Author Topic: Whice one??? (Read 1491 times)

ihuntbucks · « **on:** January 03, 2004, 07:01:14 PM »

I thought I would all the learned folks here a question.Iam in the market for another rifle.A lever action,probable Marlin.Which cal would ya'll suggest between, .450, 45/70, 444.I probably will only hunt southern whitetails and hawgs with it.Any help would be most apperciated. Rick

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2004, 08:02:18 PM »

.45-70. Better selection of bullets if you are a reloader and better selection of factory loads if you aren't. I figure the .450 Marlin is a gonner in a few more years. Does nothing the .45-70 won't do and the case is an odd ball. If factory ammo is discontinued there will be no source for brass.

GB

old06 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:31:07 AM »

Yep what Graybeard said but I do have a soft spot for the 444. It and the 45-70 are more alike than differ. Its beenwith us since 62 and will be here for many many years so if you run across a good deal on one junp on it ammo good and its out there it handloads just as well. So dont pass on that one. :-D

WD45 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:43:29 AM »

All three will sure do the trick for white tails... My opinion / preference is the 45-70. Brass is easy to get . Easy to find factory loads and an entire truck load of different bullet / powder combo's to choose from if you reload yer own.

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2004, 01:58:32 AM »

I would also go with the 45-70. Though bullet selection is getting better with the 444, the 45-70 can go from very light to very heavy. I like the 420gr for just about everything. It will travel through an elk like a hot knife through butter, and make short work of those hogs. Sure it's overkill on deer, but what the heck...it's fun to shoot!

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2004, 08:44:29 AM »

One one hand I have to agree with Greybeard, he speaks the truth but I also have to agree with Bob/Fla and the Old06. I suppose that if you want just another lever action that is neither difficult or a challenge to shoot, then you might just as well get the 45-70. It will do anything the 450 Marlin will do, so the choice between those two cartridges is easy to make. One the other hand, you also mentioned the 444, my favorite.

You didn't say whether you reload - that's where the 444 can come to the fore (no joke). What you can handload to in the 444 would hurt you in the 45-70, but I won't advocate taking on a project to learn a new caliber unless you are up to and into that fun part of shooting and hunting.

And, of course, since you mentioned the Marlin, then I will have to recommend the 1985 CB for its light weight, ease of carry and handling (I kin tellya alla that 'cause I played with one this weekend). Notice I said 'ease of handling' - it's a dang good field piece. I compared the 26" Marlin to a custom 26" 94AE and found the Marlin running at about 7 lbs, scope and all (unloaded). And, with a good scope, they are murderously accurate. So, there ya go. HTH. Mikey.

Lawdog · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »

I hate to disagree with Graybeard(sorry for this chief

) but they are chambering more and more rifles all the time for the .450 Marlin. The case is thicker than the .45-70 and the cartridge works better in bolt action rifles than the .45-70 does(the rim on the .45-70. tends to hang up if care isn't used during the loading of a box type magazine). A BLR in .450 Marlin is a great rifle/cartridge combo that lets you use pointed/spitzer type bullets that really bring out the merits of the Marlin round. Sisk and Clark are now making custom rifles for the Marlin and Winchester chambers their M70 for it and Ruger is considering chambering their M77 and No.1 for the .450 Marlin. The .450 Marlin a goner in a few years, I do not think so. It's just now getting started. Lawdog

BoarHunter · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2004, 09:11:02 PM »

Also I got pretty good results with the 444 loaded with FPJ Sierra 250 (yes it is for silhouette but it still expands and penetrate better than the Hornady 265).
Unfortunatly it still does not pass through all the time. Shot a 80kg sow in the liver and the bullet did not go through (some 300Win Mg failed also if they expand too much). Interest in a bullet that passes through is the blood trail as the fat often closes the entrance wound.
I am looking to try the Nosler partition 44 250 but expansion is too violent because of the hollow point. I can't get hold of an email address for Nosler (just regular address on their site), I would like to inquire if they could produce their 44 partition without the hollow, it would not be difficult and would even increase slightly the weight. If we are a few people asking for it, they may be interested ? This bullet could be a winner for the 444, combining good expansion and full penetration with a bullet that is not too slow either. Any idea ?

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2004, 04:56:25 AM »

Nosler is one of those companies that doesn't accept e-mail. You'll have to use regular snail mail or telephone.

Quote

I hate to disagree with Graybeard(sorry for this chief ) but they are chambering more and more rifles all the time for the .450 Marlin.

