Inequality in America - How we arrived where we are / whats your opinion?

[mcwoodduck]

Empty Quiver.
The problem is the Left has to knock the top down. 
They are the reason we grade on a curve.  If only one person gets a 100 on the test and vereyone else gets a 60 then they mod does nto want a D as a grade so they have to get rid of the one kid that got a 100.
Now you can grade on a curve, and everyone that did not work hard are now getting an A.  But they feel =good about getting the A they did not earn. 
At some point the kid that strudied will then stop knowing that a 60 will get him an A. 
Instead of striving for the right side of the bell curve they are happy to be in the middle and work on the curve. 

[45-70.gov]

more class warfare,crybabies

[DDZ]

Isn't the American dream about hard work, and self reliance, not handouts and dependence? Isn't it about equal opportunity, and not equal results. I think the fuss about inequality is driven more by envy than compassion.

The article explains this very well. Progressives will not agree with it because their idea is that governments roll is to make everyone equal, which is impossible within a free society, and with economic freedom. Inequality is just part of the basic principles America was founded on. Which is equal opportunity, but not equal riches.   

I disagree with the idea that making it by using your back and hard work is a thing of the past. Someone very close to me had a high school education. Went to college on a baseball scholarship, and flunked out his first year. He got a job working heavy construction building bridges, and through perseverance, the will work hard, and bust his butt, he is making over 100K a year, in just five years in the business. This money he makes is not from someone that gives it to him for just being there. The kid busts his butt every day, and its an example that you can still use your back and make good money. The idea that there is not any work for the unskilled, because machines do it all now, is pure BS.
   Just the other day I was talking to a coworker, and he was telling me how he could not find anyone to re-roof his house. He got a couple of bids, but the contractors said it would be not until July or August that they could do it. Why is this? You hear how so many people are out of work. Why are there not people getting into the roofing trade? It doesn't take a lot of skill to re shingle a house, but it does take a lot of hard work, and that is something to many people shy away from today. I learned roofing, by reading a book and helping someone that knew how to do it, so I wouldn't have to pay someone to do my own roof. The point is, there are still lots of jobs available that don't require a high skill set, but do require hard work, and thats just something many don't want to do anymore. Its just so much easier to collect a welfare, or unemployment check, and whine about how unfare the world is.       
 People in this country have become soft, spoiled, and expect to much for nothing. They expect other people to give them their riches, through a government, that by doing so removes freedom.       

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/09/defending-the-dream-why-income-inequality-does-not-threaten-opportunity

[Dresden]

"Everything in life seems to even itself  out, take Ice for example, the Rich get theirs in the Summer, the poor get theirs in the Winter"
Bat Masterson


Considering when he lived when he made this comment, we can see how much has changed now can't we

[magooch]

There is one element that has hurt American workers that I don't think has been mentioned and that is illegals.  It used to be that an able bodied person could always find some kind of manual labor job that paid well enough to get started--like roofing, or common labor construction.  With countless millions of illegals working in so many of these jobs, that is a big part of the problem.  American women used to be able to find work in the hospitality sector as maids and such.  Now days there's an awful lot of maids that don't speak English.


The fact is that illegals are pretty good workers and employers are always looking for hard workers, but that doesn't make it right.  Stop the illegal invaders, get rid of the ones that are here and that will be a start. 


Another thing that is going to have to happen is to work towards "fair trade" in place of unrestricted free trade.  The fact is that universal fair trade will never be possible, but when it gets totally lopsided as is the case with the USA and China, there's got to be some diligent effort to do some equalizing for the long term benefit of all.


Overall, when I look back at our general condition, the state of our relative prosperity isn't all that bad--yet.  Personally, my lifestyle is so much better than anything I could have imagined 50 years ago--I have to pinch myself.  The people who were considered very well off in those days had lifestyles that were comparatively quite modest in many respects. 


My greatest concern these days is that our out of control, spendaholic government is going to inflate us all into poverty.

