165 gameking or the 165 accubond for elk

[wind drift]

Well to all you elk hunters out there i will be going to CO. in a month to try it i will be taking my trusty 308 i have 6 boxes of the fed. with the 165 game king that i use for deer and hogs and they work great.What i am wanting to know is that the game king and the accubond have the same sec. density but the accubond has the higher B.C. would the accubond be alot better bullet for elk or would the gameking work just as good.THANKS

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive used both on deer, not elk. On deer at 308 velocitys i prefer the game king. The accubond is a great bullet but i havent had exceptional accuracy with it in my guns and its a bit stoutly constructed for 308 velocitys. It is about perfect for a 300 mag though if you can get it to shoot well. Bottom line is either will kill an elk or a deer if put in the right spot. Ive killed probably 5 or 6 deer with the 165 gameking in 308s and my dad has killed a truck load of deer with it as its the only bullet he uses in his blr. Personaly i prefer 150s in the 308 but you arent going to convince dad of that. Hes just killed to many deer with that bullet and thinks its the hammer of thor.

[nomosendero]

Both are good bullets & both will work, however for Elk I would pick the Accubond for sure.

For me, I would look at terminal performance more than BC for 2 reasons in this case.
1. An Elk is a large animal & alot of penetration may be needed and sometimes at a raking angle. You used the Sierra on Hogs & it worked, but the length pf penetration can be more in the Elk. At 308 vel. the Sierra usually does OK, but I would rather have a more consistant bullet. I used that bullet at 30-06 velocities & took sev. Whitetails & had 2 jacket/core separations.
2. BC is important sometimes, but secondary in this case because at long range the 308 energy gets pretty low for Elk after 300 yds. & up to 300 yds. BC will not matter much unless you Sierra tip gets flattened. This is not to say that the 308 won't take a rib shot Elk over 300 yds, but I don't consider it a long range Elk gun either. However with a lead tipped bullet as the Sierra, a battered tip will change that BC alot, no problem at 100 yds, but is at 300. So the BC part is a yes & a no, but not as important as terminal perf.

IF your rifle will shoot the Accubond, I would save your Sierra ammo for local hunting. I have done alot of Western hunts & I know the bullet is the least expensive part of the hunt, so talking about the cost diff. would be silly. Why not stack the odds in your favor as much as possible?

I do agree with Lloyd that the Gameking at 308 vel. is a great Deer bullet.

[jro45]

You say that the gameking and accubond have the same SD. but do they shoot the same
. myself I would use the accubond if it would shoot to point of ame

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  for shooting elk, the accubond or partition is the way to go..with a good broad side shot the Serria's are fine, but you may not get that perfect shot...don't pinch pennies, and may be loose a nice animal, not to mention the suffering of the elk if things go wrong...Nomosendero gave you excellent advice..the 165 serrias are fine deer ammo, but soft for elk...

[BBF]

Well, here is the perfect reason for NoslerPT's  The front portion is lightly constructed to expand the rear part to penetrate. Of course the need to shoot well in your rifle.

[shot1]

In my experience with the Accubond bullets they are accurate and fly like the ballistic tip. They start to open up like the ballistic tip but hold together and keep on trucking like the partition. They will hold together, I actually recovered one shot from my 264 Win mag. 130 Gr. AB left the muzzle at 3350 fps average and struck a buck whitetail 111 yards away on the front edge of it's left shoulder as it faced me with a slight angle. Smashed the shoulder made soup of the vitals and when cutting up the meat I found the bullet in the right ham. It was a text book mushroom and it's weight was 87 grs. That is 60% weight retention just like they were designed to do.  That bullet had to still be doing at least 3200 fps on impact. I believe I would use that 165 Accubond on elk. You need to get down deep into where they live and the Accubond will do it.

[wind drift]

Well i want to think you guys for yall's input i to have all ways shot the 165 gameking have killed several mule,whitetail,and hogs with this bullet.Nomo i hereyou on the lead tip getting messed up i have about ten rounds like that.I have already bought a box of accubonds i will be loading up this week end over some varget just need to find the sweet spot  i hope they fly as good as the game king.THANKS       

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not going to start an argument about if the accubonds or partitions are needed for elk hunting. If it were a 300 mag id hands down agree but at the velocitys your going to get out of a 308 a premium bullet in my opinion just isnt needed. A hell of alot of elk have been killed cleanly with 270s 06s and 308s before anyone ever saw a premium bullet. I personaly know a hunter that has taken over a dozen trophy bulls with a 270 using factory 130 corelocks. Ive personaly took a number of black bear and boar with conventional cup core bullets and there just as tough to penetrate as any elk. I will say this with no reservation. If a 165 sierra fails to kill an elk its nothing your going to blame on the bullet. More likely it was poor shot placement. Now again if your shooting that sierra out of a 300 mag it might be a differnt story.

