Compact 9 mm's

[Spirithawk]

I haven't read any reports of LC9s blowing up.

No, just bad firing pins, take down assemblies, mag release catches, failure to feed, failure to extract, stove piping, ect. But that's neither here nor there now is it because you haven't heard of a P-32, P3AT nor a PF-9 blowing up either unless someone was using way too hot an ammo which could just as easily happen in a LC9 or are you saying Ruger has some mysterious patent that keeps that from happening? Fact is there's an awful lot of fans of Kel Tec so just get over it!

[Swampman]

No, Ruger just uses quality materials.  The LC9 is the most popular carry gun around and with good reason.

[Spirithawk]

No, Ruger just uses quality materials.  The LC9 is the most popular carry gun around and with good reason.

Sorry Swamp, but no it certainly is not and your saying so doesn't make it so. Your argument  is getting weaker and weaker. I won't even claim the PF-9 is the most popular, though wayyyyy more have been sold than the LC9! Why?  Because I'm not grasping at straws even though it's been widely claimed the PF-9 does now hold that title. Saying Ruger uses higher quality materials is a laugh as they use the same as Kel Tec. Gee, imagine that!  Your argument defeats itself. As I said, don't like Kel Tec? Then don't buy one. Those thousands of us that do like them could care less. Just don't tell us not to buy them based on info you know is faulty and we won't tell you to steer clear of Ruger.  I'll address blowing up one last time. Yes, one Kel Tec model had that problem. Why? It was agreed by all, including the owners ( One being your Mr. Quin), that a particular ammo was simply way too hot! Did Kel Tec simply say stay away from that ammo, as they would have every right to do? No, they addressed the problem by beefing up that model so it could handle it. Not many companies would have bothered and their warranty and service is unmatched by anyone. But, you still choose to dwell on old news because that's the only argument you can come up with. Well tell you what, you carry your cartridge finicky LC9 and hope it doesn't have the feeding problems it's known to be plaqued with and let us Kel Tec owners worry about ourselve's. We've been doing just fine without you. Just so you know, I was a Ruger fan long before I ever even heard of Kel Tec but I base my opinions more on my experience and those of people I know rather than You Tube videos, by so called experts that barely manage to even load a gun, or articles with cork sniffing expert wanna bes. The Mr. Quin you're so found of quoting has been banned from many gun forums for trolling. Yeah, kinda guy I look to for advice....not!

[mcwoodduck]

And you two have devolved into Ford Vs Chevy.  No my pick up truck is better, No mine...
Most conversatios on opinon with Swampman devolves into this.
Just ask him about a Remington 700 vs a Ruger M77 and somehow the Ruger is no long quality or accurate.

[Spirithawk]

And you two have devolved into Ford Vs Chevy.  No my pick up truck is better, No mine...
Most conversatios on opinon with Swampman devolves into this.
Just ask him about a Remington 700 vs a Ruger M77 and somehow the Ruger is no long quality or accurate.

Trust me, I know Swamps style.     Gave him every chance to back up his claim but as usualy he'd rather play dodge ball. Myself, I'll get off his merry-go-round and move on to more productive things.

[Empty Quiver]

I see this as a Kel Tec was so good Ruger decided to copy it. Sure they put their touches on it but in the end its the same dang gun. At the range saturday I watched a fellow fool with a Ruger pistol for about 45 minutes in that time he must have had a dozen FTF problems.
 
As God is my witness I have experienced ZERO failures with my SIG's, ( P-239, P-225, SP-2340 )this is over 8 yrs and likely >10,000 rounds. Winter, summer, freshly cleaned and lubed, 500rounds of fouling, WWB, Blazer, Rem, Seliour Beloit, Federal, range fodder, and every sort of carry ammo I can find. Never a failure, I don't know what I would do if it didn't fire, I have never had the experience. The poor SOB I watched was dang good at failure drills I'll give him that. 
 
The wife has a XD 9sc, it hung up a couple times with the first mag. I believe it was my fault for not having cleaned the mag before starting as it has never failed since. I suppose it has <600 rounds through it now without any further troubles.
 
Get yourself a P-239, a quality holster and don't look back. Your pocket is a piss poor place to be dinking around looking for a pistol.

