Idaho family sues forest service after dead tree falls on son at campsite.

[powderman]

         Idaho family sues Forest Service for $1M after tree hits son  Published April 11, 2013
Associated Press   BOISE, Idaho –  An Idaho family has sued the U.S. Forest Service demanding more than $1 million after a large dead tree at a remote campsite fell and injured their young son.
Richard and Melinda Armstrong, of Caldwell, said their family was camping in the Boise National Forest in September 2010 when a gust of wind blew over the dead tree. It fell on their son, resulting in a large laceration, a compound fracture and a puncture wound in his back that impaired his breathing.
 
The boy, who was 6 at the time, was taken by helicopter to a hospital in Boise.
The couple said the Forest Service was negligent because it didn't remove the tree, which was a hazard. They're suing for more than $1 million in damages and emotional stress in federal court.
 
"The tree was clearly dead — had been dead for years — and was within eight feet of the fire ring, and within 48 feet of the Forest Service road," said Eric Rossman, their attorney in Boise, on Wednesday. "It was an obvious hazard."
Rossman said the Armstrong's son has undergone multiple surgeries and suffered "severe permanent impairment" of his leg.
 
David Olson, spokesman for the Boise National Forest, cited agency policy that prevents comment on pending litigation.
At issue is whether the federal agency had a responsibility to ensure that a site where people frequented and was near a public road was adequately protected from a potentially dangerous tree.
 
There have been similar lawsuits elsewhere, including an Oregon man who sued the Forest Service in 2010 after he was struck and injured by a tree while driving in his truck. That case was settled earlier this year and has been dismissed.
The Armstrongs' camping trip took them about 50 miles north of Boise, to a remote Forest Service road east of the hamlet of Ola in Gem County. They contend the place along Squaw Creek where they were overnighting was, in fact, a developed campsite, according to the Forest Service's definition.
 
But even if the campsite was not considered to be developed, according to their complaint, the improvements there, including a fire ring made of rocks, and the Forest Service's knowledge that it was a place where people camped regularly created a duty for the agency "to take immediate measures to inspect and remove the tree, close the site and/or warn user at the site of the serious risk of injury, death or property damage."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/11/idaho-family-sues-usfs-for-1m-after-tree-hit-son/?intcmp=HPBucket#ixzz2Q9xsqtyi

[lakota]

the woods aren't as safe as the ball pit at Chuck E Cheese's. Stay out of the woods if you don't want to risk having trees or tree limbs fall on you. It happens. I hope this frivolous suit is dismissed quickly.

[SHOOTALL]

When just a lad my uncle took me for a walk to the river to wet a line . On the way we passed several dead trees . My uncle pointed to one and said you know what they call a tree like that ? Then he said a widow maker. Then explained . Then said never get near one or under one or under a tree with a dead limb.
 These people must have no uncle .

[Dixie Dude]

We went to the nearby big lake with my boat one year and took my wife's neice from New York City.  In her 20's.  We anchored in a slue and went swimming.  Fish were in the water, (a school of bream).  One or two brushed by her legs.  She asked what that was, and we said fish.  She got out of the water and stayed on the boat the rest of the afternoon.  She came over and my wife was laying new sod in the yard and she helped a little.  She was freeked out by insects, ants, etc.  She thought everything was weird that we had to take a car to go anywhere.  She always used the subway, taxi, or city bus.  She is now about 30 and is a lawyer (for social justice), and still doesn't have a car. 

[vabeachman]

Unbelievable.  I feel sorry for them, but every time you roll out of bed there is risk involved.  No risk, no freedom.  Maybe they should just go camping in a solidary confinement cell in a jail if they think there is no risk in life.

[buffermop]

every tree has its nuts!!