[nomosendero]

Im not going to start an argument about if the accubonds or partitions are needed for elk hunting. If it were a 300 mag id hands down agree but at the velocitys your going to get out of a 308 a premium bullet in my opinion just isnt needed. A hell of alot of elk have been killed cleanly with 270s 06s and 308s before anyone ever saw a premium bullet. I personaly know a hunter that has taken over a dozen trophy bulls with a 270 using factory 130 corelocks. Ive personaly took a number of black bear and boar with conventional cup core bullets and there just as tough to penetrate as any elk. I will say this with no reservation. If a 165 sierra fails to kill an elk its nothing your going to blame on the bullet. More likely it was poor shot placement. Now again if your shooting that sierra out of a 300 mag it might be a differnt story.

I agree no argument is needed at all. And as I said in my earlier post I did have 2 jacket/core separations
using a 30-06 on Whitetails with the 165 Sie. Now the vel was higher than a 308, but the animals were much smaller than an Elk too. It is also true that the Deer died, but one was shot in the throat patch & the bullet did not exit the back of the neck. I decided then not to use that bullet again in my 30-06, but I would not hesitate to use it for Deer or even Hogs at 308 vel.& it would still be fine for my fast 30-06 loads in most cases, but the Deer mentioned came up out of a draw only 25yds. away, so it received allmost muzzle vel.It is very true that the higher the vel the tougher the bullet needs to be. But for Elk specifically, which might show up at 300 yds. or 20 yds, the Sierra 165 would not be the bullet of choice for a point of the "shoulder" shot at 20 yds. Granted, at real close range you can typically pick a different spot, but not allways. And for such a shot the Sierra might even work MOST of the time at 308 speed, but I want a bullet that will work in any condition I find myself in. Given the 2 choices that were asked about, the Accubond is that bullet if it is accurate in his gun.

When we spend $2,000.00 & up (usually way up) for an Elk hunt, I will gladly pay $20.00 more (1/100th of the hunt price or less) for a superior bullet. To me, it is not about saying a bullet won't work, but one that allways will.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess ive kind of soured on premium bullets. About the only two i even use anymore are the partition and the speer grand slam. Ive tried the hornady and remington (probably the same thing) and neither shot worth crap in any of my guns. The barnes bullets have never shot that well for me either. I know that you can get over expansion with cup and core bullets at close range but ive also experineced under expansion of premium bullets at longer ranges. that is especially true of the barnes bullets. I shot one whitetail with a 180 barnes out of the 300 mag at 300 yards right behind the shoulder and at the shot the deer took off and traveled almost a quarter of a mile before it fell dead. The bullet shot a pensil sized hole threw both lungs. Even partitions dont put game down like ballistic tips and seirras. I could care less if the core seperates if the deer drops dead on the spot. Like you also said range means alot. Ive shot a number of deer with the 165 sierra and ballistic tip out of a 300 mag at 250-400 yards and they usually drop like a deer hit at 50 with a 308 and usually allways get an exit wound. Now im sure if i shot a deer at 20 yards with that load id have one messed up deer but when i hunt in close woods or the swamp i usually use a 6 gun not a rifle and even if hunting with a rifle allways have a sixgun so i couldnt imagine ever shooting any animal at 20 yards with a rifle. 

Im not going to start an argument about if the accubonds or partitions are needed for elk hunting. If it were a 300 mag id hands down agree but at the velocitys your going to get out of a 308 a premium bullet in my opinion just isnt needed. A hell of alot of elk have been killed cleanly with 270s 06s and 308s before anyone ever saw a premium bullet. I personaly know a hunter that has taken over a dozen trophy bulls with a 270 using factory 130 corelocks. Ive personaly took a number of black bear and boar with conventional cup core bullets and there just as tough to penetrate as any elk. I will say this with no reservation. If a 165 sierra fails to kill an elk its nothing your going to blame on the bullet. More likely it was poor shot placement. Now again if your shooting that sierra out of a 300 mag it might be a differnt story.

I agree no argument is needed at all. And as I said in my earlier post I did have 2 jacket/core separations
using a 30-06 on Whitetails with the 165 Sie. Now the vel was higher than a 308, but the animals were much smaller than an Elk too. It is also true that the Deer died, but one was shot in the throat patch & the bullet did not exit the back of the neck. I decided then not to use that bullet again in my 30-06, but I would not hesitate to use it for Deer or even Hogs at 308 vel.& it would still be fine for my fast 30-06 loads in most cases, but the Deer mentioned came up out of a draw only 25yds. away, so it received allmost muzzle vel.It is very true that the higher the vel the tougher the bullet needs to be. But for Elk specifically, which might show up at 300 yds. or 20 yds, the Sierra 165 would not be the bullet of choice for a point of the "shoulder" shot at 20 yds. Granted, at real close range you can typically pick a different spot, but not allways. And for such a shot the Sierra might even work MOST of the time at 308 speed, but I want a bullet that will work in any condition I find myself in. Given the 2 choices that were asked about, the Accubond is that bullet if it is accurate in his gun.

