for your new categories?  What scores will put you in what classes?

Thanks,
Rick

Offline IHMSA80x80

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« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2004, 05:11:56 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
We are going to have a minimum pull weight for triggers of at least 1 lb.  
 
 
Who is going to check these trigger pulls? The already overworked match directors who will now need to purchase a trigger-pull gauge?  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
Stock sights will be required.  
 
 
Again, the match director will need to verify each gun's sight system, requiring him to know all the manufacturer's standard and optional sights.  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
We are looking into liablilty limiting things to encourage people to be MD's.  Empty Chamber flags will be required for example.  
 
 
Since when is liability a limiting factor in getting people to volunteer for match director duties? Shooters don't want to work, they want someone else to do all the work for them.  And Empty Chamber Flags? No one I know owns these things. Do you disqualify a shooter before he even fires a shot because he doesn't have one? Not exactly a new, friendly organization. I guess the match director will now have to purchase these items as well and sell them to the shooters.  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
For Standard .22 categories we are looking into limiting ammo to high velocity only and other ways to encourage promo ammo for keeping the costs as low as possible.  
 
 
Foreign ammo manufacturers make High Velocity ammo that is just as expensive as the standard stuff...ever hear of Eley Tenex Fast? What's to keep a shooter from dumping the crap ammo from the factory boxes and refilling it with match ammo? Oh yeah, I know, no shooters in this game will ever be looking for an edge in any of your rules. Right, I forgot, the lowly match director must memorize by sight ALL the ammo manufacturers products to determine which ones conform to "promo ammo" specs.  Now I have to check the headstamps of each rimfire round to determine acceptability.  Of course, a Super-X headstamp can be the same on high velocity ammo and match subsonic ammo. Do I need to purchase a chronograph to check all ammo now?  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
For the center fire short course (out to 100 yards) only standard handgun cartridges will be allowed of a minimum caliber, either .30 or .35 yet to be decided.  
 
 
Will handloaded ammo be allowed in this game, or only factory ammo?  
 
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
The goal is to attract shooters that the current associations are not attracting.  We doubt that many who are set up for the current games are going to want to downgrade equipment in order to play this simpler version of silhouette.
 
 
Simpler game? ....hardly!

Offline Hammer47

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« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2004, 10:12:51 AM »
I'm sure glad I found out how much fun the silhouette game is BEFORE I read all this horseshit.  Had I read this thread first I seriously doubt I would have left benchrest and tried this game.  And I thought only benchresters invented stuff to worry about.  I spent a wonderful 4 hours at Tusco this morning razor tuning for the Internationals.  SHOOTING IS WHAT IT IS ABOUT GUYS, NOT ALL OF THIS DRIVEL.  Let Kelly do what he wants and the rest of the world will do what the rest of the world will do.  Let's put this crapola to bed and go shoot.  Regards...g

Offline braud357

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« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2004, 10:31:10 AM »
Gary - I agree with you. I have participated in this discussion - but, frankly, the topic has started to "smell". Everyone is entitled to their opinion - either we agree or not is up to us. See you in Tusco !! Philip Braud