[Spirithawk]

I see this as a Kel Tec was so good Ruger decided to copy it. Sure they put their touches on it but in the end its the same dang gun. At the range saturday I watched a fellow fool with a Ruger pistol for about 45 minutes in that time he must have had a dozen FTF problems.
 
As God is my witness I have experienced ZERO failures with my SIG's, ( P-239, P-225, SP-2340 )this is over 8 yrs and likely >10,000 rounds. Winter, summer, freshly cleaned and lubed, 500rounds of fouling, WWB, Blazer, Rem, Seliour Beloit, Federal, range fodder, and every sort of carry ammo I can find. Never a failure, I don't know what I would do if it didn't fire, I have never had the experience. The poor SOB I watched was dang good at failure drills I'll give him that.  My Kel Tecs, as well as those of my son and grandson, have proven themselve's through use. That's good enough for me.
 
The wife has a XD 9sc, it hung up a couple times with the first mag. I believe it was my fault for not having cleaned the mag before starting as it has never failed since. I suppose it has <600 rounds through it now without any further troubles.
 
Get yourself a P-239, a quality holster and don't look back. Your pocket is a piss poor place to be dinking around looking for a pistol.

XD's are awesome guns. As for the guy being good at failure drills it looks like he had lots of reason to practice. But in all fairness, I don't care what the make you can get a bad one. That's mainly what I was trying to get Swamp, and Mike, to see but they can't seem to see past their predjudice. To me opinions are ok but proof is in the actual performance and mine, my son's and grandson's Kel Tecs have performed flawlessly. That speaks more than words and I don't care who's saying them.

[Mike in Virginia]

I take it my apology was not accepted.  That's okay.  From what I've seen of your posts here, I'm sure you're a good man.  Maybe I just hit a nerve or you are not happy with me because I won't change my opinion.  I hope you'll keep mind we're only talking about guns.  Material possessions.  But such has been the making of enemies for eons past.  Ain't no thing.  I shall hereafter tread lightly on the subject of Kel-Tecs, junk though they be.  Sorry, couldn't help saying it one more time.   

[Spirithawk]

I take it my apology was not accepted.  That's okay.  From what I've seen of your posts here, I'm sure you're a good man.  Maybe I just hit a nerve or you are not happy with me because I won't change my opinion.  I hope you'll keep mind we're only talking about guns.  Material possessions.  But such has been the making of enemies for eons past.  Ain't no thing.  I shall hereafter tread lightly on the subject of Kel-Tecs, junk though they be.  Sorry, couldn't help saying it one more time.   

Mike, no hard feelings. You've a right to your opinion but some advise for ya. It's more how you stated your opinion than that you did. " Kel Tecs are easy to make fun of." Now tell me that's not a statement one would not expect a reaction too. Particularly on a site where you know many own and like them including Mr. Graybeard himself. Were it not that Kel Tec is highly respected by Law Enforcement and those who own them your comment might have slid. However though when advised that the problems you mentioned were either quickly corrected long ago or are not problems as much as personal opinion, such as the trigger pull which exists the same on almost all sub compact double actions and is that way for a very good reason primarily being safety, you still couldn't help but jibe, " I still don't know why anybody would own one!" Well dang Mike, you were told why. They've proven to those that own them to be well made, accurate, easy to carry and conceal and are very reliable all at a very affordable price. By all means, please tell me, what's so hard to understand about that? Still, even now, you couldn't resist calling them junk. Based on what Mike? Here's an obvious question for you. If they are junk then why do so many like them enough to own not one but many?  Mike, ya trash anyone's choice of firearm unjustly and what do you expect their reaction to be? If you actually owned one and had problems with it other than personal opinion, which even someone who's never held a gun could have, then I'd be way more apt to listen to complaints. What frustrates me is I give you facts and get nothing but opinion in return. Never asked you yourself to like them but I take issue with you saying others shouldn't.
 

[Swampman]

And you two have devolved into Ford Vs Chevy.

More like Ford Vs. Yugo.....and I just dumped a nice new Hawkeye because the accuracy was horrible.

[Spirithawk]

And you two have devolved into Ford Vs Chevy.

More like Ford Vs. Yugo.....and I just dumped a nice new Hawkeye because the accuracy was horrible.

