Recall Governor Walker??

[scootrd]

Lastly its amazing to me how the republicans hate unions, they would rather tear down wages instead of trying to bring everyones up. It is a race to the bottom.

Thank god for the UMW.
Folks who forget their history should go back and revisit the Harlan County Kentucky Brookside war of '72.
I'll stand with Labor everytime.

Semper Fi

[Buckskin]

Lastly its amazing to me how the republicans hate unions, they would rather tear down wages instead of trying to bring everyones up. It is a race to the bottom.

I don't hate unions, they had their place in this country. This is not the 18th century, there are laws that protect workers.  And in my opinion if you can't prove your worth by your own merit instead of a pay scale, well, you probably aren't worth your pay.... Private unions can do what they please, public unions are an anchor with no rope... Illinois is a strong union state, can't work on a site without having a union rep breathing down your neck.  Look how Illinois is doing.  Liberals like Gunny never seem to acknowledge states like Illinois who are damn near bankrupt because of unions and liberal policy.  Wisconsin was headed that way and Walker saved it.  So what should Illinois do Gunny??? Raise taxes again? That didn't work last year... Brought in less revenue than the year before. Even though the Chosen One is in the Oval office and from Illinois to boot.... Problem with unions is that they never bargain in good faith, always boot to the throat.  Walker fixed that, and God bless him for that!!!
 
 
 

[gunny4]

Whoa!!!! you said unions NEVER bargain in good faith then you said you don,t hate unions , in my opinion sir  you are a hypocrite. Come on say it you hate unions . Labor made this country what it is ,if not for unions the rest of the non union businesses would pay there labor much less . Of course  thats what you want, a right to work state ,the right to pay labor as little as possible that way you can keep them down. It is a race to the bottom with republicans.

[gunny4]

Lets see private sector union equals about 7% of labor force. 93% are non union,and you are blaming the ills of the country on 7% How do you explain that to me? 

[Casull]

Lets see private sector union equals about 7% of labor force. 93% are non union,and you are blaming the ills of the country on 7% How do you explain that to me?

 
 
 
Looks to me like Buckskin was talking about PUBLIC sector unions, which is what Governor Walker was dealing with as well.  Why do you keep trying to change the subject?

[gunny4]

Really??

[Buckskin]

I don't hate unions, you can think what you want.  And yes they were an important part in building this country.  As I said public and private unions are two different entities.  Publice unions can't have the keys to the store, they need to give in and contribute like everyone else and they don't want to do that. That of course is why they are crying in there oatmeal over Walker...  Public unions have nothing to do with the evil corporations that you so hate (because your unions tell you to).  They are paid out of my pocket and yours as well and thankfully Walker is gaining control of the waste. 
 
 
I could care less what private unions negotiate... If they bargain there way out of a job, I don't give a rats behind.  If they want to push all union work to the south into right to work states, so what...  And of course I want a right to work state! Then Wisconsin could benefit by bringing work here... There is no reason to be forced to use union labor when there are non-union shops of the same trade, who do just as good of work (probably better) and who are just as happy (probably more) working outside of the unions claws, and who get paid just as much (probably more) because they aren't constricted by the unions scale and don't have to pay dues...  But the unions have hobbled their sheep to stay in their pasture and eat only the weeds they allow...
 
 

Lets see private sector union equals about 7% of labor force. 93% are non union,and you are blaming the ills of the country on 7% How do you explain that to me?

 
Ahhhh, you forgot about those public unions (that don't give an inch) and the donkeys that have run Illinois forever... Which is what this whole subject is about.  Although private unions are effective in chasing jobs into right to work states, which doesn't help. But you union members go ahead and stick to your guns until you have no toes left....
 
 
So now are you going to tell me how to get Illinois out of the mess they are in??? Come on Gunny, your so quick to shoot me down.  We have 2 states going in different directions with polar opposite methods. One is near bankruptcy and the other is in the black, creating jobs and irritating liberals everywhere!!! Walker is the best governor this state has ever put in office!
 
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/23/us-illinois-debt-treasurer-idUSTRE74M63E20110523

[gunny4]

Buckskin you say the unions bargin boot to throat but someone has agreed to those contracts right or wrong . Someone agreed to those conditions ,don,t you think if they thought it was a bad deal you would,nt agree to it ? What responsibility do the negotiators have?

