READ The Second After

[jlwilliams]

Has there EVER been an EMP experiment, of any level or size, which disabled ANY electronic device?   Or is it just a hypothetical posibility based on some scientific theory?

  That is an excellent question.
 
  Electronics have changed a lot in the time since nuclear meapons testing ended.  I believe that I read that there have been small scale tests.  Those results make a big event seem pretty bad.  There is also some evidence to point to the hype being bigger than the likely outcome.  I don't have all that linked where I can put it up here.  The long and the short of what I've read is that it's really atill an open question just how bad it will be, but yes it is a real threat. 
 
  I 100% agree with always asking "Is this real or just another theory?"  That is always a viable and valuable question.  I point to the Popular Science cover story from the mid '70s predicting an ice age by 1990.   For those who may not remember the '90s, there was in fact... no ice age.

[SHOOTALL]

EMP can be produced with other than nukes , there are planes that can do it .

[teddy12b]

If EMP strikes were simply a tin foil hat theory then I doubt Newt Gingrich would have had his little part in the book.  The EMP strike is America's Achilies heel and I hope this never happens.
 
Yes I read it, (listened to it on CD's).  This book really brought back memories.  While I was overseas I was there just before the poo hit the fan in the sandbox and I was on a lot of convoys throughout a large part of Iraq.  I saw first hand what happens when people loose utilities that they were relying on and the rule of law goes out the window.  While I was there I kept a journal, but this book does a much better job of explaining what happens when the grid goes down than I ever could.
 
An amazing side note about this book is just how accurate it really is with the local geography too.  It's incredible how accurate it is.  I have loaned out my book on CD to many people and bought two more paper back copies to loan out in addition to the CD's.   I think this book is important to get people to wake up and realize how much we all really depend on the grid staying up.  Everytime I go through a fast food restraunt I keep thinking about how much I'll miss burgers and fries if something like that book happens. 
 
After reading the book, I've stocked up on MRE's (armygear.net has the best deal for full real MRE's) and superpails (5 gallon buckets of food from beprepared.com).  As far as water goes, I've bought some of those blue 7 gallong water jugs for camping and have them filled; there's a thing out there called a "waterbob" for $20 and it's a great way to get 100 gallons of potable water if you have warning ahead of time and two katadyn water filters.  As far as medicine goes, there are a lot of good articles about using fish meds in place of human meds if you have to.  For instance you can get fish-mox and it's basically amoxicillan.  That's a small sample of my preparations leaving out the obvious guns and ammo that I have.
 
Patriots was also a great book.  I thought the way that book gets started with a financial collapse instead of an EMP strike sounded a lot more reasonable and more likely.  Comparing the two books, they both had their good and bad points, but for the average person out there I think One Second After is going to be a much more understandable read.  Patriots gets a little bit to technical in the military gear at times for the untrained reader to be able to follow along.
 
On a positive note, if we ever get hit with an EMP eveyone's going to go on an all organic diet, quit smoking, and loose some weight (whether you like it or not).

[SHOOTALL]

When we hear that communications have been taken out its not all rockets and bombs

[jcn59]

It seems to me that the central concern for us is not EMP or how or what happened in the book, but that the transportation grid collapsed.   Food stocks & medicines could not be redistributed from the various places where they were grown or imported to the public as needed, causing mass starvation.  The lack of refrigeration was an issue also.  As food became scarce, and people starved, self defense became an issue.
 
We've lived without utilities and patented medicines before.  Today there are too many with insufficient assets, (mental, emotional and motivation) to make it on their own.  When the government is no longer able to keep them alive (remember Katrina), they will try to steal from those of us who have taken adequate steps to prepare themselves.  They won't offer up anything in exchange for what they need from us.  I think the book outlined that well enough.
 
Addendum:  What will happen to our transportation grid if our eastern oil supply is substantially interrupted.   Who will get the rationing tickets?  Congress?

[SHOOTALL]

I think you are correct. I think the die offs may be correct also. Something else is people born say before WW2 seem to live longer and have less ailments than many younger . Maybe they grew up hard and the modern conviences allowed them a longer life where those comming later never got tuff but always lived a easy fatting life.