Your opinion Swamp, and we all know how much you love giving it. Unfortunatly for your weak argument and cheap shots there's thousands of happy Kel Tec owners that could care less. I've better things to do that beat a dead horse with you. Myself? I'm going bow hunting in the morning with my son. Oh, and my PF-9 will be on my belt too.

[Swampman]

Ignorance is bliss.....Cheapest is not always the least expensive.

[greenrivers]

Surprised. No mention of the Berreta PX4. No one tried or have one? Mine has had zero failures so far, and with varied ammo.

[Spirithawk]

Ignorance is bliss.....Cheapest is not always the least expensive.

Nor is expensive always the best made. Ya see Swamp, you tell half truths and forget the part that doesn't suit your arguments. I'm gonna say it like this, and this applies to anything you buy and I think most here will agree, when a number of people own it, when they have used it and put it through anything it could be put through within reason, and it has performed well if not flawlessly for them why then is it hard to take their recomendation or word on it? Is that not THE BEST  recomendations any product can have or even hope to have? Now take that and ask yourself why you would take the word of a wannabe expert who's known to be full of himself, who's been banned from several firearms forums for trash talking about any firearm you can name, who still then trolls those forums under a variety of names, who quotes far out dated info when it suits him and who's  opinions vary depending on the mood he's in, over true owners unless you've just got an axe to grind because others like something you don't and that just bugs you to death? I'm fine with you not liking Kel Tec. They aren't going to go broke, nor folks who like Kel Tec going to quit liking them simply because you don't.  Personaly I think the newer Rugers coming out these days are the junk you claim Kel Tecs to be and not equal in any way to older model Rugers. I hate saying that because I'm a long time fan of Ruger and want to give them time to work out the bugs. When and if I hear from actual owners that say the problems have been fixed, that customer service has improved,  I'm not so stubborn that I won't change my opinion. Guess that's the differance here between us Swamp.

[keith44]

Spirithawk or Spirited hawk??


I think Swampy just likes spinning you up for the show, you are passionate, and I mostly agree with you, but a different tactic may be needed to for Swampy

[Spirithawk]

Spirithawk or Spirited hawk??


I think Swampy just likes spinning you up for the show, you are passionate, and I mostly agree with you, but a different tactic may be needed to for Swampy

It's 5am and I'm headed for the woods with my bow soon as my son gets here. That's the way to handle Swamp. Not telling him what brand bow though. He'll say it's junk because it could blow up. He knows that for a fact. He read it on the net compltete with pics. Dang, now where'd I put my flak Jacket?

[Swampman]

Pictures don't lie......over the years many folks have depended on Rossi, RG, Taraus, and similar "Saturday Night Specials" to save their skins.  You don't want to hear a click when you should be hearing a bang.

[WD45]

The PX4 is a different animal. I dont know anyone that has one to try out. I hear they are good shooters. How does it compare in size to the LC9 ?

[Spirithawk]

Pictures don't lie......over the years many folks have depended on Rossi, RG, Taraus, and similar "Saturday Night Specials" to save their skins.  You don't want to hear a click when you should be hearing a bang.

Pics do lie when they are old outdated pics used for an up to date argument. That's been my point. Find me a  recent pic  and I'll believe you. But that's still only one model out of several.  You wanna tell me Ruger has never screwed up? You probably will but  you know you'd be  lying.

[Mike in Virginia]

Kel-Tecs used to be defective and now they're not?  Whatever was wrong with them got fixed?  They had a defective product on the market and changed it?  Which one did Ruger copy, the broke one or the fixed one?  I remember when Charter Arms were defective.  Some folks say they still are. 
If the fit and finish is off, you might think the guts of the thing are also off.  I think we get what we pay for.  I think cheap guns will always sell.  Lots of gun buyers, maybe most gun buyers, are not gun buffs.  They just want a gun and they don't think to  much about the quality.  If they can't afford a Ruger, they buy something that costs less, and they get what they pay for. 