[BUGEYE]

here's an example of how the unions manage the members dues.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,472304,00.html

[Buckskin]

Buckskin you say the unions bargin boot to throat but someone has agreed to those contracts right or wrong . Someone agreed to those conditions ,don,t you think if they thought it was a bad deal you would,nt agree to it ? What responsibility do the negotiators have?

You're right! They weigh their options, many move away to right to work states, which ever option makes the most sense. A lot of times it goes down to the wire and companies such as Mercury find a place down south and are prepared to move everything. And what do the union bosses say? They don't do what is best for the workers, they do what's best for them... They told the Mercury workers to refuse Merc's offer and let them move out of state.  Thankfully for them, they excepted Merc's compromise and still have jobs.
 
 
A lot of companies went bankrupt giving in to the unions, in there eyes they had no choice.  I remember when Wisconsin was a powerhouse for manufacturing, now it is a shell and nearly all the blame for that goes to the unions..
 
 
Many of them avoid union controlled states altogether, which is smart.  But the blame for lost jobs is on the unions not the companies.  I stated before that this isn't the 1800's anymore, it's also not the 1970' either. Global market, businesses can't afford to pay outlandish union demands anymore. And this is conversation was about private unions, Scott Walker is responsible for Wisconsin public unions and he made a great deal.
 
Ok, I answered your questions, now how about you stop sidestepping mine and tell me what should be done in Illinois...

[ironglow]

  In Wisconsin, as in many other states, the public employee unions are the biggest single reason states are going broke!  These greedy, self-centered organizations have about ruined the respective states where they have virtual control.
 
        But you union fawners want to talk about the 7% involved outside of being parasites at the public trough..let's do that!
  I speak as one who has worked both union and non-union.  Last union job I worked at was in the painting/industrial coatings area.  Working union style is a huge exercise in inefficency and purposeful foot-dragging on the job.  I have been held up sometimes 2 hours on the job waiting for a "stationary engineer" to plug in a simple air line as found at your local service station.  I am hired by the hour, when unions play such games I believe they are STEALING 2 hours pay..theives..
   
  Here's an example of the 7% around here..  http://abcnews.go.com/Business/nasty-union-violence-legal/story?id=14572790
     The FBI saystThese thugs have threatened, beat up and stabbed men, threatened their wives wit sexual assault and their children with harm.  As if that weren't enough, they put sand in engines and transmissions of machines on the job.  Now, they rightly face many years in crossbar hotel..around here , that's spelled ATTICA..enjoy, union thugs..
    http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/17404209.html
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  That happened in Erie county, NY..  Next county to the north is Niagara county (Yes, Niagara Falls).. it is so despoiled by the unions that very few want to work or open a business there .  Contractors from our area check just where the county line is before even considering taking a job.
    http://www.ipsn.org/indictments/quarcini_indictment_local_91.htm
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  Now, let's compare that 7% with the 93% who are not involved in unions.. Can you find an equivalent (for 93%) number of links which show where the non-union types have engaged in such practices ?  If you can't..then the answer is obvious !

[BUGEYE]

some good friends lost their jobs when the union took down eastern airlines.

[ironglow]

some good friends lost their jobs when the union took down eastern airlines.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
   
  Sometimes the good guys win, look at the PATCO strike !  My niece, an air traffic controller..fresh out of the Navy at the time, has since then, been a happy, non-striking air traffic controller...    
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  From Scootr;
           " Thank god for the UMW.
Folks who forget their history should go back and revisit the Harlan County Kentucky Brookside war of '72.
I'll stand with Labor everytime".
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Do you still "stand with the unions" and what they did in Erie and Niagara counties in NY ?  I know and used to work with one of those fellows of local #17.  He was a pretty good kid then;.. a little bit "smart-alecky', but nothing we couldn't deal with on a daily basis..now he faces 20 years.  He has a wife & kids..another casualty of union practices...the whole family is..

[scootrd]

  In Wisconsin, as in many other states, the public employee unions are the biggest single reason states are going broke! 
 

That's just bull pucky.

The single biggest reason the states are going broke is they continue to give huge tax breaks (loss in state revenue) to corporations , and receive nothing in return.  No Jobs  -  less tax payers. Then to add insult to injury state legislators scream budget crisis (of their own makings), then attack the middle class to make up for the budget shortfalls.

