Author Topic: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal  (Read 8342 times)

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Offline saddlebum

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2011, 12:12:01 PM »
I came across this video while I was looking for something else. It's a good example of what I was trying to explain in my previous post about the faster, sharper recoil of the .40. We can determine from this video that the sharper recoil rate from the full size .40 can in fact be hazardous to your health.........At least if you are a girl!

Be sure to watch the video a little past the halfway point where she shoots the .40 for the second time to discover the ill effects of the .40s recoil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWO-EzoIbSs&NR=1&feature=fvwp

(I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!)
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2011, 12:12:59 PM »
I think of the 10mm as the .357maximum of autos.
My whole comparison on this subject is strange, but I'm not sure how else to put it......I'm weird!   :o

So I wonder what other factor there is besides the recoil factor, ammo and longevity and popularity of the standards?
In some guns like Glock its an easy bbl swap from 9mm to 40 S&W , there may be more out there than appears .
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2011, 04:13:55 PM »
In some guns like Glock its an easy bbl swap from 9mm to 40 S&W , there may be more out there than appears .

Not quite. It's a little more complicated than that.   You will have to at least change the magazine to accommodate the larger .40 ammo and recoil spring to handle the heavier recoil if not the entire slide because of the difference in the head sizes between the 9mm & .40. 

Perhaps you were thinking about going from .40 to .357 SIG which can be done by a simple barrel swap in most guns.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2011, 02:55:48 AM »
The 40 cal is a niche cartridge that gained favor when the feds couldn't qualify with it and they needed something a bit fluffier than the big bad 10.  On one hand they can cite the need for controllability and less frequent pass-throughs and collateral damage but the truth is there were simply too many fbi types who could not handle or manage the 10.  And the Miami shootout was a lesson in tactics, not firepower.  The ammo used in the 9mms simply failed to immediately incapacitate - it finally managed to kill, but did not stop immediately.  Don't forget that the Winchester 9mm ammo used by the fed (Silvertips)was designed to expand and not penetrate t&t, following the fallacious notion that such would stop a gun-slinging criminal immediately but it was the ammo that failed.  The killer who took 3 hits to his chest with that ammo finally died after being head shot but it was the ammo, and of course the fbi tactics at the time, that failed.

I believe the only reason for the success of the 40 S&W is its police use.  For some reason many agencies believe or feel that the 9 is insufficient and the 45 too big.  The 9 has never been insufficient but the 45 may well be too big for many officers to effectively qualify.  I have used the 9 on the battlefield and it works - I have never seen anyone walk away from a double tap to the chest even with ball ammo; 3 rounds at the most if you don't want them falling on you and blowing blood all  over you in the process. 

When I hear of the 9 not working in Irag/Afganistan I kind of wonder why, when it worked before and I simply do not buy the idea that the middle easterners are bigger and badder than the VC/NVA were.  Let's not forget what the 9 did to our guys during WWII. 

I have always felt it is not the size of the bullet but placement that counts.  I don't carry a 9 that much because I don't own the pistol I prefer, but I may, soon.  jmtcw. 

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2011, 04:04:02 AM »
Does anyone know why police departments didn't go with the .357 SIG?  Ballistics indicate it is like a light 357 mag or 38 spc +P. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2011, 06:28:26 AM »
Does anyone know why police departments didn't go with the .357 SIG?  Ballistics indicate it is like a light 357 mag or 38 spc +P.
A good number of Departments have gone to the 357 Sig.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2011, 07:38:30 AM »
In some guns like Glock its an easy bbl swap from 9mm to 40 S&W , there may be more out there than appears .

Not quite. It's a little more complicated than that.   You will have to at least change the magazine to accommodate the larger .40 ammo and recoil spring to handle the heavier recoil if not the entire slide because of the difference in the head sizes between the 9mm & .40. 