Offline Gun Zorro

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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2004, 07:26:54 PM »
Kelly, Please contact me for your first Alaskan Silhouette Shooter's Trailer Park Championship (ASS TP Championship).
I am sure you don't realize how you come across in your sales pitch. You constantly seem condescending and biased toward who you want in the game! It's not like there aren't plenty of people in the world with money enough to buy guns, even expensive ones. It couldn't be more clear that you have a sign saying: "We don't want no super-acheivers with their high dollar rigs". Compared to many hobbies, this is a bargain, even if you buy a $1000-$2000 gun every year or two, and keep trading up using your old stuff toward the newer. It is not as though you are REQUIRED to buy a new gun every year! Members have complete freedom of choice to upgrade or not. I've never seen it be a real problem for the vast majority of dedicated shooters, silhouette of otherwise.
It's like you are the Preacher of Poverty, wanting to take away the temptation to up-grade or excel.
Compared to the costs of ammo, club entries and of travel to several champinships a year, the cost a reliable accurate gun that won't be spending a lot of time in the gunsafe starts to look pretty reasonable. I just don't think you take these costs into consideration, since you don't have this type of involvement.  That's fine, just don't try to build a sport around your scaled-down expectations.
Even if someone makes a good living, they have to take quite a bit of time off to get good at this or any other sport.
Now, if you are talking about a young family man who has to make the choice between baby food and .22 ammo, that's a problem, and only time will help with that.
My buddy Scott Mann comes to mind. He has a terrific wife and two small boys. He's no millionaire. Yet he still finds ways to work a little overtime or do some side work to afford going to two or three matches a month and hit the big championships. His wife is supportive and he has a fire in him and finds a way around obstacles that would stop less motivated people.
You might as well put in your rules that the spouses must support the shooter. Motivated shooters will find a way to participate.
The sport has a wide range of people from all walks of life and income levels. That's one of the things I enjoy. I can rub elbows with millionaires that are completely down to earth, or humbler people just getting by and trying to enjoy a little relaxation. The incredible lack of pretense is what I love about almost all silhouette shooters.
But if you appeal to strictly the lowest common denominator, that's what you'll get, unless some rabble rousers like Steve or I get involved. I don't think anyone will cotton to the idea of being being stigmatized as not having enough money or skill to allow moving up to better equipment.
(Maybe the 4 classes should be: Middle, Lower Middle, Low and Food Stamp)
Once again I'll admit to being shameless in my aspirations: I want to hit the smallest possible target, at the furthest possible distance, against the greatest competition, each and every time I pull the trigger. Nothing else will satisfy me. If your Ruger GP100 will do this, I'm on board. So far, I must say I have found it completely lacking in the long range accuracy department. (I seldom realize my aspirations, that's why I strive for them! But I keep pluggin along without too much sour grapes.)
Regarding shoot-offs: As Steve said, that is where the game begins for the top shooters. Everything else is a prelude to the excitement of hitting extremely difficult targets under public scrutiny. The matches I attend NEVER have two winners! The shoot-off is always conducted until one clear winner emerges, whether that takes 5 shots or 50.
Not everyone will become an "elite" marksman. But that doesn't mean they don't try to improve themselves or appreciate the skills and efforts of the top shooters. I enjoy meeting the Top Dogs when I get the chance.
The more you pontificate your views, the more it seems that you have a real ax to grind with "elite" shooters and have been isolated from real competition and the excitement of buying new guns. Jim

Offline 54914

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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2004, 04:18:45 PM »
At one time I was looking forward to travelling to Alaska and shooting silhouette there, and meeting Mike.  From what I read here, I would not feel comfortable shooting with Mike, or those individuals whom he professes to represent.  Unless I were to show up and shoot poorly with a type of gun which I do not possess, (even my Ruger SBH has Bo-Mars and Hogue grips), I would be afraid of being seen as an elitist interloper who is insensitive to the 'little people' who just want to shoot what they have and have a good time, but still win trophies.  Whether it is true or not, that is the impression Mike has given me of his band of shooters up there.  He or his shooters will be allowed at my matches, but there will be no politics discussed, and whining will not be tolerated.

Maybe my wife and I are due for a trip to Hawaii.  It would be nice to shoot in view of Koko Head.

Larry H.

Offline Gun Zorro

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« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2004, 07:56:04 PM »
Larry -- come on, bud -- you don't want to take a chance of disqualifying yourself or me over the whining issue. You better rescind that range rule pronto!! You were just overwrought from Kelly's intimidating condescension. -- Jimbolina (Does that answer the profile question? Oops, my wife just came in, and the kids are yelling. . .)