[ironglow]

Scootr;
  Just read this from the indictment..aren't you proud of the union !  Do you still "stand by" these thugs ?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
 
    " In Hamburg, New York, near Buffalo, leaders of the International Union of Operating Engineers Local 17 stand accused of violent acts, threats of violence, and destruction of property. The defendants have denied the allegations, according to the Buffalo News.
According to court papers and to coverage by the Buffalo News, the charges against them include stabbing a knife into the neck of a construction company president, throwing hot coffee at non-union workers, pouring sand into gas tanks and transmissions of 17 construction vehicles, and threatening sexual assault against the wife of a company representative. The racketeering case was first filed in 2008.
According to court papers, the executive who was stabbed in the neck asked a union organizer what benefit he would get if he hired members of the union. "You guys slash my tires, stab me in the neck, try to beat me up," he protested. "What are the positives?"
   "The positives," reportedly replied the organizer, "are that the negatives you are complaining about would go away."
At the time of the indictment, then-U.S. Attorney Terrance P. Flynn said Local 17 had victimized construction sites large and small. "We believe they had a negative financial impact on almost every major construction project in Western New York." Today Flynn, in private practice at law firm Harris Beach, tells ABC News he still considers the case to be "a very important investigation." A dozen union officials stand accused of extortion and labor racketeering."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  Sure makes one want to shower unions with love..doesn't it !            
         

[ironglow]

  In Wisconsin, as in many other states, the public employee unions are the biggest single reason states are going broke! 
 

That's just bull pucky.

The single biggest reason the states are going broke is they continue to give huge tax breaks (loss in state revenue) to corporations , and receive nothing in return.  No Jobs  -  less tax payers. Then to add insult to injury state legislators scream budget crisis (of their own makings), then attack the middle class to make up for the budget shortfalls.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  How about answering for the union thugs tha FBI has indicted ...and quit playing "class warfare"..
 
  How are they any different from the original Mafia ?

[ironglow]

  So, look at this article and map..then tell us why 'forced-union" states are failing and the "right-to-work" states are doing much better, and by & large are much closer to solvent than the forced-union ones..
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2012/02/02/a-former-union-thugs-take-on-right-to-work-whats-right-whats-not/
 
       

[Buckskin]

Unfortunately or fortunately, whichever way you want to look at it.  Liberals are a one trick pony " they continue to give huge tax breaks (loss in state revenue) to corporations", that is class warefare. It's the only play they have.  Make everyone hate those that are successful, even those are the ones producing the jobs...  Funny when union people especially public unions about how bad the pay is and how much more they could be making in private industry.  Well, what the hell is stopping you!  Aside that you would be held accountable for your work...   
 
 
Liberals never answer questions with logical answers, just regurgitate what is fed to them by their unions.  Most time they don't even answer the questions...

[ironglow]

  For anybody here, just do a google search for..  labor union executives indicted ..and see what you find, I found hundreds..
  Then I googled.. Non union executives indicted .... and what did I get... more indictments of union thugs !
 
     Here's more on the local #17 thing:   http://www.nrtw.org/blog/union-thugs-indicted-targeting-non-union-workers
 
 
  Check out this excerpt;
 
     
 " The indictment accuses Local 17 leaders and members of dozens of threats and instances of vandalism and harassment against non-union workers and contractors. At times, members of other unions were also targeted.
Much of the activity took place at major publicly funded construction projects, including the expansion of Roswell Park Cancer Institute and renovations at Ralph Wilson Stadium, Buffalo State College and the Buffalo Sewer Authority’s treatment plant on Bird Island, prosecutors said.
One of the disturbing aspects to the case, in Flynn’s view, is that members of the local repeatedly used the Web site of the state Department of Motor Vehicles to find out the addresses of people they intended to harass.
Union members went to construction sites and took photos of the license plates of vehicles used by construction company executives or non-union workers, Flynn said.
“Then, they would use that information to find out where these people lived, and where their families lived,” Flynn said. “They would then make threats against people, mentioning their home addresses."
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
    C'mon union loyalists.. doesn't that make your chest swell with pride .......

[Casull]

The single biggest reason the states are going broke is they continue to give huge tax breaks (loss in state revenue) to corporations ,

 
 
Now, there is the pure bull pucky.  Try taking a look at actual numbers.  Now, if those evil corporations did not get the breaks and left the state, exactly how much would that bring in?  Liberals, sheeesh.