[Savage]

I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed by this debate. Ones opinion is as good as another. It's a great thing having choices, and those are individual things. They require no approval other than our own, and we are the ones that live with them.
The same is true with guns------------- . But I digress.
Savage

[WD45]

When Glock first came out most people trashed them pretty good on a constant basis. Cheap plastic junk as I recall. They have had some let go too yet people still love them. I would not call them expensive either especially compared to a wilson combat 1911or such. And ya know, I dont hear anyone trashing  them or any other 1911 maker for all the copies they make. I dont hear to many people stating the only 1911 worth buying is a Colt and all the rest are just copies 

[Swampman]

Pictures don't lie......over the years many folks have depended on Rossi, RG, Taraus, and similar "Saturday Night Specials" to save their skins.  You don't want to hear a click when you should be hearing a bang.

Pics do lie when they are old outdated pics used for an up to date argument. That's been my point. Find me a  recent pic  and I'll believe you. But that's still only one model out of several.  You wanna tell me Ruger has never screwed up? You probably will but  you know you'd be  lying.

A week old pic is old and outdated?

[Mike in Virginia]

WD45, you don't hear anyone trashing Glocks?  Well let me be the first.  I'd rather have a Kel-Tec than a dern plastic Glock, and that's saying something because I have no use for a Kel-Tec.  That said, most people choosing an over-the- counter pistol will chose a Glock because they've heard so much about how cool they are and they are all the rage on tv.  Also, Glocks work just fine.  They are not the most accurate handguns available, and they certainly are not the prettiest, but they work.  Plastic sights work just as well as steel sights.  A Glock is functional and easy to use.  Lots of police agencies issue Glocks.  A .40 caliber Glock is probably the most popular semi pistol on the market.   A complete idiot can fire a Glock.  I think that's why they are so popular.  A cocked and locked 1911 is way to scary and complicated.  Even a Ruger with a safety, or a Sig with a de-cock mechanism is too much for idiots to master.  The Glock is king these days because they are popular, they are idiot proof, and plastic parts are not a negative in modern times. 
Some here, like Spirithawk, take offense when their choice of firearms is not the choice of others.  I don't give a rat's patoot about who is offended when I say Glock, Taurus, Charter Arms and Kel-Tec are cheap trash made for suckers and those with limited intellect who can't operate real guns.  It ain't personal.  Facts are just plain facts.  A person's choice of guns is not a reflection of his character.  It might shed some light on his ability or insecurity, but it takes nothing away from him as a person.  I have friends and relatives with more intelligence than I who carry Glocks.  Because I don't like such weak choices does not pose a barrier in our relationship.  Some people need a Glock for their simplicity.  Some people like Glocks for their simplicity.  Some people want a Glock because they are just plain ignorant. 
Same thing with a Kel-Tec.  Gun show browsers look for a gun, they see Kel-Tecs and Smiths and Rugers and Taurus and Kimbers and Glocks.  He who choses the cheap-ass gun is lacking either in mentality or education.  I can't believe it's about money.  Money is not relative to guns, IMO.  Quality is quality and trash is trash.  Even when the gun show idiot can afford a Lexus and a 5 bedroom home, he choses a cheap gun.  Something in their brain is defective or absent.  The reasonable and logical parts of their brain is broken or missing.  Either that, or they don't much care what firearm they select, except that it ought to conform with the latest shoot 'em up movie they saw.         
So, why do all the police agencies use Glock 40's.  The answer is so simple.  It's because women and sissies can't operate anything with more than one control.  Pull the trigger and get a bang.  Pull it again and get another bang.  Idiot proof.  Even under combat stress, the Glock works for them.  But they are still plastic, and they still look like a painted 2x4.
I'm just saying he who hasn't heard the Glock trashed, now has.  Glad to be of service in that regard. 
       
 

[Spirithawk]

Pictures don't lie......over the years many folks have depended on Rossi, RG, Taraus, and similar "Saturday Night Specials" to save their skins.  You don't want to hear a click when you should be hearing a bang.

Pics do lie when they are old outdated pics used for an up to date argument. That's been my point. Find me a  recent pic  and I'll believe you. But that's still only one model out of several.  You wanna tell me Ruger has never screwed up? You probably will but  you know you'd be  lying.

A week old pic is old and outdated?

Funny, I had to dig like heck to even find the pic and when I did it sure wasn't dated. But of course, if you say so Swamp. You guys can keep on trashing Kel tec all  ya want and we'll keep on laughing and buying more. That's the name of that tune.