Perhaps you were thinking about going from .40 to .357 SIG which can be done by a simple barrel swap in most guns.
No in a Glock it mag and bbl.
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2011, 12:25:33 PM »
In some guns like Glock its an easy bbl swap from 9mm to 40 S&W , there may be more out there than appears .

Not quite. It's a little more complicated than that.   You will have to at least change the magazine to accommodate the larger .40 ammo and recoil spring to handle the heavier recoil if not the entire slide because of the difference in the head sizes between the 9mm & .40. 

Perhaps you were thinking about going from .40 to .357 SIG which can be done by a simple barrel swap in most guns.
No in a Glock it mag and bbl.

If you start with a .40 you can switch barrels and magazines to convert it to 9mm but if you start with a 9mm you will have swap the entire slide as well.  The 9mm breach face is too small to accommodate the larger diameter .40.  Trust me.
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Offline Dand

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2011, 01:15:18 PM »
I'm mostly a wheel gun guy.  Have a 357 SP 101 as first carry gun and the one I trust most for its ruggedness.  For field carry I'm a 41 mag guy and love my 657 Mt Gun. I also have a couple 9's - my dad's war souvenir  P38 and a Taurus knockoff of the Bretta 92 that shoots well and that I grabbed days before the large mag ban went into effect years ago. 

But when I had some "spare cash" I decided I wanted a 45. I shopped and shopped but never found a gun in my (low) price range that fit my hand well.  Finally ended up with a Walther P99 in 40 that feels really good.  I shoot it quite accurately and I like its light weight for carrying. With its 10 round mag it has an advantage over the 5 shot 101 and about as concealable.

I find reloading the 40 much more pleasant than the small 9mm cases - tho a bit more expensive.  For now I'm happy to stay with the 40.  It seems a lot more powerful than the 9 and since many of our city and state police here use the 40, I'm able to pick up a lot of 1x brass at the range nearly any time I go - I've even found handfuls of unfired rounds that must have been dropped in some drill. 

I do find that if I haven't practiced, the first round of the 40 in this light gun seems much sharper than others and takes me a little by surprise.

Tho it sure doesn't whack me like a full power 357 158gr or greater in my 101.

Now I'm thinking I'd like to get an all steel 40 -  a CZ 75 - the other most comfortable autoloader I've ever held.
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Offline bubbinator

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2011, 09:52:51 PM »
I reloaded since '70. LEO since '65-'08(Mil/State+FBI FA Instructor)Carried 38/9mm/40/45 in mil/SEA/Civiilan roles including U/C /Unform/Decective work.  The FBI, IMHO, spent 10 Mil USD reinventing the 185gr 45+P!  Glock, with uber-cheap gun deals to departments has driven the 40 cal market. My former agency went 9mmG17( bullet failure)>45ACP no problems/Sig P220>G22(PC Cop Groupie Political appointee stock holder>lower qual rates/training issues. I hunt/live in a rural area / deal with feral animals, ect. The only 2 9mm rds I trust are Fed 124+P+ LEO only and WW Ranger 127 +P+.  My 45s carry Fed HSTs or Ranger 230R45TPs.  The only 40 I own was a mandatory State police issue  G22, which due to the rail carries a light, I keep handy @ night.  I docarry wheel guns as BUGs too in 38+P and  45.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2011, 02:04:39 AM »
Personally!
I find the .357sig to be more pleasant to shoot that the .40. I have shot the 10mm and it was better than the .40.
I think we are talking more about size of gun, and weight, than we are caliber.
I use as an example the tank in a model 28 S&W. My own daughter likes it better than the .327mag in her S&W.
I also like the .45 better out of a Sig P 220 than out of a Commander.
I can shoot out of any but I am talking preference for range time here.
My Scandium .357 sleeps under the mattress and see's little range use.
The .40 out of a Sig P239 is a harsher recoil that the same weapon with the .357sig barrel.
I just don't care for the performance of the .40--for the recoil I prefer the 10mm.
For the bluntness of trauma produced I like the .45.
I like the .38 super and the 9x23 handsdown over the 9mm and even the .40 for lethality and range time.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2011, 02:22:40 AM »
In some guns like Glock its an easy bbl swap from 9mm to 40 S&W , there may be more out there than appears .