When we spend $2,000.00 & up (usually way up) for an Elk hunt, I will gladly pay $20.00 more (1/100th of the hunt price or less) for a superior bullet. To me, it is not about saying a bullet won't work, but one that allways will.

[nomosendero]

Well at 20 yds. I would rather use my Bow than a Handgun, but that's beside the point.
Yea Lloyd I hear ya on the 20 yard shot & I hand gun hunt at times & have taken nice animals with a handgun, but this was one of those deals when a Deer popped up from a place he wasn't supposed to. I could not have set my rifle down & grabbed my .44 whether I had it with me or not, he was looking right at me & the Deer I hunt don't act like those on the hunting videos. Besides, the poster here never mentioned having a handgun along & who would turn down a close shot because it was close? Again, its about being ready for everything.

My 300 really likes the Accubond, but some rifles don't & that's why I stated IF his gun shoots them, which is the case with ANY bullet.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya theres no doubt a time and place comes where you dont have much control and just have to dance with the one you brung. I guess though in that case i may just have to make a few more lbs of hamburger then you would. Another thing to make this fair is i shoot probably 50 deer a year and to me a bit of blood shot meat i have to toss isnt a concern like it is for someone who only gets a crack at one or two. As a matter of fact i look for a bullet that puts a deer down right now. When shooting crop damage we like to shoot them so they dont run into the field where we would destroy crop taking them out.

[nomosendero]

ya theres no doubt a time and place comes where you dont have much control and just have to dance with the one you brung. I guess though in that case i may just have to make a few more lbs of hamburger then you would. Another thing to make this fair is i shoot probably 50 deer a year and to me a bit of blood shot meat i have to toss isnt a concern like it is for someone who only gets a crack at one or two. As a matter of fact i look for a bullet that puts a deer down right now. When shooting crop damage we like to shoot them so they dont run into the field where we would destroy crop taking them out.

I agree with all of that. But when looking at the question & which bullet is best for Elk & under all circumstances, give me the accubond.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but i was refering to 300 mags. In a 308 I stand behind my belief that a standard cup and core bullet is good enough for elk. Maybe when you step up to the 300 mags the cup and core bullets arent the best for close range shots but id still bet a dime to a dollar that if you put one in the ribs youd have a very dead elk.

[nomosendero]

ya but i was refering to 300 mags. In a 308 I stand behind my belief that a standard cup and core bullet is good enough for elk. Maybe when you step up to the 300 mags the cup and core bullets arent the best for close range shots but id still bet a dime to a dollar that if you put one in the ribs youd have a very dead elk.

So would I
In the ribs, yes & have never disagreed with that & even in the shoulder yes for many cup & core at 308 velocity, some are alot tougher than a 165 Sierra & I would rather go with a 180 in the Sierra. Remember, we are talking about up close for a guy that may not handgun hunt for the close shot, so the bullet has to do everything for Elk. We are talking about the 2 bullets that we asked about, not any cup & core. With what I have seen with that bullet twice I will spend that extra $20.00 for a $2,000.00 and above hunt, just like I will wear better boots than some that would probably get me by or any other part of the hunt.

[Lloyd Smale]

its not anything to do with cost. I have over 30 grand in just loading gear at home and handguns that cost over 2 grand. I guess im a bit old school and dont go for alot of fancy stuff. I too buy good boots but there still leather and still wear wool hunting clothes. When something has worked for me for 20 years i just dont run out and buy something new because a company tells me i need it. I do use some speer grand slams and nos partitions but thats about it for premium bullets. I guess i really wouldnt have a problem with the bonded core bullets if i could get them to shoot well and if i wasnt so bull headed im sure i could find one that shot in about every one of my guns but just havent found a need to do it. Im surely not trying to say your wrong or that those bullets are junk. Just that cup and core bullets have worked for me and i kind of chuckle at guys that jump on the bandwagon of every new premium bullet made like theres some kind of majic to them thats going to kill animals like the hand of thor.

[nomosendero]

Yes, there are many who have to be first, I got over that one almost 20 years ago!

Little brother was drawn for one of our much prized AR Elk tags 2 years ago, a Cow tag. The Buffalo River area is quite rugged and alot of thickets. The odds were his shot could be close, but there are fields along the river that the AFGC has made food plots, these fields were 200-600 ydslong, so the shots could be long as well. He had a 30-06 that would have been fine, so he borrowed my 300WM. I loaded 180gr. Accubonds @ near 3,100fps & I knew with that bullet he would be ready regardless of a close or far shot. As it turned out, a herd skirted the edge of a field, his shot was 165 yds. At that range the impact vel. would be about the same as his 30-06 at the muzzle.The Cow was angled a little, the bullet busted a rib going in, entered the lung area & destroyed them, then busted the off-side shoulder & exited with about a 2" hole. It was most impressive.