[keith44]

Pictures don't lie......over the years many folks have depended on Rossi, RG, Taraus, and similar "Saturday Night Specials" to save their skins.  You don't want to hear a click when you should be hearing a bang.

Pics do lie when they are old outdated pics used for an up to date argument. That's been my point. Find me a  recent pic  and I'll believe you. But that's still only one model out of several.  You wanna tell me Ruger has never screwed up? You probably will but  you know you'd be  lying.

A week old pic is old and outdated?

Funny, I had to dig like heck to even find the pic and when I did it sure wasn't dated. But of course, if you say so Swamp. You guys can keep on trashing Kel tec all  ya want and we'll keep on laughing and buying more. That's the name of that tune.

 

[Savage]

Come on Mike, tell us how you really feel! Me thinks Mike is enjoying his role as Devil's Advocate. Actually he's pretty much right on when it comes to why people buy inexpensive guns.  If it counts for anything Mike, I always carry my Kel Tecs concealed, and don't show them to anyone. Can't say the same about the Glocks, I compete with those, so there's video evidence. If it helps, for Barbeques and social events, I'll break out a Kimber with nice grips and wear it a nice leather holster open carry. Enjoying the thread! 
Savage

[Mike in Virginia]

I'm funny. 

[DDZ]

I was always one that thought the more you pay for something the better product you get. I still do believe that to a certain extent, in some products. I have never shot a Kel-Tec, nor held one. They may be very reliable guns. People that own them like them. That kind of tells be a little bit about them. I do believe you can get a gun that has problems no matter what you pay.
Take the Kimber for instance. I know three people personally that own one. Out of the three, two of the Kimbers have problems. The 9mm will not feed anything but 147 gr. bullets reliably. The other one is a .45 that ejected the empties back in your face. He contacted Kimber, and they told him he needs to shoot it 500 times. This is their answer after buying a $1000 gun. He sent it back. The Kimbers certainly are pretty. I guess that must be what you pay for when you buy one, because I don't think they are any better than a gun priced at half the cost. I would not have any problem with a Kel-Tec if it functioned well. I know I wouldn't be nearly as ticked if I bought a Kel-Tec, and it had a problem. Compared to buying a $1000 Kimber and it having a problem.
I know some guys like pretty. I guess its how Kimber sells their guns, because I certainly don't think any of them are worth a thousand bucks. Its one thing thats great about handguns, we get lots to choose from, and we each get to make our own minds up as to whats best for us.   

[Spirithawk]

 YES, I know early on Kel Tec had some problems. New firearms, new designs, few bugs to be worked out. Shocking huh? OK, Swamp and Mike you guys name me one company that hasn't gone through the same thing. Almost all, if not all, have and way too many keep repeating the mistakes and seem to care less. The thing about Kel Tec is this. They admitted the problems and quickly and decisively took care of them IN EVERY SINGLE CASE. So coming out with second generation firearms with all the bugs fixed is a bad thing? REALLY? You'd rather they kept making them defective? Guess maybe so as you insinuate that would make you happy, Mike, as you criticise them for fixing the problems. Not only did they fix the problems but if you had one that gave you trouble, no matter how minor, and sent it back to them guess what? Lets say it was failure to eject.....they returned you your firearm with not only that problem fixed but the whole gun gone through completely.No matter how minor the problem!  They sent it back with new springs, often a new slide upgraded to hard chrome or Parkerised, new mag release buttons, new mag, new everything no matter how old your Kel Tec was or how it was abused and guess what they charged? A whopping NOTHING! They made dang sure you were returned a firearm that never gave you another problem. From all I've read, and that's been a lot, and from all the folks I've personaly talked to, Kel Tec has the best service department out there bar none. You say we should hate them for that? Care to tell me your reasoning on that or do you have one other tham mere whim?    

Ya know, I've played guitar since I was 14, now I'm 59 in a few days, and I can compare this argument to guitars and guitar players. To many, unless your choice is a work of art that dazzles the eyes and that you can show off, unless it cost you a years worth of paychecks or more, then it's not worth owning nor can your's be as good as theirs. Doesn't matter one iotta to them if your guitar plays and sounds as good or even better than their pretty high dollar one. To them having something they can show off seemingly making them superior some how is all that seems to matter. Know what fellow guitar players call them? CORK SNIFFERS! Tag Mike and Swamp, your it.