[magooch]

I should have mentioned that one huge factor has been the difficulty for employers to find young able workers who haven't acquired some kind of substance abuse problem.  This is why illegals are often hired and all too many Americans get left behind.  It's their own damned fault.  Ask any employer what the biggest problem is; it's finding good employees that consistently show up for work and do a good job.

[DDZ]

I should have mentioned that one huge factor has been the difficulty for employers to find young able workers who haven't acquired some kind of substance abuse problem.  This is why illegals are often hired and all too many Americans get left behind.  It's their own damned fault.  Ask any employer what the biggest problem is; it's finding good employees that consistently show up for work and do a good job.

Thats exactly right! It all comes down to the will, and desire to want a job, then when one is achieved, the will and desire to do the best job you possibly can. Employers are having trouble finding these type of people anymore. You first have to make yourself fit for work and the type of work you are going to be doing. Someone that is obese or way over weight is not going to make it in a job that requires physical labor. There are physical labor jobs out there, and some of them pay very well, but you can't be a drug addict, drunk or an obese person and expect to get any kind of work for that matter.
If someone wants a job, they can find one. They might have to quit the drugs, boozing, and stuffing themselves with donuts, and Big Macs, to make themselves fit for work.

Our government has made it to easy to just bitch about inequality, and how unfair things are, instead of making yourself fit so you can get a job. Why get a job, when tax payers will take care of you? Then we can blame rich people for having to much money, and not paying their fair share. If there are people that think they are not making enough money, get off your butt and go do something about it. Instead of bitching about others having to much.           

[351 power]

the rugged individualism of pulling ones self up by their bootstraps provides the romantic notion that the feudal powers of todays' economy continue to exploit. trickle down economy served to placate the few who want explanation. the reality of class distinction, hearkening back to royal servitude is alive and well as the ever widening gap in the concentration of wealth forces the decline of the possibility that your children and grand children will have even an equal standard of living to yourselves

[45-70.gov]

this pretty well  explains  ''victimhood''
those  poor  poor  people
Anti–gun groups love victims!
From my observations, pro–victimhood is a feature of all of the anti–gun special interest groups, not just the ones mentioned here. Every organization that supports gun control apparently wants its members to be helpless, terrified and totally dependent on someone else to control every aspect of their lives. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a religious, racial, ethnic, political, social, or charitable group. From Handgun Control, Inc. to the Anti–Defamation League to the Million Mom March, they all want you to live in fear. In this scheme, soccer moms are "victims" just as much as are inner–city minorities.
If these organizations truly cared about the people for whom they claim to speak, they would encourage safe and responsible firearms ownership. They would help people to learn how to defend themselves and their families so that they wouldn’t have to live in fear. They would tell everyone that one of the wonderful things about being an American is that you have the right to keep and bear arms, the right to defend yourself, and how these rights preserve the right to be free.
The psychological price of being a victim
[/size]In our current society, victimhood has many perceived benefits, but there are some serious drawbacks. Victims tend to see the world as a scary and threatening place. They believe that others treat them differently, unfairly, and even maliciously — and that they are helpless to do anything about it. This belief, that they are being mistreated and are helpless to resist, generates tremendous rage, and often, serious depression.
[/size]But for victims to show rage openly can be dangerous, if not outright suicidal. For example, a battered woman who screams at or hits her attacker may provoke worse beatings or even her own murder. And a person who successfully defends himself loses his status as "victim." For someone whose entire identity is dependent on being a victim, the loss of victim status is just as threatening as loss of life.
[/size]So, unable psychologically to cope with such rage, people who view themselves as victims:
[1] use defense mechanisms to displace it into irrational beliefs about neighbors killing each other, and the infallibility of police protection, and –
[2] attempt to regain control by controlling gun owners, whom they wrongly perceive as "the enemy".

[/size]

[ironglow]

Your "economists' make the usual Keynesian mistakes, thinking more government is the answer to every problem.  Unfortunately, and as a sensible look at history tells us..the more government messes with things, the worse they get.  We saw that in the old soviet Union and it's "central planning"... exactly what the Obamanists are trying to institute.
 