[wind drift]

Alright already all this bickering over the 308 has taken its toll on me so i went to academy this morning and picked up a 700adl in 7mag for 350 bucks out the door.My wife says thanks    I also got a box of the hornday 139 super performance with the sst.So now what do yall perfer in the 7mag. dont get to carried away or else i will half to buy another gun in a bigger cal. I DO THANK you guys for your input.THANKS 

[nomosendero]

 

Well OK, like Lloyd & I have both said, the higher the velocity the tougher the bullet needs to be for Elk. Now you have a much faster round. The 129SST is a little on the soft side & again if a cup & core is used, I  would lean to the heavy side. A 129SST @ 7RM speed would not be a good choice at all for close quartering shots at all. A 140 or heavier Part., or Accubond or TTSX would be great but for lower priced ammo that works well I know the Fed Fushion 150gr. would serve you well as well as several others.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Nosler Partitions..Everyone else is trying to match what Nosler  did 50 years ago...with Nosler Part. for big stuff and your favorite bullet for deer and antelope you are in fine shape...

[ccoker]

one thing to note:
there are 2 Sierra 165g Gamekings
the SP and the HP
the latter is a stouter bullet

Every deer I have taken with a 308 has been with a handloaded 165 Gameking BTSP
very accurate, 1" 300 yard groups and dead deer, Texas Whitetails

I would go with a stouter bullet for Elk, assuming it shot well

[nomosendero]

one thing to note:
there are 2 Sierra 165g Gamekings
the SP and the HP
the latter is a stouter bullet

Every deer I have taken with a 308 has been with a handloaded 165 Gameking BTSP
very accurate, 1" 300 yard groups and dead deer, Texas Whitetails

I would go with a stouter bullet for Elk, assuming it shot well

Indeed

[jmckinley]

  4 years ago I took a 400 class bull using 165gr Core-Lokts at 75 yards and it never took another step. I guess i am crazy but many moons ago the Core-Lokts and Power Points were the Premium bullets what happened did they turn in POS's all of sudden? I don't handload so I'll stick with what i know. My 06 will put 3 165' into 3/4 of an inch and if I do my part the Elk won't know what it was hit with. Jess

[Lloyd Smale]

agreed

Nosler Partitions..Everyone else is trying to match what Nosler  did 50 years ago...with Nosler Part. for big stuff and your favorite bullet for deer and antelope you are in fine shape...

[Lloyd Smale]

agreed x2

4 years ago I took a 400 class bull using 165gr Core-Lokts at 75 yards and it never took another step. I guess i am crazy but many moons ago the Core-Lokts and Power Points were the Premium bullets what happened did they turn in POS's all of sudden? I don't handload so I'll stick with what i know. My 06 will put 3 165' into 3/4 of an inch and if I do my part the Elk won't know what it was hit with. Jess

[nomosendero]

agreed

Nosler Partitions..Everyone else is trying to match what Nosler  did 50 years ago...with Nosler Part. for big stuff and your favorite bullet for deer and antelope you are in fine shape...

That's a good plan if your gun likes them. It is equally good to do the exact same thing with the Accubond
& your favorite game bullet or just use Accubonds for everything, all 3 methods would give total success if you do your part & as a fourth a c&c will work for everything as well, for me one like a Corelokt would be perferred over the bullet in question. To me it goes back to what your gun likes.

[charles p]

Like someone has already said, I cannot get premium bullets to pattern as well as standard cup and core bullets, with the exception being Nosler BTs (which I only shoot paper with).  I am approaching 200 whitetail kills, or which about 150 are with rifles in the 25-06 to 30-06 ranges and I have only had one bullet disappointment with a cup and core bullet.  This was with a straight on shot at about 250 yds with a 7mm Rem magnum.  The deer dropped graveyard dead (hard to blame the bullet) but when dressing the deer I could not find any bullet damage.  I had to hold the hide up to a light to find the bullet hole, then go back to the carcass to find the enrty point.  Why that deer was killed is still a mystery to me.
I don't use BTs because I've had several failures with them and experienced several more.  They are very accurate at the range but I no longer use them in the field.  I think they open too fast when striking dense muscle.  A rib shot is OK.  A frontal is a problem for the BTs I've used, even at non-magnum velocities.
I think green box Remington factory bullets are great but I have mostly reloaded with Sierra bullets.  Boattails offer no advantage.  Hollow points aren't an advantage either.
Just my two cents worth.