308 or 30-06?

[Swampman]

And they work even better out of the ought 6.

[Casull]

Lots of people will claim the 308 runs right with an o6 for velocity but that to hasnt proven to be the case for me. Keep in mind that factory 308s are loaded to quite a bit higher pressures then factory o6 ammo and since there both used in the same guns theres no reason why a guy cant load 06 ammo to the same pressures. When you do this the 06 leaves the 308 in the dust. Say what you want but its just common sense. the 06 has a bigger case holds more powder and will push ANY bullet faster then a 308. Id say the differnce is much closer to 200 fps then 100fps. Its just as much more powerful then the 308 as the 300 win  mag is over the 06

 
 
 
I think Lloyd nailed it.  I load 165 grainers to about 2900 fps in the '06, and if you load them to .308 levels, 3000 fps is pretty easy to reach.  That makes for a 300 fps edge to the '06 (about the same as the difference between the '06 and .300 mag).  As to the claim that the .308 is lighter AND has less recoil, all I have to say is physics is physics.  Shooting the same bullet in both with about 10 more grains of powder in the '06 means a difference of about 2% in weight of projectile and powder.  That would equate to about a 2% increase in recoil.  Now, if the .308 rifle is sooo much lighter than a '06, it would actually have a more recoil.  Seriously, do you think a 10 or even 15 grain difference in powder weight in a supposedly HEAVIER rifle is going to result in ANY noticable difference in recoil?  If loaded to .308 levels, the '06 falls about halfway between the .308 and the .300 mag.  I don't hear anyone saying there is no difference in the '06 and the .300 mag.  If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

[tomtomz]

Casull, are you basing your argument on the same powder for all of those cartridges?

What powder would that be?

[Casull]

 

Casull, are you basing your argument on the same powder for all of those cartridges?

What powder would that be?

         Not necessarily the same powder.  But, I reload the '06 with H414.  58 grains gets about 2900 fps in the '06 (based on actual results) and the .308 takes about 52 grains for about 2700 fps (at least according to the tables).  I've also seen data (don't recall the powder) pushing a 150 grain bullet out of the '06 to about 3100 fps, whereas I believe the .308 tops out at about 2800 fps with the same weight bullet.

[nomosendero]

Lots of people will claim the 308 runs right with an o6 for velocity but that to hasnt proven to be the case for me. Keep in mind that factory 308s are loaded to quite a bit higher pressures then factory o6 ammo and since there both used in the same guns theres no reason why a guy cant load 06 ammo to the same pressures. When you do this the 06 leaves the 308 in the dust. Say what you want but its just common sense. the 06 has a bigger case holds more powder and will push ANY bullet faster then a 308. Id say the differnce is much closer to 200 fps then 100fps. Its just as much more powerful then the 308 as the 300 win  mag is over the 06

 
 
 
I think Lloyd nailed it.  I load 165 grainers to about 2900 fps in the '06, and if you load them to .308 levels, 3000 fps is pretty easy to reach.  That makes for a 300 fps edge to the '06 (about the same as the difference between the '06 and .300 mag).  As to the claim that the .308 is lighter AND has less recoil, all I have to say is physics is physics.  Shooting the same bullet in both with about 10 more grains of powder in the '06 means a difference of about 2% in weight of projectile and powder.  That would equate to about a 2% increase in recoil.  Now, if the .308 rifle is sooo much lighter than a '06, it would actually have a more recoil.  Seriously, do you think a 10 or even 15 grain difference in powder weight in a supposedly HEAVIER rifle is going to result in ANY noticable difference in recoil?  If loaded to .308 levels, the '06 falls about halfway between the .308 and the .300 mag.  I don't hear anyone saying there is no difference in the '06 and the .300 mag.  If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

I actually load both, it appears that the overall difference of 150fps with the 150 grain & about 250fps with the 165 & 180 with comparable pressures & real results instead of loading for one and reading about another. I have not been able to get 3000 with safe pressures in my past or present 06's with the 165, I would be very interested in the powder charge for a load that will do it easily. Only one of my manuals show that, the Nosler & it shows barely cracking 3000 (3002) with a 24" match barrel using RL22 loaded to 114% load density. Mine usually top out at 2950 tops with good pressure, so again let's see the load.
I do have a 30-06AI that maxes out about where some think a 30-06 should however.
I think Nosler is a wee optimistic here & they are with the 150 in 308 too, they show 3000, that's a wee fast.

Again, the rifles and what you are going to do with them is the issue, if it were velocity, we would just get a 30-378. Funny how some feel the velocity stopping place is exactly where their cartridge maxes out & anything slower or faster just seems wrong!