Hey that's allowed. I guess only time will tell on this one. I just don't see it surviving. Except for bolt actions there is just no advantage it has over the old .45-70 which is now at the height of its popularity after well over 100 years of existance. Stronger brass is not a problem with the current .45-70 cases so is a non issue really. I just don't see many people buying a bolt action in it and spitzers offer nothing. That more efficient design only comes into play after 250 yards and the low velocity of either really rules out effective use on game at such distances. Run the numbers some time on RN, FN and Spitzer bullets of same weight and caliber. To 250 yards you'll be lucky to see an inch at 250 difference in trajectory.

GB

Mikey · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2004, 05:05:59 AM »

If you're not gettng satisfactory results in your 444 with the 250 or 265 gn jacketed bullets, try the 300 gn flatnose gas check from LBT. You load them with the same powder charges you load the 300 gn jacketed slugs. I have found them very accurate in my 444s and when loaded to 2100'/sec or better (I get better than that with a long barrel), you won't have to worry about either chasing them very far or not finding a blood trail. HTH. Mikey.

BoarHunter · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2004, 07:18:58 AM »

The problem I see with 300g bullet is that they are too slow, I do not want to go below 680m/s and my current load is at 700m/s, besides their BC is not that great because of the too big meplat.
I will try to fill up the Nosler partition hole with lead and look forward to find a boar willing to be the test medium. 2 months left for hunting them this side of the atlantic.

WD45 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2004, 07:19:38 AM »

The biggest advantage to the 450 marlin...
You cant stuff a hot load in an older gun that wont take the pressure by mistake .... It wont chamber in a 45-70. There are a lot of older guns out there and not everybody understands this. It gives the factory ammo makers the the ability to push the 45-70 to its modern capabilities without the liability worry. Will it be around in a few years... Probably a good subject for another thread

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2004, 09:34:59 AM »

Thanks guys for all the info.No,I do not reload.Iam.I think, leaning towards the 45/70.......maybe :grin: Was wondering on recoil.Should it kick any more than my .300 WSM,which is way to damn light.You shoot it 5 or 6 times in a row and it will punish you.I'm 6' 2-1/2" and weight 270 lbs. and the damn thing kicks my ass.I like it,but if you're not shooting at game it's not much fun to shoot.In other words,you won't be praticeing with it very much. Rick

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2004, 05:01:03 PM »

Size don't matter Rick. Some wormy little 98 pound guys and gals can handle way more recoil than big guys. It's really all about a person's recoil tolerance level.

I agree a light .300 mag like an R700 Mtn. Rifle I had in the caliber kicks my teeth loose. Wicked. But a hot loaded .45-70 will jar you with the best of them.

GB

BoarHunter · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2004, 09:01:56 PM »

It is in fact a matter of physic. The little guy or galls will offer less mass and therefore will recoil with the gun. My daughter found funny the recoill of my light Win 94 with full 444M load. This when standing of course. In prone or crouch, ouch!
In hunting situation, recoil is less perceived too. Besides you don't empty a box of ammo in a couple of minutes.

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2004, 10:22:04 PM »

BoarHunter...I guess I need to go on a diet :lol: Never thought of it that way;makes sense. Rick

WD45 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2004, 01:03:25 AM »

May I suggest starting to load your own. Which can be as addictive as lever guns :shock: You can load that 45-70 from fun to shoot pipsqueak loads to rhino / dentist loads ( dentist loads are the ones that you have to have your teeth wired back together after 3 to 4 shots )
Different guns and different style but plates will transfer recoil differently.
Cresent style but plates hurt more so stay away from them if recoil is a concern...... It is definately more fun to have a gun that you can shoot a lot with without being black and blue for a week but have the serious power available when it needs to be. If at all possible try a couple of different ones and see which one feels better and how they recoil.

Perferator · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2004, 10:36:14 AM »

Quote from: WD45

May I suggest starting to load your own. Which can be as addictive as lever guns :shock: You can load that 45-70 from fun to shoot pipsqueak loads to rhino / dentist loads ( dentist loads are the ones that you have to have your teeth wired back together after 3 to 4 shots )
Different guns and different style but plates will transfer recoil differently.
Cresent style but plates hurt more so stay away from them if recoil is a concern...... It is definately more fun to have a gun that you can shoot a lot with without being black and blue for a week but have the serious power available when it needs to be. If at all possible try a couple of different ones and see which one feels better and how they recoil.