[Dixie Dude]

This neice is weird.  She does not like to go barefooted in the grass.  Never spent much time outside.  She would probably freek out at all the sounds of night, cicadas, frogs, etc.  Most soothing sound and helps me sleep.  Mornings bring the birds singing.  Another beautiful sound the morning brings.  Life is good in the woods.  Just takes common sense to avoid things like poisinous snakes, bears, wolfs, dead trees, slippery rocks, rabid animals, etc.  Love the smell of the forest also.  No lawyers needed.
 
Oh, well, city dwellers have traffic, car horns, jackhammers, loud mufflers, people talking, the smell of car exaust, or a broken sewer main.  To each his own.

[guzzijohn]

Some folk are country folk and some are city folk. Both know their own environment better than the other. One of my wife's best friends from her college days is a "city" girl. She has lived most of her adult life in Kansas City and is moving to NY city and is very exited about it. When she came out to our rural place she just didn't understand the attraction or why one would like to live like us but then again I would have the same feeling in NY City.
GuzziJohn

[Ranger99]

this kind of bulls*** is why america is
going down the toilet. hopefully, this
suit will be quickly dismissed and these
folks will have to pay costs of court and
attorneys fees and do community service
for the forest service.


there are no guarantees in life.
a jumbo jet may fall out of the sky at
any second of any day. a bus (like happened today)
can roll over and kill you. a group of
jumpy cops looking for a murdering renegade
cop can shoot you. anything at any second
regardless of where you're standing.


if a large asteroid falls from space, and kills
someones family members, who would
the lawsuit happy yo-yo's sue?

[powderman]

the woods aren't as safe as the ball pit at Chuck E Cheese's. Stay out of the woods if you don't want to risk having trees or tree limbs fall on you. It happens. I hope this frivolous suit is dismissed quickly.

 
LAKOTA. WEll said Sir. Something not quite right with the whole story. Being they were city folks I'd think that if the wind was strong enough to topple even a dead tree that they would probably have left the area. Quite possible they were trying to push it over, or climbing it, I know we did when we were kids. Who knows?? POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

So with their knowledge of the out doors what would have happened if a bear drifted into camp ? not pretty .

[DDZ]

It still would have been the forest service fault for not having signs posted everywhere stating "beware of da bears"
So I figure there will now be a bunch of signs going up in the national forests saying "beware of falling trees". Just like all the stupid warning labels on products that we buy. Like on a curling iron, "for external use only". Or on a hair dryer, "do not use in the shower". Or on a lawn mower, "Do not stick hands under mower while running" Or on a baby stroller, "remove infant before folding for storage".  These labels are for the manufactures protection from law suits, and we do pay for all those stupid labels, because there are stupid people, and people that will do anything for free money.   

[Ranger99]

the last big pack of fish hooks
i bought had a big bright yellow
label that had to be torn off to
open the package and said something
like "warning! fishhooks are extremely
sharp and inherently dangerous! keep
these away from eyes!"


it's a shame we have to try to idiot-proof
the world. on the way home i stopped at
the grocery store, and people were trying
to fall in some milk that had spilled.
it was obvious what they were trying to do.

[DDZ]

Ranger, add that to people that create rear end collisions so they can sue insurance companies.
What we need are judges to tell it like it is. Sorry, your lawsuit is being rejected because of your stupidity.   

[powderman]

on the way home i stopped at
the grocery store, and people were trying
to fall in some milk that had spilled.
it was obvious what they were trying to do.

 
When I worked at WM there was a couple who were regulars. She always rode in an electric cart, he was blind and followed her holding on to the back and walking alongside. One  day a customer had dropped a 2 liter coke that busted. I went to get a mop and caution sign. As I came back I noticed that she had parked a few ft away from it and was telling him to go forward, I hollered for him to stop, she said, go on to him. I hurried over and took his arm to stop him from getting hurt. She was livid. I found out that the store had settled out of court in various slips and falls, other stores too. POWDERMAN. 

[DDZ]

on the way home i stopped at
the grocery store, and people were trying
to fall in some milk that had spilled.
it was obvious what they were trying to do.