If your supporting the premise Supply side economics have proven out then I absolutely disagree and so does the historical empirical data the graphs depict.

The supply side trickle down experiment ( general tax cuts and deregulation) has failed miserably. I would suggest that it was one of the initial catalysts that placed our economy on the path towards the recession we are just now beginning to rebound from (WHICH BY THE WAY IS ONLY BEING DONE BY US GOVT SUBSIDIZING US BANKING INSTITUTIONS TO KEEP INTEREST RATES LOW).

 Trickle down economics is one of the major causality contributors for our present days rapidly expanding income disparity gap we are discussing on this thread. That's not opinion , that's fact.

IE:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  Not quite accurate Scoot;
         I'm talking "free market"...while you're talking Obamian  "central planning"..as was done in the old Soviet Union, today's Cuba and North Korea..  How is that working for you lately?

[45-70.gov]

some times i think the democrats have operatives  here


helping to create  class warfare

[mcwoodduck]

some times i think the democrats have operatives  here


helping to create  class warfare

I wish you were correct.
Years ago when an apartment building was built, workers used to take pride in seeing the building they labored to build and used it as a resume inhancer,
Today these same workers now think they should be collecting a portion of the rents and are angry that they someone is makeing money on their labors that someone paid them for. 

[magooch]

the rugged individualism of pulling ones self up by their bootstraps provides the romantic notion that the feudal powers of todays' economy continue to exploit. trickle down economy served to placate the few who want explanation. the reality of class distinction, hearkening back to royal servitude is alive and well as the ever widening gap in the concentration of wealth forces the decline of the possibility that your children and grand children will have even an equal standard of living to yourselves

This goes right along with the goofy theory that if someone does real well, it hinders someone else from doing well.  The idea that there is only one pie and if someone gets too big a bite they're stealing what rightfully is someone else's share.  If you want a piece of the pie, bake your own.  There is an infinite number of potential pies to be baked, but you'll not get it done by griping about those who are busy baking.

[45-70.gov]

when  i was raising  kids


i held up rich people as role models for them


they ALL  grew  up well

[ChungDoQuan]

How many of your kids are rich? Germany, France, Japan and Scandinavia, are all countries with far less income equality than the US. They are also the countries with the highest quality of life for their average citizens.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/research/articles/2009/11/11/income-inequality-affects-quality-of-life-for-all

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/income-inequality-drives-40000-excess-hospital-admissions/2013-02-15

[Empty Quiver]

How many of your kids are rich? Germany, France, Japan and Scandinavia, are all countries with far less income equality than the US. They are also the countries with the highest quality of life for their average citizens.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/research/articles/2009/11/11/income-inequality-affects-quality-of-life-for-all

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/income-inequality-drives-40000-excess-hospital-admissions/2013-02-15

Are you advocating to increase the low income folks or reduce the high income folks?


How would an income cap look to all of the progressives out there? We have a minimum wage how about a maximum wage? I mean so many folks have too much money lets simply outlaw an income over 200k. That way we would have plenty of cash simply sloshing around the economy the poor would be able to sweep it up.


Imagine, Donald Trump works 15 minutes a month. Well that would quickly remove a thousand poverty stricken from the streets simply filling in for the Don. We could certainly reduce the IRS by a huge amount, all those evil rich would have no loop holes to squeeze through. Okay obviously the Don won't be working 15 minutes a month and letting somebody take over for him. So now those thousand that it would take to fill in at 200k per 15 minutes would still be poor. But the Dons tax burden would still be on a dismal 200k. Most likely the Don would have to fire a vast staff, he would be getting rid of a lot of cars apartments houses all sorts of things. The market would be flooded with super valuable properties, prices would drop and the Jeffersons could move on up, to a deeluxe apartment in the sky!


How about we just decriminalize holdups? Just let the poor rob the rich. If we eliminate the middle man the entire proceeds go to the poor. Maybe we could eventually respect our politicians if we knew they were no longer robbing us. We can start by taking away all of the guns from the rich and giving them to the poor. We've already started?