Right on! This is exactly why I bought the 45-70 guide gun. At first I wanted the .450 but after much reading through the pros/cons I decided to take the 45-70. I figured on waiting a couple of years to learn how to reload. Pffffft. First time I went to buy ammo I coudnt find any. By time I ordered or drove PLUS the cost of the components I just picked up the stuff, went to the library to study, read some good research on the internet....then went to my friend (read, coach) for help, instruction and equip. The part of this I love the best is being able to load up to field artillery specs :eek:

Perferator

Yanqui · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2004, 04:02:39 AM »

Quote from: ihuntbucks

I thought I would all the learned folks here a question.Iam in the market for another rifle.A lever action,probable Marlin.Which cal would ya'll suggest between, .450, 45/70, 444.I probably will only hunt southern whitetails and hawgs with it.Any help would be most apperciated. Rick

When in doubt, simple. Buy all three. :-)

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2004, 06:55:12 PM »

Buy all three....that thought did cross my mind.But what really bothers me about the whole now is ammo.I was at "Wally World" yesterday before going to work and was looking at the guns.I ask to see some .45/70 rounds....notta.The lady behind the counter said that must be a new one out that they didn't have yet.I said that round is older than you and I put toghter.So,how about .444.......notta.I didn't even bother to ask for .450.Sam would roll-over in his grave :wink: Rick

Yanqui · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2004, 01:00:12 AM »

Do you have a Popular Surplus store? Now called just Popular. Surprisingly they carry a variety of ammunition.

But you can get better deals at gunshows if they are allowed in your area. Another route is mail order. There are many businesses that cater just to ammunition.

You can also try some of the gun auction sites, classifieds, Shotgun News and the GunList for sellers of ammunition. And also check on some gun dealers in or around your area. You might find one or two that do not charge to much. Some hardware and livestock supply stores carry ammunition.

But on another point. I would consider the 444 more abundant than the 45-70 and the 450 very rare to find other than a gunshop. So you are out hunting. For some reason (?) you need a resupply of ammuntion. Which caliber will you most likely find?

So best bet. Do a lot of reloading.

Or you can order from one of the sponsors to this site. Just click on the banners. They help pay for our reading and posting pleasure.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2004, 09:11:19 AM »

A little note on recoil. The big guy suffers more but when sighting in no one needs to suffer. Years ago when new to gunsmithing I was asked by an old time smith(mentor) to go to the range to sight in a few deer rifles he'd just scoped. Most were marlin 30-30's. He immediately whipped out a 'sissy' bag. A bad of sand that he used between the butt and his shoulder. When asked if I wanted one I demurred.. Young isn't stupid, just uneducated. After a good many rounds and the better part of a day, I asked for the bag.. EVERYBODY has a recoil limit and recoil IS cumulative!! Those 30-30s taught me a valuable lesson. I regularly use cheaters to reuce recoil when shooting larger numbers of heavy recoiling rounds. The one I use is homemade and consists of 2 small flat bags connected at the top and the rear. It uses a nylon cord affixed to the front to keep the tension on the rear connector. It caps the butt of the rifle and the 6 or so pounds of lead shot in the bags, in essence add their weight to the rifle.. Will turn the lightest 6 1/2 pound sporter into a 12 pound bench gun. Fun to shoot!! Really helpful when working up a new load.

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2004, 05:22:46 PM »

No Popular Surplus(never heard of it).We do have several army surplus stores in area;I'm sure they can help me out.Thanks for info guys.Am going up top and check out sponsor banners right now. Rivk

Perferator · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:09:08 AM »

Quote from: ihuntbucks

No Popular Surplus(never heard of it).We do have several army surplus stores in area;I'm sure they can help me out.Thanks for info guys.Am going up top and check out sponsor banners right now. Rivk

You can also try the small town/local Co-ops. These are the places the rural's frequent for all kinds of farming needs....many also sell ammo brands and types you cant find elsewhere.

Perferator

WD45 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2004, 02:06:53 AM »

You cant even find 45 LC at walmart :x
Try places like Dicks sporting goods. They will have all three. Even If you go to a local gunshop they will not have a very good selection of loads.
Although these rounds have been around a long time people will only stock what they can move off the shelf quickest for the most part.
AND THAT is why a lot of people are driven to load their own.
The bare min equipment to load your own will cost about as much as 6 boxes of factory ammo. Now If you shoot much at all you can go through 6 boxes off ammo right quick unless you only hunt with it and the rest of the year it sets in the closet. In that case 6 boxes of ammo will last the rest of your life :-)