 
When I worked at WM there was a couple who were regulars. She always rode in an electric cart, he was blind and followed her holding on to the back and walking alongside. One  day a customer had dropped a 2 liter coke that busted. I went to get a mop and caution sign. As I came back I noticed that she had parked a few ft away from it and was telling him to go forward, I hollered for him to stop, she said, go on to him. I hurried over and took his arm to stop him from getting hurt. She was livid. I found out that the store had settled out of court in various slips and falls, other stores too. POWDERMAN. 

....and people wonder why products cost so much. These costs for lawsuits, and or thefts are transfered to we the consumer. 

[pastorp]

25 years ago when I was cutting wood in the Gila national forest to heat my home with. It was illegal to cut dead but still standing hardwoods. The forest servest protected it to provide den trees for birds & animals. 

I believe that rule might leave some responsibility to cut them if they become unsafe for the USFS.

Regards,

[m-g Willy]

Shut down all the national forsets and city parks also!
Tell people that it is a wilderness area and enter at your own risk.
No need for camp sites,, or paved roads into the woods.
If'n you can't walk in on your own,,, you don't need to be there!
Then we wouldn't be seeing all these tree hugging idiots in the deep woods.
And they could put their trailor parks- AKA camp grounds- in wal-mart parking lots.
 

[Victor3]

 I can't remember the exact number, but while researching how many trees are killed by bark beetles a few years back, I recall reading that the total falling dead trees on US National Forest land numbered in the 10's of 1000's per day. They can't be expected to even keep up with the small percentage that fall onto roads, power lines, etc. on a daily basis. It would be impossible, even if they were fully funded to do so.


 That said, if I have to pay a Ranger at the gate to camp at an established US Forest Service campground, I expect the trees to be reasonably maintained for safety. If it's just a minimalist campground within the NF I can camp for free at, I don't expect anything.

[Oldshooter]

We live in a litigious society fellas, You would think that the family would be happy the child was alive and only injured. People find it funny that landowners are not falling over backward to let em onto their place to hunt and camp.

[SHOOTALL]

the last big pack of fish hooks
i bought had a big bright yellow
label that had to be torn off to
open the package and said something
like "warning! fishhooks are extremely
sharp and inherently dangerous! keep
these away from eyes!"


it's a shame we have to try to idiot-proof
the world. on the way home i stopped at
the grocery store, and people were trying
to fall in some milk that had spilled.
it was obvious what they were trying to do.

Hummmmm maybe that's why the gene pool is getting polluted

[powderman]

And they could put their trailor parks- AKA camp grounds- in wal-mart parking lots.
 

 
HEH. It always gives me a chuckle to hear folks taking off in their RV and say they're going camping, but I reckon to city folk it is. POWDERMAN. 

[dakotashooter2]

Dead does not mean dangerous. I know of a few dead trees that have been that way for 20+ years and are still pretty solid.... Perfectly healthy trees have been known to blow down in a windstorm.......... Can't watch them all......Their complain is that it was in a designated camping area......... It's a forest...NOT a motel..................

[SHOOTALL]

I hate to mention this as it might cause all national forest to be clear cut .  But years ago We were camping on Hatteras Island and a very big storm came up. As many as 12 tornados were spotted. We set the tent up several time then gave up and got in the Blazer which was rocking like a boat. Well when things settled down my wife stepped out and tripped over a pine tree that fell right beside the truck. It was about 12 inches or so in dia. I'm sure it would have caved the roof in. It was a live tree all it did was hit the side mirror, yea that close. . Stuff happens . It doesn't have to be a dead tree.

[DDZ]

Dead does not mean dangerous. I know of a few dead trees that have been that way for 20+ years and are still pretty solid.... Perfectly healthy trees have been known to blow down in a windstorm.......... Can't watch them all......Their complain is that it was in a designated camping area......... It's a forest...NOT a motel..................