Offline K2

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« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2004, 12:51:14 PM »
Larry you are welcome anytime with any equipment you choose to bring, Hogue grips and Bomars would just put you in with the FA's just as you are shooting with now.  You could also shoot it in a budget category by putting the stock sights back on if you wished to.  You will find the fellows here are a good bunch to shoot with.  I can handle all the racers calling me an ass etc. for wanting to have just a few equipment limited areas.  They don't want to have them and that is fine.  You and I have conversed in private and you know pretty much where I stand on wanting to grow the sports participation.  Not one single time have I been for outlawing what is currently in use nor will I.  However I stand by the idea of a budget area of the sport.  One where the use of Bomars and Eley don't limit the people who will participate.  

Larry just look at the local matches and tell me the association can't do better, we both know it can.  I would suggest you look at the treatment I have gotten for the high crime of wanting a basic $150 AIR gun category.  Anyone who has had the desire to keep the costs down and with them the scores has been ridiculed to the point of moving on.  Your # of 54000 and the fact that we now have about 1000 shooters shows that too many are moving on.  IHMSA has gone thru nearly 60000 shooters to retain 1000!  This means that for every 50+ shooters we can hope to retain just one.  It is time to re-evaluate the direction we are going.  Meanwhile the matches get a little smaller each season.  

You and I would enjoy a day or two shooting together and putting the politics of a game far behind us, I can gaurantee it cause we both enjoy shooting, and that is the most important thing.  If only GZ can have his way you will loose folks at the bottom end of the equipment spectrim.  If only I can have my way we would loose those who enjoy the best money can buy.  Fact is we can have both ends and the entire middle if we want it.  Ever wonder why my end of the equipment spectrim always has to give in?

 
Quote from: 54914
At one time I was looking forward to travelling to Alaska and shooting silhouette there, and meeting Mike.  From what I read here, I would not feel comfortable shooting with Mike, or those individuals whom he professes to represent.  Unless I were to show up and shoot poorly with a type of gun which I do not possess, (even my Ruger SBH has Bo-Mars and Hogue grips), I would be afraid of being seen as an elitist interloper who is insensitive to the 'little people' who just want to shoot what they have and have a good time, but still win trophies.  Whether it is true or not, that is the impression Mike has given me of his band of shooters up there.  He or his shooters will be allowed at my matches, but there will be no politics discussed, and whining will not be tolerated.

Maybe my wife and I are due for a trip to Hawaii.  It would be nice to shoot in view of Koko Head.

Larry H.

Offline K2

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« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2004, 01:29:18 PM »
80x80 you are looking for problems that are minor at best.  A 1 lb weight and a loop of string is a great trigger gauge.  You only need to check the winners equipment not everyones (we can profile ;~) no need to waist time.  

Chamber flags are 10 cents each.  20 will last you a year or two.  Hand them out and get them back.  Pretty simple.  

Shooters are not all lazy or a bunch of cheaters.  You need to hang out with a more folks.  

Subsonic is easy to notice.  It is noticeably quieter.  Eley is easy to spot as well.  There is no advantage to Eley unless no one else is using it.  This is the main falacy to the equipment race.  Once Eley becomes the standard then their is no advantage in its use.  Everyone is spending more but the competition level has stayed the same.  Same for the Bomars or any other thing.  Once "it" becomes the standard there goes the advantage.  You do thin the competition numbers which in itself makes the top easier to get to.  It is easier to "win" from a field of 3 shooters than it is from a field of 30.  

Liability is a much bigger issue than you realize as to why we can not get MD's.  Much more than laziness.  

Why do I know a budget game can work?  AIR production is why.  It worked, cheaters were not in abundance.  No MD had problems enforcing the rules.  There were not issues of people reworking the stock sights. The so called problems just don't come up much.  Scores were good, costs were low, and folks generally had a bunch of fun.  No budget equipment isn't a problem, you just need to give it a try.  

As a matter of fact I am willing to bet you can shoot very well with very low budget equipment and ammo including a 1 lb trigger.  It will cost you a few points on average but that isn't much.  