I have both, so no biggie to me, but it is curious to see the cartridge zealots state their case. 

[Casull]

Again, the rifles and what you are going to do with them is the issue, if it were velocity, we would just get a 30-378. Funny how some feel the velocity stopping place is exactly where their cartridge maxes out & anything slower or faster just seems wrong!

 
 
 
Kind of funny how some think all larger cases produce greater velocity, as long as it's NOT the '06.  Despite what some may think, there is nothing magical about the .308.  If you take a larger case and load it to the same pressures, it WILL produce greater velocity.     

[nomosendero]

No cartridge is magic!!

Yes, just like I said, larger case means more velocity & the increase comes at a decreasing rate as the case gets bigger, not a bad thing. That is why a 300mag out does the 06, but why it takes quite a bit more powder. For some applications it is a good tradeoff, which is why I have one.

Oh & concerning just a few grains of powder, I may need some help with that one. Usually, I am at about 44-48 grains of powder with the 308 and 168- 178A-Max bullet weights while I am at 55-60 or so gr. of powder depending on which powder with the 30-06 & 165-180 bullets. That does mean a lot with a volume round, which the 308 is for me. Also explains the long barrel life of a 308 as well, but that does not matter if you are not a volume shooter. Again, what are the uses of the gun?

[Ranch13]

IF I load my 06 with either 760 or H414 and go well past what most load manuals call for with 165 gr bt bullets, I can get that bullet to 2900. I tried some load data that showed 3000 fps, my chrono said from my rifle it was 2650.... With those top end loads I also have to watch the ambient temps , or primer pockets will loosen up.
I load the 308s with 748 and the same 165 used in the 06 and get 2750 and am a couple of grains under max, but when you can cut 3leaf clovers at 100 yds, those other 2 grs don't amount to much..
And either rifle an elk shot in the ribcage at 200 or so yds, you won't recover the bullet, have yet to recover a bullet from an antelope or deer no matter what the distance.... So it all comes down to which rifle you fits you best, and take the chambering it comes in because in real world applications there's not enough difference to get excited about.

[Casull]

Ranch13, must be that "magical" thing I was talking about.  Seems you shoot .308 at less pressure and powder than '06 and get MORE velocity.   

[Ranch13]

No actually if you look at pressure tested load data, the 308 is operating at higher pressure than the 06.
Just reporting what my rifles in both chamberings and the chronograph, dead animals and paper targets have told me .
100 maybe 150 fps if things are really stretched, same level of accuracy, what one rifle will do so will the other.
Once again choose the one that your gut tells you is best and never mind the symantics...

[ironglow]

  First off..BOTH are excellent rounds for big game...and no moose, deer, bear or any other game animal could tell you the difference..
  That being said, I just bought a new bolt gun for deer/black bear this past fall...and I picked up a Ruger American in .308.. I  Shot a good sized whitetail buck with it.... a 30/06 would have worked as well..but couldn't have worked better.  One shot about 100 yds., quartering through from rear...deer stumbled perhaps 30 yds to drop.
   I was first introduced to both cartridges in the Army..first the M-1 then the M-14..    After firing thousands of rounds of each, I was left with the impression that the .308 was a more accurate round.  Although I scored expert every time, my scores with the .308 were higher and about some time after using the 30/06..but that is just MY experience,,not scientific.
  At this time, due to the current use of the.308 by the military..brass may be a bit cheaper..but that is of small account.  I do like the shorter action..making a more compact rifle.
 
  Here's an interesting article,  found in "SNIPER COUNTRY" and written by an expert in the field;
      http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/accuracyfacts.asp

[scootrd]

If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

To accomplish what end result?

[Casull]

No actually if you look at pressure tested load data, the 308 is operating at higher pressure than the 06.
Just reporting what my rifles in both chamberings and the chronograph, dead animals and paper targets have told me .

 
 
Ranch13, I was going by what you said.  That you got 2650 fps and high pressure signs with the '06 and 2750 fps and no pressure signs with the .308.

[Casull]

To accomplish what end result?

        Flatter trajectory, more power.  What else?  If I don't care about that, I could just use my .30 m1 carbine, or throw a rock.

[Ranch13]

No actually if you look at pressure tested load data, the 308 is operating at higher pressure than the 06.
Just reporting what my rifles in both chamberings and the chronograph, dead animals and paper targets have told me .

 
 
Ranch13, I was going by what you said.  That you got 2650 fps and high pressure signs with the '06 and 2750 fps and no pressure signs with the .308.