[teddy12b]

When we hear that communications have been taken out its not all rockets and bombs

The whole point of the book is that you won't "hear" that communications have been taken out.  Everything will just have come to a stand still.

[teddy12b]

I think you are correct. I think the die offs may be correct also. Something else is people born say before WW2 seem to live longer and have less ailments than many younger . Maybe they grew up hard and the modern conviences allowed them a longer life where those comming later never got tuff but always lived a easy fatting life.

I think that's a reasonably fair statement.  Keep in mind the WWII generation grew up on organic food and not all this toxic store bought crap wrapped in plastic.  Also, the WWII generation is the first generation to be able to use air conditioning in their later years.  Those two things go a long way towards people having a long healthy life.  If the One Second After poo hits the fan people will either toughen up or die.  Just like boot camp/basic training, in a matter of a few weeks lifestyles will change and people will harden up more than they ever thought possible.

[Lost Farmboy]

  My internet was out for a day. This thread really took off to a great discussion.


I think maybe get a cheap metal gun cabinet. (you need one anyway ) Line the inside with a heavy insulation. Keep it in a basement if possible. Pound a long copper rod into the ground and run a good grounding strap to the gun cabinet. It should shield electronics from EMP. Store things like CB radios and an extra set of electronics for your vehicles. Maybe that Harbor Freight solar collector kit. An infrared video camera in one hand and a gun in the other would give you an advantage defending you house against intruders in the night.

[SHOOTALL]

make sure holes for elec. cords to dehumi are sealed

[Lost Farmboy]

Nope... modern wind generators have all the small parts and circuit boards for contollers that could/would get fried too.  Inverters are the same.  Best to look into OLD engines with no electronics and mechanical wind mills.
 
NGH

 
I was thinking of making my own wind mill. Using an old auto alternator, voltage regulator and marine batteries.

[reliquary]

Under the forum "Self Sustainable Living" there was a good discussion (last fall?) about building windmills for power generation.  Try Motor for Windmill, on the second page of the forum.

[SHOOTALL]

Back to the book , we see one community and how it reacted . We also get bits and peices of how other places reacted . We don't know where we will be if such a time comes . We also don't know how others in our location will react . In the book there seemed to be enough of most things in the nick of time . That may very well not be the case. It will be a time where your investments may mean life or death. You invest time with the wrong group and it could spell doom. Starving people tend to lose sense of right and wrong and turn on each other . I hope we avoid such a time and human condition.

[no guns here]

Pretty good book checked it out yesterday evening, finished it this morning.  Lots of stuff in there to think about.  Food, water, refrigeration, power, medicine, guns, defense, fuel, heat etc.  Seemed like a bit contrived for the set up but then again, it is a book of fiction.  Perhaps a different town with a less defensible position and less access to water.  What would they do?  Would they have to go on the offensive to get water/food/etc?
 
NGH

[SHOOTALL]

Better be ready for anything and everything , a large task to be sure.

[mannyrock]

 
  Did you guys not read the novel called War Day, written by Whitely Streiber, in 1984?   It covered much of the same thing. The premise of the book is that America has got into a nuclear war, and won, and out of the hundreds of nukes launched against it, only 4 or 5 hit the country.  Can't remember which areas, but I think Los Angeles, Dallas, Washington D.C., New York City, and Chicago.
 
   No other areas were hit, but these hits bring the entire country to its knees, and it can't survive without massive assistance (spell that permanent invasion) from its allies, including Japan (who occupies California) and Canada (who seizes Alaska, in order to "secure" any nuclear weapons there.)
 
  The novel is written in the form of a journal by a newspaper reporter, who travels around the entire country in the aftermath, to document what he sees.  Lots of discussion of the effects of EMP.
 
   The EMP factor is absolutely nothing new.  It has been discussed for decades.  Federal Regulations require all banks that are members of the federal reserve to have their main computers shield by several inches of lead casing, for the specific purpose of protection against EMP.
 