Quote from: IHMSA80x80
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
We are going to have a minimum pull weight for triggers of at least 1 lb.  
 
 
Who is going to check these trigger pulls? The already overworked match directors who will now need to purchase a trigger-pull gauge?  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
Stock sights will be required.  
 
 
Again, the match director will need to verify each gun's sight system, requiring him to know all the manufacturer's standard and optional sights.  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
We are looking into liablilty limiting things to encourage people to be MD's.  Empty Chamber flags will be required for example.  
 
 
Since when is liability a limiting factor in getting people to volunteer for match director duties? Shooters don't want to work, they want someone else to do all the work for them.  And Empty Chamber Flags? No one I know owns these things. Do you disqualify a shooter before he even fires a shot because he doesn't have one? Not exactly a new, friendly organization. I guess the match director will now have to purchase these items as well and sell them to the shooters.  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
 
For Standard .22 categories we are looking into limiting ammo to high velocity only and other ways to encourage promo ammo for keeping the costs as low as possible.  
 
 
Foreign ammo manufacturers make High Velocity ammo that is just as expensive as the standard stuff...ever hear of Eley Tenex Fast? What's to keep a shooter from dumping the crap ammo from the factory boxes and refilling it with match ammo? Oh yeah, I know, no shooters in this game will ever be looking for an edge in any of your rules. Right, I forgot, the lowly match director must memorize by sight ALL the ammo manufacturers products to determine which ones conform to "promo ammo" specs.  Now I have to check the headstamps of each rimfire round to determine acceptability.  Of course, a Super-X headstamp can be the same on high velocity ammo and match subsonic ammo. Do I need to purchase a chronograph to check all ammo now?  
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
For the center fire short course (out to 100 yards) only standard handgun cartridges will be allowed of a minimum caliber, either .30 or .35 yet to be decided.  
 
 
Will handloaded ammo be allowed in this game, or only factory ammo?  
 
 
Quote from: akihmsa
 
The goal is to attract shooters that the current associations are not attracting.  We doubt that many who are set up for the current games are going to want to downgrade equipment in order to play this simpler version of silhouette.
 
 
Simpler game? ....hardly!

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« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2004, 02:55:10 PM »
GZ you silly fellow  :D

There is room in the sport for both ideas  :wink:   Just because you are not interested in a budget gun area of the shooting sports doesn't mean that others are not.  Now of course you can't go up to a budget shooter and ridicule his equipment and expect him to like that much.  But if you want a larger amount of shooters in the game the way to do that is to open it up to more ideas.   I am all for the 1/5 and 1/2 scale games and the ray guns that go with them.  It is not for me but I see the interest and therefore think it is a good idea.

I am aware that there are lots of people out in the world that can afford high dollar equipment.  I just have not seen you attract them in large numbers.  Go get em Jim, and bring em in by the thousands!  We need them badly.  You are letting them shoot Trap and Skeet instead of getting them involved in our game.  Go set them straight!  Let me go get the other end of the spectrim, and be nice and don't call them low lifes or food stampers that just won't be a good way to keep them interested.  

You have stated that the motivated shooters will find a way to participate.  Well considering our numbers of active shooters at somewhere under 1000, maybe there just are not many motivated shooters in the world?

What I understand is that the competition with anything always boils down to the person.  The competition between FA shooters is exactly the same as it would be if they were using Rugers for example.  The scores would be higher with the FA's by a few points but the competiton would be the same.  Competition is about problem solving.  Lower cost equipment means you have to solve different problems thats all.  Many of the shooting sports have been very good about raising the cost of the competition while doing little to raise the level of the competition.  There is more competition to be found if the base is 10000 instead of 1000.  