[scootrd]

How many of your kids are rich? Germany, France, Japan and Scandinavia, are all countries with far less income equality than the US. They are also the countries with the highest quality of life for their average citizens.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/research/articles/2009/11/11/income-inequality-affects-quality-of-life-for-all

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/income-inequality-drives-40000-excess-hospital-admissions/2013-02-15

Are you advocating to increase the low income folks or reduce the high income folks?

For starters I'd be happy just advocating for a level playing field  through True Tax reform, revocation of Citizens United, common sense wall street regulation, elimination of too big to fail policies, and a livable minimum wage.

[mcwoodduck]

How many of your kids are rich? Germany, France, Japan and Scandinavia, are all countries with far less income equality than the US. They are also the countries with the highest quality of life for their average citizens.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/research/articles/2009/11/11/income-inequality-affects-quality-of-life-for-all

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/income-inequality-drives-40000-excess-hospital-admissions/2013-02-15

Are you advocating to increase the low income folks or reduce the high income folks?

For starters I'd be happy just advocating for a level playing field  through True Tax reform, revocation of Citizens United, common sense wall street regulation, elimination of too big to fail policies, and a livable minimum wage.

Three things.
1) livable minimum wage?  Why do you think there should be a minimum wage?  Minwage jobs are entry level jobs.  The whole idea of entry level jobs is to advance, and grow and a person that contributes more to society and to the company they work for.  Having a livable minimum wage stunts that.  If you can live off of an entry level job then what is your motivation to grow, what is your motivations to become more profitable for both you and the company?   
Entry level jobs are just that.  Get some experience, learn a work ethic, and move on or UP.  Entry level jobs are there to gain experience and not to make a carreer out of flipping burgers and dunking fries and raising a family on it.
2) I agree with the too big to fail, except in this past bail outs the problems were caused by rules and regulations by government.  So it was only right for the government to bail out the companies they screwed up with over reaching taxes, regulations and laws.
3) Yes we need to eliminate the safety net mentality of wall street, as long as people think Government will protect them you will have Madoff's and others that will scam the system and the people. Clearly people will care about what happens in the market and in the firm they invested money. 
 

[ironglow]

  Government only makes a fool of itself when it tries to enforce "equality". The root word for equality is obviously equal..  Let's be honest about it..people are not equal and they cannot be forced to be equal.
  People are not born equal. they do not have equal IQs, some grow up to be very strong, some are very fast, others are poor athletes.  Their homes are not equal..some parents train their children..some neglect them..some few even abuse them.
   Some like to work and do plenty of it...others would rather sit on the porch..
 
  The most interference a government could/should do is to help assure folks that they will have an  equal opportunity !!

[Empty Quiver]

Scootrd.....see what I mean?....You're not going to get posters on this board to get concerned about equality, economic or otherwise., or just society, fairness, and other equalitarian thoughts....its not in their scope of vision.  Just not in their psyche to care about this stuff being comfortable enough in their niche and they're not going to rock the boat...Imagine if the Founders had such an atttitude.! In fact, most here belong to the I-got-mine-Jack school of life and are dyed in the wool Social Darwinist...everything is just fine, except for Halfrican BHO in charge (allegedly) and a bunch of pesky moosilimbs.  Worship of wealth and banksterism is their common steed.  In fact, in America in the top 5% there has been no recession...NO RECESSION whatsoever, thats why things are as they are.....they're doing beautifully and they're not changing a durn thing unless its change for more agrandizement and wealth consolidation for them....and which they have the rank and file signed on.  So don't expect any changes in economic America until things get much worse.  Its a zeitgeist problem...like mass hypnosis or mass Stockholm Syndrome.
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
EQ,,,,,,just to jumpstart the American economy...I propose giving everybody in the top 2%,,,those so-called Atlas Shrugged producers, $10 million dollars for the next 10 years....that should do it... ..  Whatyathink..??
.
..TM7

Why not 200K? What makes one think they can dictate someones income?