  And, of course, and even better book is Alas Babylon, written in the early 1960s.  Story of a small Florida town trying to survive in the aftermath.  Lots of very useful information.  (A broken down, lazy, semi-alcoholic young man, who is a second lieutenant in the army reserves, is forced to grow up fast and take charge of everything when the last act of the President is to declare martial law.  In short, he is all the law that there is. )  The layers of die-off are well covered.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
Regards, Mannyrock

[JeffDavis]

JLWilliams,
 
If you are still willing, I would take you up on your offer of your copy of "The Second After", I have sent you a PM with my mailing address.
 
Thank you.
Jeff

[jlwilliams]

Jeff,
 
  You bet. 
 
Jason

[jcn59]

I enjoyed the book & it certainly kept my interest.  In terms of credibility, the author certainly knows more about EMP than I do.  In terms of weaponry, I think I am a better authority, and probably you are too.  Raise your hand if you are familiar with the smell of "Cordite".  I don't think it has been used in my lifetime.  There were one or two "strange" references.
 
Also, I thought the author implied that there would be some psychotic or insane people running around after they ran out of Prozac.  Won't happen.  Maybe if they ran out of Prolixin or certain other antipsychotics, but not Prozac.
 
I am not implying that the book had no credibility, just that it was written by a man not too different than the rest of us.

[reliquary]

Good point about "cordite".  Lots of writers use that as a generic word for "powder smoke".  Have you noticed that a lot of popular authors have very little experience with weapons?
 
An older book, good reading,  is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle...comet hits us and TEOTWAWKI happens.  Again, the good guys just happen to have a defensible area and come through in the end.  It also winds up with the bad guys practicing cannibalism.  Maybe that's a "given"?  It really hits having to scavenge and scrounge for supplies...especially ammo & relaoding components...and is notable for the good guys making thermite and poison gas...Survival Chemistry 101. 
 
A hokey series by William Johnstone, "Out of the Ashes"...every book had "Ashes" in the title...had some good ideas.
 
All the books I've read consider banding together as communities or quasi-military units as essential to survival. 

[jlwilliams]

  People on Prozac, that exact drug, aren't going to nessisarily be looney tunes if their supply runs dry.  There will, however, be lots of people who are irratic without their various meds.  I took the reference to Prozac not so much as a reference to that drug but as a brand name reference meant to imply all the psycotropics that are so freely prescribed today.
 
  Without access to modern pharmaceuticals there would be die offs and all sorts of ugly situations.  How many of us know someone who would die if the pahrmacy closed down for keeps?  I know I do.
 
  The cordite reference is also. in my opinion, meant to create a mental image that readers will get.  Most people don't know that cordite has been out of use for generations.  Most people do know that when they read about a 'wiff of cordite' that they are reading about the smell of gunfighting.  Not a truly accurate use of words but more of a 'literary instrument'.   
 
  I find reading and watching TV is easier if you let go of the petty 'that's not right'.  It's called 'suspension of disbelief' and you can't enjoy a James Bond movie or a Disney classic without it.

[blind ear]

 

I find reading and watching TV is easier if you let go of the petty 'that's not right'.  It's called 'suspension of disbelief' and you can't enjoy a James Bond movie or a Disney classic without it.

 
That is why I don't watch many movies or TV programs. A person has to switch thier mind set not just to fantacy, but all the way to delusion for the shows to be interesting. ear

[jcn59]

Nonetheless, it made a difference to me.   Those errors detracted an itty-bitty-bit from the read, and brought me back to the reality that this was fiction.  Most people don't know what cordite is, and SSRI medications don't make people crazy when they stop taking them.
 
I guess if I said you should fill your .38 special cases to the brim with Bullseye and put a heavy crimp on the 200 grain bullet,  most people here would not assume that I was merely suggesting that you use a heavy load in your model 10.   They would tell me that I made a mistake, or that I didn't know what I was talking about.
 
Accuracy and accountability are always important.
 
 

[Lost Farmboy]

  The author touched on many possibilities. It is important for us to point out and discuss what we believe to be right and wrong. Some skills discussed apply to all EOTWAWKI situations. Electronics especially concerning communications and transportation relate mostly to EMP.


I think in a mountain setting like in the book there would be a lot of old farm tractors from the 50s and 60s. On the large corporate farms almost all equipment would be new. I think I would rather get an old farm tractor for a possible EMP attack than an old car.