Looking to archery you will find everything from bare bow longbow competition with cedar shaft arrows to the carbon fiber compound bows with sights counter balances, shooting carbon fiber arrows.  The competition is the same given like equipment.  However if you make the bare longbow shooter go head to head with the compounds he will not do well on average.  Replace longbow with Ruger and compound with Calfee XP and you get the picture.  Archery can have both areas covered and so could we if we really wanted to grow.  I don't care what people shoot, as long as it is a real competition.  

If there isn't room for both types of shooters in the IHMSA just let me know.  also if the shoot offs are all that matters at the Big matches then why not just do away with the regular portion and go straight to the shootoffs.  (Actually someone proposed this for UAS last year !)  

Quote from: Gun Zorro
Kelly, Please contact me for your first Alaskan Silhouette Shooter's Trailer Park Championship (ASS TP Championship).
I am sure you don't realize how you come across in your sales pitch. You constantly seem condescending and biased toward who you want in the game! It's not like there aren't plenty of people in the world with money enough to buy guns, even expensive ones. It couldn't be more clear that you have a sign saying: "We don't want no super-acheivers with their high dollar rigs". Compared to many hobbies, this is a bargain, even if you buy a $1000-$2000 gun every year or two, and keep trading up using your old stuff toward the newer. It is not as though you are REQUIRED to buy a new gun every year! Members have complete freedom of choice to upgrade or not. I've never seen it be a real problem for the vast majority of dedicated shooters, silhouette of otherwise.
It's like you are the Preacher of Poverty, wanting to take away the temptation to up-grade or excel.
Compared to the costs of ammo, club entries and of travel to several champinships a year, the cost a reliable accurate gun that won't be spending a lot of time in the gunsafe starts to look pretty reasonable. I just don't think you take these costs into consideration, since you don't have this type of involvement.  That's fine, just don't try to build a sport around your scaled-down expectations.
Even if someone makes a good living, they have to take quite a bit of time off to get good at this or any other sport.
Now, if you are talking about a young family man who has to make the choice between baby food and .22 ammo, that's a problem, and only time will help with that.
My buddy Scott Mann comes to mind. He has a terrific wife and two small boys. He's no millionaire. Yet he still finds ways to work a little overtime or do some side work to afford going to two or three matches a month and hit the big championships. His wife is supportive and he has a fire in him and finds a way around obstacles that would stop less motivated people.
You might as well put in your rules that the spouses must support the shooter. Motivated shooters will find a way to participate.
The sport has a wide range of people from all walks of life and income levels. That's one of the things I enjoy. I can rub elbows with millionaires that are completely down to earth, or humbler people just getting by and trying to enjoy a little relaxation. The incredible lack of pretense is what I love about almost all silhouette shooters.
But if you appeal to strictly the lowest common denominator, that's what you'll get, unless some rabble rousers like Steve or I get involved. I don't think anyone will cotton to the idea of being being stigmatized as not having enough money or skill to allow moving up to better equipment.
(Maybe the 4 classes should be: Middle, Lower Middle, Low and Food Stamp)
Once again I'll admit to being shameless in my aspirations: I want to hit the smallest possible target, at the furthest possible distance, against the greatest competition, each and every time I pull the trigger. Nothing else will satisfy me. If your Ruger GP100 will do this, I'm on board. So far, I must say I have found it completely lacking in the long range accuracy department. (I seldom realize my aspirations, that's why I strive for them! But I keep pluggin along without too much sour grapes.)
Regarding shoot-offs: As Steve said, that is where the game begins for the top shooters. Everything else is a prelude to the excitement of hitting extremely difficult targets under public scrutiny. The matches I attend NEVER have two winners! The shoot-off is always conducted until one clear winner emerges, whether that takes 5 shots or 50.
Not everyone will become an "elite" marksman. But that doesn't mean they don't try to improve themselves or appreciate the skills and efforts of the top shooters. I enjoy meeting the Top Dogs when I get the chance.
The more you pontificate your views, the more it seems that you have a real ax to grind with "elite" shooters and have been isolated from real competition and the excitement of buying new guns. Jim