Your damn skippy correct in that I am not interested in equality. I for one am not the equal of anyone. There are plenty I would be offended to be compared to and many I am not the equal of. Here is the thing, I am not afraid to admit it.

This country from the get go was designed to offer a chance to rise to the top by your own efforts. Once there you should not worry about your wealth being confiscated for use by those who have not. This country has been different by design from the start.

The founders had the pursuit of happiness / wealth part written for a good reason. Over the next couple of centuries much effort has been expended trying to get rid of the pursuit part and replace it with redistribution.

There are plenty of opportunities the world over to be held to equality. Here though has been the opportunity to rise up to your full potential. That potential includes the ability to throw off ones obstacles. The world did not give a good crap about Bill Gates and his ideas, until he poked them in the eye and made them notice. His potential was more than a good idea for computing.

There are lots of pretty women. Only one is on the cover of Sports Illustrated this month, seems there is more to it than just beauty. As there is more to success in America than simply showing up at work.   

[DDZ]

The idea of economic equality is nothing but one of the arms of socialism . People claim "Oh I'm all for freedom, but then complain that there is inequality. Inequality breeds the idea that the centralized state needs to level the playing field instead of letting the free market work. They want government intervention for their idea of fairness. People that think inequality is bad, can't stand the fact that some people are smarter, work harder, and make more money than others. They have a need to have something, or someone level the playing field, and call it fairness.
Its the same idea with unions. Unions carry a socialistic idea in that everyone makes the same, based on a classification. It doesn't matter how hard you work or how smart you are, you are going to get the same as the  lazy guy working beside you.
So why don't some of you guys that think equality is something we need, just come out and say you want socialism, because thats exactly what you are arguing for.   

[Victor3]

  Government only makes a fool of itself when it tries to enforce "equality". The root word for equality is obviously equal..  Let's be honest about it..people are not equal and they cannot be forced to be equal.
  People are not born equal. they do not have equal IQs, some grow up to be very strong, some are very fast, others are poor athletes.  Their homes are not equal..some parents train their children..some neglect them..some few even abuse them.
   Some like to work and do plenty of it...others would rather sit on the porch..
 
  The most interference a government could/should do is to help assure folks that they will have an  equal opportunity !!

 Wait just a cotton-pickin' minute Sir.... Are you saying my Mom LIED to me? She told me I could be the POTUS if I wanted!


 (Never mind. Seeing what he, I don't want to be that dude) 

[scootrd]

No one is arguing there will always be different ladders of income. That is not the issue. The issue is the extreme acceleration of the ever widening gap.  The debate is what is the causality.  - financial policies? - regulation or deregulation?- fed labor laws?- decline of unions?- Tarp?- NAFTA?- Trade? - Taxation ? - computing? etc..etc..

Use to be no matter where you were on the economic ladder There was prosperity and growth which rose with productivity, and year to year improving middle class growth generation to generation. Not so anymore, middle class is in financial decline . Over the last few decades there has been significant declines in middle class class incomes , yet exceptional growth for top percentile.

Another way to  view this gap is from a wage productivity perspective. It use to be as Productivity increased American wages followed suit. What was the catalyst/causality in the 70's early 80's that decoupled productivity/wage that started us on this path of divergence that continues to widen at an accelerated growth income inequality .

While corporate productivity has increased Middle class income has remained stagnant or declined.

[Dee]

Inequality in America-How we arrived where we are/whats your opinion?