No I said that the data that was claimed to give 3000 fps from the 06 only delivered 2650 from my rifle. The high pressure signs in the 06 come from going over the maximum listed loads with h414 and 760 (the 2900 fps stuff) and that's when the ambiant temps get a little high, which would indicate that it's probably quite a bit over pressure to begin with and the warmer temps aggrevate it further.
A quick check from most reload books show less fps difference with just about all bullets over 150 grs than what alot of people from get for SD in from day to day...between the two.

[nomosendero]

If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

To accomplish what end result?

Mute point, can't do it with a few grains more, more like 10 & then it's more like 200 instead of 300. Just like going to a 300WM, takes another 15 grains or so to get another 250 FPS, more grains of powder for the same amount of gain as you go up the scale, same with any other caliber.

[tomtomz]

I own nearly everything in 30 cal except  a 308. Most of mine
are heavy, pricey, or overscoped for practical use.

So I would like a 308 in a 20 inch barrel with a nice 3-9x44
optic, weighing in at 6.5 pounds total. With a detachable 10
round mag.

Legacy Sports has one of these in a HOWA action.
Tactical barrel and Weaver rail.

I could have fun with that!

[nomosendero]

I own nearly everything in 30 cal except  a 308. Most of mine
are heavy, pricey, or overscoped for practical use.

So I would like a 308 in a 20 inch barrel with a nice 3-9x44
optic, weighing in at 6.5 pounds total. With a detachable 10
round mag.

Legacy Sports has one of these in a HOWA action.
Tactical barrel and Weaver rail.

I could have fun with that!

Yea, I would say go for it!

[Lloyd Smale]

are you arguing that a 150 fps isnt a step up in power. Its about the differnce between a 06 and a 300 win mag or 300wsm and the differnce between those two and a 300 ultramag. As to the 308 not handling heavy bullets thats not much of a consern to me. When using either i rarely load anything over a 165. A 165 partition out of either will do well on ANY game those two rounds are suited too and shoot flatter then the 180s and especially the 200s. I resever the heavier bullets for the mags where they can be pushed to enough velocity to make them shine. To me a 200 grain bullet in the 308 or 06 is about silly. No doubt they will kill anything but why reduce a flat shooting rilfe to a rock lobber when the 200 buys you absolutely nothing on game lighter then 500 lbs. By the way i dont have a 30-378 but do have a couple 308s a couple 06s a 300wsm, a 300 win mag, a 300wby mag and a 300 ultramag and do own a chronograph so do have a pretty good idea of the differnces between them. You can put up a good argument for accuracy with the 308 and for effiecentcy but try as it might it will never match the power of an 06 just like the 06 wont ever be a 300 mag. At least not without leaving gun parts scattered at the range. 

Lots of people will claim the 308 runs right with an o6 for velocity but that to hasnt proven to be the case for me. Keep in mind that factory 308s are loaded to quite a bit higher pressures then factory o6 ammo and since there both used in the same guns theres no reason why a guy cant load 06 ammo to the same pressures. When you do this the 06 leaves the 308 in the dust. Say what you want but its just common sense. the 06 has a bigger case holds more powder and will push ANY bullet faster then a 308. Id say the differnce is much closer to 200 fps then 100fps. Its just as much more powerful then the 308 as the 300 win  mag is over the 06

 
 
 
I think Lloyd nailed it.  I load 165 grainers to about 2900 fps in the '06, and if you load them to .308 levels, 3000 fps is pretty easy to reach.  That makes for a 300 fps edge to the '06 (about the same as the difference between the '06 and .300 mag).  As to the claim that the .308 is lighter AND has less recoil, all I have to say is physics is physics.  Shooting the same bullet in both with about 10 more grains of powder in the '06 means a difference of about 2% in weight of projectile and powder.  That would equate to about a 2% increase in recoil.  Now, if the .308 rifle is sooo much lighter than a '06, it would actually have a more recoil.  Seriously, do you think a 10 or even 15 grain difference in powder weight in a supposedly HEAVIER rifle is going to result in ANY noticable difference in recoil?  If loaded to .308 levels, the '06 falls about halfway between the .308 and the .300 mag.  I don't hear anyone saying there is no difference in the '06 and the .300 mag.  If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

I actually load both, it appears that the overall difference of 150fps with the 150 grain & about 250fps with the 165 & 180 with comparable pressures & real results instead of loading for one and reading about another. I have not been able to get 3000 with safe pressures in my past or present 06's with the 165, I would be very interested in the powder charge for a load that will do it easily. Only one of my manuals show that, the Nosler & it shows barely cracking 3000 (3002) with a 24" match barrel using RL22 loaded to 114% load density. Mine usually top out at 2950 tops with good pressure, so again let's see the load.
I do have a 30-06AI that maxes out about where some think a 30-06 should however.
I think Nosler is a wee optimistic here & they are with the 150 in 308 too, they show 3000, that's a wee fast.