[gunny4]

Lets see we bargained in good faith and the company that owned us cut my wages by $4.00 per hour . Basically if you wanted your job you took the pay cut. Okay fine we lumped it and went to work ,not for long next thing they did was quit paying there bills the local thrift shop , the trucking companies that hauled our freight , the chemical companies that supplied material the list goes on and on. Until the court order to cease and desist came . Then we were notified of the bankruptcy. As this whole debacle unfolded it became clear this was done by design,they filed bankruptcy and walked away stiffing dozens of businesses for millions of dollars. These people have no conscious. They reformed in Ohio with 100 million investment from a hedge fund and took our orders with a no compete clause that prevented us from making that product.That's when it became clear  it was a hostile take over and they no intention of running our facility. In retrospect they wanted us to strike, it would have made so much easier to go into bankruptcy. The point I'm trying to make is you bet there are crooked union bosses ,and i know all to well there are crooked cor perate owners as well. We agreed to the cuts to keep the business viable we did,nt know there were ulterior motives . Is it to much to ask to be treated fairly? We bargained in good faith for our pension come to find out it was under funded now we get penny.s on the dollar. The people that perpetrated this on us in my opinion ought to be in jail ,they lied to us ! That was 7 years ago, guess what that same company that received 100 million is now bankrupt and shut again. They were flat out crooks.  Theres crooks in unions as well as cor perate America   

[Buckskin]

Hey, I feel for you Gunny.... Nobody deserves that, and it's probably that that company had structural issues that could not be saved.  So what does that mean? We should all be against all corporations?

[gunny4]

No , but i think when anybody enters into a contract with whom ever both parties need to hold up there end of the bargin.

[scootrd]

No , but i think when anybody enters into a contract with whom ever both parties need to hold up there end of the bargin.

Yep !!!

Semper Fi

Just look at the Airlines how they have treated Pilots and their Pensions over the years. For years Pilots have given and given and given taken pay cuts , reduced pensions, etc.. They entered contracts in good faith to help keep the airline businesses afloat. And each year they get stiffed more. Though I agree unions are only as good as those running them and corruption can be anywhere (absolute power corrupts absolutely) For the most part it's not the unions that break the contracts after they are agreed too. It's the corporations. 

Anyone can cite specific incidents to bolster their specific points of view. Anyone remember ENRON.

I have no respect for Walker , stripping collective bargaining is a cowards way out of actually governing. At least Christe has the nuts to govern and is not afraid to come to the collective bargaining table and hammer it out. Which is what a real , true governor does. Corporate tax breaks balanced on the backs of middle class gaining nothing in return for the working stiff or the  state is not class warfare , it's corporate welfare. Quid pro Quo

Jeff Dunham should add a new ventriloquist Dummy to his Act  -  Gov Walker corporate Puppet Boy

[Buckskin]

No , but i think when anybody enters into a contract with whom ever both parties need to hold up there end of the bargin.

 
Well that would be tough if going bankrupt... 

[gunny4]

These people were arrogant sob,s they would brag about there expertise in running the business, when in all reality they were making really poor decisions on running the business they were not happy just cutting wages they made bone head decisions which affected the quality of the product. End result is the customers were not happy with poor quality! There management stile was to berate and intimidate the hourly and salaried . I witnessed salaried scared shitless for fear of losing there jobs . The CEO would literally go berserk , one incident i was privy to the CEO went nuts on miss information . I personal watched him rip into this guy and days later found there was no basis for him to do that. The allegations were false,i asked him if the CEO apologized ,he said no. The fear factor was undeniable ,if a manager had a problem he would dread the the thought of dealing with him. Thinking about now how these guys kept there positions amazed me. They came in from Ohio were they shut a mill down there,then our mill was next, then back to Ohio to shut yet another down. Our mill is running again no thanks to them.In my opinion the bankruptcy was by design not discounting there ineptness at manageing

[Buckskin]

I assume you’re talking pulp mill, which is a tough business these days. My wife is from Wisconsin Rapids and worked at the mill in the summers back in the early 90's, college roommate worked at the one in Merrill (I think) a little earlier. They both have told me stories of the massive amounts of money that they were paid. That worked at the mill in the summers back in the early 90's, college roommate worked at the one in Merrill (I think) a little earlier. They both have told me stories of the massive amounts of money that they were paid. That was the good old days of paper, likely never to be seen again. Good thing is that most of the ones that have made it will likely stay above water and hopefully be profitable again so the workers can make a decent living. was the good old days of paper, likely never to be seen again. Good thing is that most of the ones that have made it will likely stay above water and hopefully be profitable again so the workers can make a decent living.
 