Not quite. It's a little more complicated than that.   You will have to at least change the magazine to accommodate the larger .40 ammo and recoil spring to handle the heavier recoil if not the entire slide because of the difference in the head sizes between the 9mm & .40. 

Perhaps you were thinking about going from .40 to .357 SIG which can be done by a simple barrel swap in most guns.
No in a Glock it mag and bbl.

If you start with a .40 you can switch barrels and magazines to convert it to 9mm but if you start with a 9mm you will have swap the entire slide as well.  The 9mm breach face is too small to accommodate the larger diameter .40.  Trust me.
the 40 has a rebated rim to fit
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 04:08:55 AM »
Shootall,  Have you or anyone you personally know done a 9mm to .40 conversion as you describe without swapping out the entire upper?   


Comparison of .40 S&W and 9mm Luger dimensions:

Rim Diam.         .40S&W = .424"     9mm = .392"
Base Diam.      .40 S&W = .424"     9mm = .391"
Rim Thickness  .40 S&W = .005"     9mm = .035"

As I said before you can go from .40 s&W down to 9mm Luger with a barrel and mag. swap but going up from 9mm to .40 S&W requires a new upper.   If you have first hand knowledge of someone who has successfully gone from 9mm up to .40 S&W with out swapping uppers I would sure like to be put in touch with them. 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2011, 04:23:01 AM »
9mms tend to be sloppy in mesurements , more so if from off shore . I have no Idea of how to get you intouch with people I see at ranges . I have seen glocks shoot though. as a matter of fact I have mixed 380's in and had then function in a glock . Yep case split but they worked. Maybe it was old guns who knows ?
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2011, 04:41:07 AM »
I can see a .380 functioning in a 9mm since you are stepping down in size.  But unless Glock has some pretty lax tolerances I don't see how you could possibly step up in size.   I have herd of and seen several .40 to 9mm conversions but never a single 9mm to .40 conversion that did not require a swap of the upper. 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2011, 06:06:04 AM »
I respect your thoughts on the subject and you may be right about lax tolerances as they are made to function with any and all ammo including dirty and damaged. I know the Browning HP are very different .
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2011, 11:25:57 AM »
The Sig conversion is a mere barrel swap, using the existing mags---.40 to .357sig---not anything 9mm.
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2011, 12:22:20 PM »
The Sig conversion is a mere barrel swap, using the existing mags---.40 to .357sig---not anything 9mm.
Blessings

Yup, Same as for the S&W M&P--- .40 S&W to .357sig.   In fact the magazines are stamped with both calibers.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2011, 01:23:26 PM »
I respect your thoughts on the subject and you may be right about lax tolerances as they are made to function with any and all ammo including dirty and damaged. I know the Browning HP are very different.

I also remember reading of the 9 to a 40 conversion but not seen it. 

Maybe glock doc will find this thread and comment...

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2011, 06:43:59 AM »
A few years ago I purchased a Sig P229 in 9mm.
I called Sig and asked if I could make it into a 40/357 by adding a new upper.
Looking at extractor there was no way it would work with a 40
Sig game back that even with a new upper it would not work.
the Mag well is only wide enough for a 9mm magazine.
Not sure if there is a difference in the width of the mags from a Glock 9 to a 40 but the 40 may not fit in the hole in the bottom, being too wide.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2011, 08:09:58 AM »
That is correct.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2011, 09:03:03 AM »
A glock 23/22/17/19 mag will all fit in a model 19 or 23 pistol. The will all also fit the 26/27 pistols As well. Obviously the simply protrude from the grip farther.

In checking with some friends inthe know, and as stated above. The 40s slide will work with the 9mm sized rim. But the 9mms slide will not accept the larger 40 case head.