Thats just it. Any tree can fall, it doesn't have to be dead, and trying to blame the forest service for this is just looking to blame someone else for something bad that happened. The problem with our society anymore, is everybody is always looking to blame someone or something, instead of taking personal responsibility upon themselves. Its like the drug addict that blames the drugs for their stupid actions. Or people blaming a tire company because there under inflated tire blew out traveling 80 mph. Our society just has an issue with personal responsibility anymore, and the same could be said in this case. A forest is kind of a dangerous place to be when there are high winds. Dead trees or no dead trees. Maybe they should have noted how windy it was, and the fact they were camping beside a dead tree. Its unfortunate that this happened, but people have to use some common sense once in a while, especially when camping in high winds. I guess if their blame of the forest service doesn't work out for them, there is always the bark beetles or gypsy moths to blame.   
I know when I'm hunting and its a windy day, I make sure I don't park my butt near any suspect tree that may fall, and I'm sure most of you guys do the same.       

[magooch]

You can bet that if a private campground allowed what could be deemed a recognizable hazard exist and it were to cause injury, the private outfit would be made to pay.


Victor 3, your comments struck me as quite reasonable.  Others can disagree, but I guess that is why there are lawyers and courts.


On a slightly different tack, I recently spotted several trees along a state highway that had been chewed on by a beaver.  At least two of these trees will most likely fall on the highway in time.  I contacted the local transportation department authority and notified them of what I found.  I was told by the person in charge that they would take a look.  Two weeks later I checked and nothing had been done.  I decided to go to the state level and see if some action could be started.  Well, that stirred up a hornets nest and I got a call from the local guy who at first wanted to put me off, but then wanted me to point out the exact trees that were a concern.  I met with the guy at the site and pointed to the trees that anyone with eyes could and should have seen.  He changed his tune and declared those trees have to come down. 


Fine, but nothing is that simple; they had to formulate a plan of action which is sort of reasonable, but it misses the urgency of getting rid of an imminent hazard that could conceivably lead to injury or even death at any minute.  One tree especially is so far chewed into, it is a wonder that it is still standing.  My point here is that any tree faller could take these trees down in a matter of five minutes.
But as I said, nothing is that simple.  There are environmental concerns and other agencies that have to be notified


The bottom line is that next Tuesday, the highway will be shut down and three trees will be removed by the highway department.  A utility agency will also be there to possibly remove some trees, or branches that might "impact" their lines.  I'm told that this will take two days.  Not to take issue with much of this, but if I were in charge, the most immediate hazard would have been eliminated in a matter of minutes if I had to do it myself.  So what's the problem?  The trees could easily be felled in the opposite direction of the highway, but there is a river there and the fish and game department will not allow the trees to be dropped in the river.  This is very interesting, because beavers don't have to get permission to do exactly that and it happens all the time.


There's more to this story, but that might be for another time.  I'm still dealing with the state on some further problems with this stretch of road and the trees that are a standing hazard.  I've gotten some state reps and a senator involved and possibly the governor.

[FPH]

Interesting, my favorite campground in the Wolf Creek area was closed because the NFS did not want to maintain the site after a mall ( and I mean small) flood which damaged some trees and brush.

[powderman]

MAGOOCH. HEH, what a story and a prime example of what liberals contribute to society, NOTHING but hassle.
A few years ago a new subdivision was built but they fergot to tell the coyotes to move our. City folk moved in with their cats and yuppie puppys and the coyotes feasted. A woman petitioned the State telling them they should feed their coyotes better so they wouldn't be eating her pets. Thank a liberal today. POWDERMAN. 

[jpshaw]

I'm sorry for their loss but you enter the woods, ocean, swamp, marsh etc. at your own risk.  Quit trying to charge the American Taxpayer for the the consequences of your own choices.

[FPH]

Part of my problem was caused by the NFS it's own self.  They won't allow a private citizen to take a chainsaw to a falling tree in their campgrounds.  I was willing to clean up the campground I favored.......but NOOOOOO.