[reliquary]

JLWILLIAMS:
 
My main concern is the medications, or lack thereof, for my wife.  As I've mentioned in other posts, she's an insulin-dependent diabetic with all the associated systemic disorders...bad heart, HBP, neuropathy, bad circulation; you name it, she's working on it.  So that's why I'm trying to set up some kind of long-term storage for her meds and trying to have enough on hand for her to last a while.
 
It's impossible to be prepared for every emergency; I've got a lot of essentials stored and the rest on a "short list" for the last minute, plus enough trade items to get by with in a barter economy.  I've talked some doctors into giving us "samples" to keep on hand, as well as her regular prescriptions.  We get the prescriptions, 90 days worth at a time, through mail order, but they can also be filled at local Wal-Marts "last minute" if need be. 

[jcn59]

My wife & I are fortunate enough to just need hypertension meds.   I wouldn't bet we would die if we didn't have them.  In northern Wisconsin we don't have refrigeration issues for at least 6 months a year, & we could cut ice for summer use like our grandfathers did.  Plenty of wood here for heat but would need some way to utilize it.  I don't think we would have the starvation issues here that warm climate metro areas would have.   Most of the population here is armed.  Lots of pre computer John Deeres, Alis Chalmers, Internationals, & old logging equipment here.  We probably wouldn't have to sweat the petty stuff like others would if SHTF.

[Lost Farmboy]

 

A few weeks into the power outage and a lot of people stopped bathing. Some because of no water. Some because the water was cold. Many had no soap.


I have a solar shower in my BOB. Can't live with my wife if she doesn't get her shower every day. She gets really mean when she's not clean. We make our own soap. She sells it almost as fast as she makes it. But we always have a lot of supplies to make more.


What plans do you have for soap and showers? I think a bottle of dish soap would go a long way in a pinch. A few drops in a pint of water would be good liquid soap for bathing. Soap would be a good barter item. It last a long time and would be a good thing to stock up on.

[blind ear]

I read One Secound After. It is too full of blunt harsh realities to be "fun" reading. It made me cry. I think it should be mandatory reading for all of our school systems, congressmen and every parent. Like that would ever happen.
 
 It was interesting enough to keep me into it until I finished it. I read at about 1/3 normal average speed and I got it read in three nights and a couple of hours extra. ear
 
An EMP article that TeamNelson posted

http://silverbearcafe.com/private/07.09/onesecondafter.html

excellent article on emp ... great for planning.

Make a drug screen mandatory for congress.

+1 And I would add anyone that get's public assistance. ear

[mannyrock]

 
  A lady in our office in Memphis was raised on a very very rural farm in North Mississippi, where the only water they had was rainwater that was funnelled into a cistern from the roof.
 
  She said that in the late spring, summer, and early fall, to take a bath, they just had a cast iron bath tub on the back porch, in the sun, facing south. They would fill it up with water, from buckets, at about 10 in the morning, and by 2 in the afternoon, it was near scalding.  Then you just stripped naked and took your bath.  They only bathed once a week, generally on Saturday afternoon.
 
  She did not admit to having multiple people use the same bath water, but I'll bet that's what they did.
 
  In the winter, they had a big tin wash tub, sitting next to the wood stove. You would actually sit down in it, in a crouch, while "ma" poured one bucket of steaming water over you to scrub with.  After you finished scrubbing, a second bucket, of just room temp water, was poured over your head to rinse you off.  These baths were apparently only 4 or 5 minute affairs. 
 
   It was also apparently routine for the men to "wash-up" every evening, before supper.  This meant stripping to the waist and scrubbing themselves clean with a wash rag and soap, from a wash basin, and then toweling off.
 
  All in all, I'm sure we would find all of these people extremely stinky by today's standards.
 
Mannyrock
 
   
 
 

[jlwilliams]

  I frequetly do the 'wash up' you described.  I do shower daily, but some days are dirtier than others.  Sometimes it just helps to take a quick swab down followed by a hair comb and a re-aplication of deodorant.  It makes me feel a little better and I imagine those around me don't mind either  . 
 
  If the power went down, we'd all smell a bit...gamey by comparison to what we've become accustomed to.