Again, the rifles and what you are going to do with them is the issue, if it were velocity, we would just get a 30-378. Funny how some feel the velocity stopping place is exactly where their cartridge maxes out & anything slower or faster just seems wrong!

I have both, so no biggie to me, but it is curious to see the cartridge zealots state their case. 

[Drilling Man]

If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

To accomplish what end result?

  To push a HEAVIER bullet at higher veloicity for MORE penetration on the bigger big game.
 
  I've shot 25 + moose, and NO i didn't always get that perfect side lung shot.  Same with bears where i don't prefer the lung shot for the first shot....
 
  DM

[Swampman]

I like a heavy bullet because it doesn't ruin a lot of meat and I want an exit wound.  I wish I had some of the old 180 Core-Lokts they had thinner jackets.

[nomosendero]

are you arguing that a 150 fps isnt a step up in power. Its about the differnce between a 06 and a 300 win mag or 300wsm and the differnce between those two and a 300 ultramag. As to the 308 not handling heavy bullets thats not much of a consern to me. When using either i rarely load anything over a 165. A 165 partition out of either will do well on ANY game those two rounds are suited too and shoot flatter then the 180s and especially the 200s. I resever the heavier bullets for the mags where they can be pushed to enough velocity to make them shine. To me a 200 grain bullet in the 308 or 06 is about silly. No doubt they will kill anything but why reduce a flat shooting rilfe to a rock lobber when the 200 buys you absolutely nothing on game lighter then 500 lbs. By the way i dont have a 30-378 but do have a couple 308s a couple 06s a 300wsm, a 300 win mag, a 300wby mag and a 300 ultramag and do own a chronograph so do have a pretty good idea of the differnces between them. You can put up a good argument for accuracy with the 308 and for effiecentcy but try as it might it will never match the power of an 06 just like the 06 wont ever be a 300 mag. At least not without leaving gun parts scattered at the range. 

Lots of people will claim the 308 runs right with an o6 for velocity but that to hasnt proven to be the case for me. Keep in mind that factory 308s are loaded to quite a bit higher pressures then factory o6 ammo and since there both used in the same guns theres no reason why a guy cant load 06 ammo to the same pressures. When you do this the 06 leaves the 308 in the dust. Say what you want but its just common sense. the 06 has a bigger case holds more powder and will push ANY bullet faster then a 308. Id say the differnce is much closer to 200 fps then 100fps. Its just as much more powerful then the 308 as the 300 win  mag is over the 06

 
 
 
I think Lloyd nailed it.  I load 165 grainers to about 2900 fps in the '06, and if you load them to .308 levels, 3000 fps is pretty easy to reach.  That makes for a 300 fps edge to the '06 (about the same as the difference between the '06 and .300 mag).  As to the claim that the .308 is lighter AND has less recoil, all I have to say is physics is physics.  Shooting the same bullet in both with about 10 more grains of powder in the '06 means a difference of about 2% in weight of projectile and powder.  That would equate to about a 2% increase in recoil.  Now, if the .308 rifle is sooo much lighter than a '06, it would actually have a more recoil.  Seriously, do you think a 10 or even 15 grain difference in powder weight in a supposedly HEAVIER rifle is going to result in ANY noticable difference in recoil?  If loaded to .308 levels, the '06 falls about halfway between the .308 and the .300 mag.  I don't hear anyone saying there is no difference in the '06 and the .300 mag.  If I can get 200 to 300 fps more velocity for a few more grains of powder in a '06, I'll take it.

I actually load both, it appears that the overall difference of 150fps with the 150 grain & about 250fps with the 165 & 180 with comparable pressures & real results instead of loading for one and reading about another. I have not been able to get 3000 with safe pressures in my past or present 06's with the 165, I would be very interested in the powder charge for a load that will do it easily. Only one of my manuals show that, the Nosler & it shows barely cracking 3000 (3002) with a 24" match barrel using RL22 loaded to 114% load density. Mine usually top out at 2950 tops with good pressure, so again let's see the load.
I do have a 30-06AI that maxes out about where some think a 30-06 should however.
I think Nosler is a wee optimistic here & they are with the 150 in 308 too, they show 3000, that's a wee fast.