All management isn't evil and it's not workers against the corporate world. That is the mentality that is taught by the unions and sometimes that aggressive technique ends up hurting the workers because. Workers get pissed and picket or slow down production, management gets pissed because of that, profits slide because nothing is getting done, threats pop up from both sides. No good for anybody.
 
Those things very rarely happen on the non-union side. Everyone is judge as an individual and paid at merit, not scale. Good workers are paid more, happier and more productive, average workers don't get paid as much, poor workers are shown the door... You guys work in the union atmosphere, tell me there isn't a negative mentality throughout the workforce. May be a combination of things, but the root of it is because of the union bosses telling you to be negative and that you're getting screwed. And where are they when a plant is shutdown and moved to Kentucky? They have their feet up on a desk sipping bourbon from said state without a care in the world...
 
 And on the public side.... Oh man it's even worse!!! Nobody watching the bottom line because there is no profit, no incentive to be productive, and decades of waste. Why do you think there are so many jokes about working for the government??? I could tell you stories that would make even a union guys head spin about the waste that occurs in this state. I'll give you one. My buddies wife is a parole officer, a supervisor retired with full beni's and she was promoted to his job and took over his case load. She found out very quickly that this guy just took up space, never did anything. All of his parolee's hadn't been contacted, some for years. This is in Milwaukee, real criminal - murders, rapists, drug dealer, etc with no supervision whatsoever. She reported this to her supervisor and he shrugged his shoulders, "nothing I can do about it"... I could give you a bunch more on the DOT side too... And the left wonders why we want some accountability and restructuring in the public unions. It's been a free ride too long.

[gunny4]

Buckskin  the experience you describe is definitely not what i have experienced in my over 35 years of being in a union . You talk about the huge amounts of money paid to your friends? Well i don,t know what that is. I do know the pay scale of our papermill was considerably less than surrounding mills, which did not make me any happier. You see not all unions are as you describe. All i can do is go from my personnel experience, because i have not worked for every union. I hear people making claims of dead beats being protected by the unions, where i work the coworkers would  not put up with it , over the years i have seen people come and go . The people that want to work end up staying and the ones that don,t end up getting let go, its just that simple. This mill has changed hands over the years a number of times,some owners were responsible some just did,nt give a crap, some put money back into the business some never spent a dime and sucked every nickle out of it they could. And for the union telling me how to think,i make up my own mind based on the facts. I don,t agree with everything the union does, but that's okay because ill take the union any day you see i have seen supervisors place personalities before principles and when that happens those who are the on the receiving end need the protection that you don,nt have without a union.     

[Buckskin]

I believe what you say. But also have seen the other side of it.  We had a job east of St. Louis and hired a non-union excavating company, they HAD to have a union rep on site.  That guy, a young black (not that that has anything to do with it, but that's what he was) kid (nice guy, though) who knew nothing about excavating or what we were doing for that matter and admitted it... Stood around, not even watching what we were doing, but made us take union breaks and we couldn't work over 8 hour shifts!    Also had a union rep stop by a different site west of Chicago and give me greif because I had a generator on site and no union electrician! I told him to bite me and he threatened to picket me. I told him if they had nothing better to do to go for it.  That is the union crap that makes people boil.
 
What you described is the difference between private unions and public unions.  At least with private unions there is at least some accountability, especially in an industry that produces a product like paper.  They have to make enough paper to stay afloat.  The building trades is a whole nother mess. Coruption abounds with price fixing, inflated bids, etc especially in government bids.  But public unions have no accountability as I've stated before, they are just a drag on the economy producing nothing and wasting much.  If the government unions were run like your paper mill union we likely would be in much better shape.  Private unions need to make the correct decisions or they will go bankrupt, public unions make poor decisions and they ask for higher taxes next year to make up for it...

[gunny4]

I hear you, it does boil down to accountability.