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2011, 10:18:28 AM »
I wonder if some of the confussion of changing a 9mm to a 40 comes from the fact that a 357 Sig actually shoots 9mm (.355) bullets and not .357 / 38 bullets.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2011, 05:16:33 AM »
The confusion comes from a couple of different things.
The .38/.357/9mm/.38 super/9x23 are actually the same bullet. I have been reloading 9mm bullets into .38 supers and 9x23 for years with no dis-affect (made up word). Of course i don't own a chrongraph--so that effect/affect is unknown, but function has hasn't been a problem, nor, accuracy.
The .357sig is a .40 cal shell casing necked down to a 9mm, if you want to call it that or .357 if you wish to call it that.
It is the shell casing that presents the problem. In the 9mm slide and magazine there is a different width to deal with when you start shoving larger shell casings in them.
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2011, 09:00:30 AM »
The .40 is popular enough that it will be around forever. Our agency is overrun with them. And we have a list to choose from. Our revolver list is limited to .357 for duty and .38 for off duty for all peace officers. But the .40, 9mm, and .45 can be carried for both. And our local police dept is going to issue only and they will be all .40 (Austin,TX). So I would say it is still very popular. I had a Glock 23 years ago but didn't like it much. But that was a "fat sight" issue, not caliber issue. And when I used to run handguns and machine guns for tourists the Glock 22 was requested often. Even more than the 9mm. Out of all calibers in various guns it was the .40, .45 Auto, and the .44 Mag in that order of popularity. And this was running through 400 lbs of brass in a week.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2011, 03:05:37 PM »
The confusion comes from a couple of different things.
The .38/.357/9mm/.38 super/9x23 are actually the same bullet. I have been reloading 9mm bullets into .38 supers and 9x23 for years with no dis-affect (made up word). Of course i don't own a chrongraph--so that effect/affect is unknown, but function has hasn't been a problem, nor, accuracy.
The .357sig is a .40 cal shell casing necked down to a 9mm, if you want to call it that or .357 if you wish to call it that.
It is the shell casing that presents the problem. In the 9mm slide and magazine there is a different width to deal with when you start shoving larger shell casings in them.
Blessings
Bill from what I understand the 38 Super has always been a 9mm. 9X23 is the 9mm Largo and is basiclly a long 9mm Parabellum with a rimless case.  the 38 Super is a Semi Rimed case like 32 ACP.
Sig called it the 357 because they wanted to match the proformance of the 125 grain 357 mag #1 on the one shot stop list in an auto.  they came close but then too did a lot of others.  They are not getting the 1400 FPS with a 124 / 125 JHP out of the guns.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2011, 01:22:42 AM »
the 40 S&W in some ways is a remake of the 38-40 and 41 Colt . History repetes .
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2011, 06:57:28 AM »
The pressures in a 9x23 are MUCH greater than the 9mm largo. 50,000 psi if I remember correctly and small rifle primers.
The Largo and 9x23 are completely different animals.
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Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2011, 01:50:47 PM »
Brett has it right: The .40 Glock upper will function with both the 9 & .40. The 9mm upper will not accept a .40 case due to the rim dimensions as he pointed out. So----------if ya wanna shoot both, buy the .40 Glock and pick up an aftermarket 9mm barrel and a few magazines then shoot either.  Of course the .357 Sig barrel works with the .40 Glock upper as well as it shares a common case. Not guessing here, I own Glocks in 9mm/.40/.45.
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Offline Brett

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2011, 03:59:58 PM »
Savage, thank you for the verification.   I do not own a Glock but do own a Smith M&P .40 and know for fact that I can switch from the .40 to 9mm by simply swapping barrel and magazines but could not go from 9mm to .40 without changing uppers for the reasons I stated.  Therefor,  I could  deduce that the same principles would hold true for the Glocks as well.

So to reiterate:  If you want to shoot both .40S&W and 9mm from the same gun you must start with a .40 no matter who's platform you are using.   
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