Again, the rifles and what you are going to do with them is the issue, if it were velocity, we would just get a 30-378. Funny how some feel the velocity stopping place is exactly where their cartridge maxes out & anything slower or faster just seems wrong!

I have both, so no biggie to me, but it is curious to see the cartridge zealots state their case. 

No, I am not making the argument that 150fps doesn't matter, if that was the case I would not shoot both the '06 & 308 & also the 300WM, I don't see how anyone would read that into it. What I am saying & said in that post is the difference is closer to 150fps with 150 gr or 225-250fps difference with 165-180 gr., not with 300fps diff. with all those bullets as stated nor will you get the 200 and maybe change vel. difference in the 165/180 with 2 or 3 grains of powder as stated before, just doesn't work that way & that would be a fact.

[Dixie Dude]

I have three 308's and one 30-06.  IMHO, I think the 308 is best from 165 grain bullets and less.  30-06 is best for 165 grains and up.  30-06 is best for all round North American game, the 308 is fine for the lower 48.

[jparedes]

With all this bruhaha on ammo scarcity, you can still find 30-06 and 30-30, but no .308 or .223.
So, from a practical point of view, get a .30-06.

[Swampman]

Around here you can't find .30-06 or even .30-06 brass, bullets, or powder.  In fact it's hard to find a rifle you'd actually buy.

[nomosendero]

308 was that way here until this week. Academy and others here have started getting 308 ammo, people did not buy up 30-06 here, but 223 is still very hard to find. The panic (not unfounded) will drop off soon, but will take a few months to catch up.

[tomtomz]

Velocity is fun for punching holes through steel plate.

Flat shooting makes a long shot simpler.

Nothing is as important as a well-fit rifle you've spent time with and learned
its capabilities.    If you buy something, enjoy it or sell it and try again.

[scootrd]

I thought this was an interesting perspective on the 220 RN out of an '06

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns/rifles/2007/09/are-bigger-bullets-better

Excerpt  -
Article by Jim Carmichel

 ..........there is a small (and growing smaller) army of hunters who stubbornly cling to the notion that a 220-grain bullet from their .30/06 shoots harder, busts brush better and kills deader than any lighter bullets ever will.

 The truth is that most 220-grain bullets have very few redeeming features when loaded in the .30/06. To begin with, it starts out too slow (about 2,400 fps at the muzzle) and gets a lot slower in a hurry because the round nose doesn't drill through the atmosphere as efficiently as a pointed bullet. Somewhere in dim history a rumor got started that round-nosed bullets penetrate brush better than the pointy types. Whoever thought up that one was in need of a cold shower, because round-nosed bullets with big patches of exposed lead at the tip-I call 'em ice cream cones-are about the worst possible choice for hunting in brush. Picture a bowling ball made of putty and you'll get the idea.

 A few years back I got a call from a big ammo company asking if I could explain why they sold so much .30/06 ammo with 220-grain bullets in a two- or three-county area not far from where I live. I told him I had no idea, but when I checked it out I discovered that "shooting" fish was legal and popular in a river that ran through those counties. Apparently the locals felt that the heavier bullets created more fish-stunning concussion and, if so, the old 220-grain slug has a redeeming quality after all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against heavy bullets. For example, of the various bullets I load in my .338 Win. Mag., I stoutly maintain that a 250-grain-the heaviest bullet commonly available-is by far the best choice. After all, that's what the .338 Mag. is all about. Anyone who favors lighter slugs just hasn't been eye-to-eye with a grizzly.

[Drilling Man]

  You are kinda stuck on 220 grain bullets, aren't you???  I've NEVER promoted 220's in .308 caliber no matter what cartridge was behind it.
 
  For bigger big game, there is NO question in my mind that 200NP's (at a decent velocity) are the way to go!  AND a good 150 or 165 is all anyone would need for deer...
 
  DM

[scootrd]

  You are kinda stuck on 220 grain bullets, aren't you???  I've NEVER promoted 220's in .308 caliber no matter what cartridge was behind it.
 
  For bigger big game, there is NO question in my mind that 200NP's (at a decent velocity) are the way to go!  AND a good 150 or 165 is all anyone would need for deer...
 
  DM

Don't know if stuck is the word . I find the 220's '06 Topic interesting. I also enjoy reading different perspectives from those who have used them hunting. While some swear by them , others see no need. Most I ever used out my old '06 is 180's (and that was rare). I mostly green box 150's core-lokts for whitetails.

So yes for me it is an interesting topic.