Well, you arrived on sailing ships, and immediately set out to confiscate property that wasn't yours. You poisoned, slaughtered, forced off of lands, penned up, reservation-ed peoples, moved them across the continent at gun point making them walk, while you rode (old people and children included), and treated them less than human. In fact, your elected presidents called them sub-human. Lincoln and Jackson, just to name a few.
Then when YOUR government was all set up like you think you wanted it, the industrialized north decided that the agricultural south was charging too much for it's cotton. When the south tried to peacefully with draw, your president declared war on American citizens, so you joined the government's army, and attacked and killed close to 1 million of them, and once again. Stole THIER STOLEN LAND, and called it right.
Then after WWI, and WWII, American presidents put into office by you, decided that other countries should be like US. Never mind that they didn't want to be like US. America knew what was best for them.
About this same time Senators, and Congressmen, decided that rather than convene a few times a year, that there was more money to be made by goin full time. YOU let them, thus the LOBBIST TRADE was born.
You voted them in, you fought their wars, and you JUSTIFIED their bad behavior, and lying heavy handedness, by repeatedly put them in charge. That's how you got to where you are in a condensed version. I'm sure I left out a lot, but I have a job, and am not an author of books.
NOW, these folks "that you never checked out personally", have run your business in the ground, and YOUR affected, not just someone else. They want YOUR money, YOUR guns, and YOUR property. Sucks! Don't it?
 

[magooch]

If the wealth gap is widening, it has nothing at all to do with what is happening to the middle class.  The wealthy are who creates the jobs for the middle class and the more the better.


The real attack on middle class income is government continually raising taxes of all kinds and government constantly driving the very businesses that the middle class depends on for employment out of this country with taxes, regulation and harassment.

[ChungDoQuan]

The decline of the rightys is evidence of their own Social Darwinism stance. The world changed; the right did not--- so they're dying off just like any other species that could not adapt.

[magooch]

What am I missing here?  Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Sorros, and on and on and on--are these guys the Rightys who are in decline?  I honestly don't get your point.  A communist gets elected and all of a sudden, people who believe in freedom and prosperity are supposedly in decline.  Get a grip.

[mcwoodduck]

No one is arguing there will always be different ladders of income. That is not the issue. The issue is the extreme acceleration of the ever widening gap.  The debate is what is the causality.  - financial policies? - regulation or deregulation?- fed labor laws?- decline of unions?- Tarp?- NAFTA?- Trade? - Taxation ? - computing? etc..etc..

Use to be no matter where you were on the economic ladder There was prosperity and growth which rose with productivity, and year to year improving middle class growth generation to generation. Not so anymore, middle class is in financial decline . Over the last few decades there has been significant declines in middle class class incomes , yet exceptional growth for top percentile.

Another way to  view this gap is from a wage productivity perspective. It use to be as Productivity increased American wages followed suit. What was the catalyst/causality in the 70's early 80's that decoupled productivity/wage that started us on this path of divergence that continues to widen at an accelerated growth income inequality .

While corporate productivity has increased Middle class income has remained stagnant or declined.

Gee look wages went up as Regan dropped the top margin al tax rate.
And it dropped as they have continued to raise income taxes.  And raised again as We had the bush tax cuts.
So it keeps showing that that everytoing we raise taxes incomes go lower or are flat. 
Productivity is easlily explained with the advent of computers and robotics.
Oh and we see that during the Clinton administration we actuall had a dip below the 1970 level.
We see that having a Conservitive in office we see a rise in wages.  Alos I am guessing that these are adjusted for inflation.   

[Empty Quiver]

What am I missing here?  Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Sorros, and on and on and on--are these guys the Rightys who are in decline?  I honestly don't get your point.  A communist gets elected and all of a sudden, people who believe in freedom and prosperity are supposedly in decline.  Get a grip.

Evidently it is. If you want to get ahead you need to limit freedom, or champion those that can. You need to be involved in limiting competition or champion those who can. When you have finally accumulated all the wealth imaginable, you then need to hamstring those with the tools to reduce your wealth and power dis arm them or champion those who are able to disarm them.


Make a list of those championing gun confiscation, make a list of those who are buying and consolidating businesses, and then make a list of the most wealthy individuals in America. Or simply make one of the above lists and save some time.

[DDZ]

The decline of the rightys is evidence of their own Social Darwinism stance. The world changed; the right did not--- so they're dying off just like any other species that could not adapt.

Is it the belief that if all the conservatives die off the leftists will obtain their utopia? Only problem I can see with that is, who will go to work to pay for everything.