Really BIG bore for elk?

[Dogshooter]

I have a .458 Lott that I bought thinking I would be eventually be getting a chance to go to Africa some day. I am getting older and the odds are growing against it now. Just wondered how many of you guys have done the same thing and have actually used a BIG bore for game in the US. I drew a moose tag this year and planned to use a 629 with hardcast 312 grain hardcast bullets but think I MIGHT want to use the .458 for my moose. Any thoughts on using the big bore here?

[Thebear_78]

Using either the 350gr speer or 350gr tipped TSX I wouldn't think twice about using the 458 lott for moose or elk, or deer even.  I was easily getting 2750fps with Ramshot tac and H322 in my 458 lott with the 350 gr speer.  Didn't kick too bad and great accuracy.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

Dogshooter, I never had a really big bore, a 45-70 or .375 H & H are my biggest.........but if I had a 458 Lott, I sure would not hesitate to use it..you can't kill and elk or moose too dead...for me it is better to have too much than not enough...it kind irritating to me to hear about someone wanting to shoot a big animal with a squirrel gun..if you are going to hunt big game, one should have a big game rifle...great gun use it......

[TGFOGAL]

It is fun. Back in 04 I used my Weatherby 460 on a Elk hunt in Co.. A friend and I joined a group from are state that go out a lot. I saw one bull at 212 yards, hit it with a 500gr Swift A-Fame at 2600fps.
It did a great job.

Tom

[Darrell Davis]

Of course, the following is IMHO, but I get a bit torked when I hear people talking about excessive meat distruction on a game animal.

Many if not most of the times, this is with lighter then 458 rifles, and is mostly the result of using bullets which lack integraty.  ie, they won't hold together.

Now as we progress upward in caliber/size the bullets many times become tougher because of the increased stress of the big cartridges.

This is not always the case, some 45 caliber bullets are made with the Trapdoor Springfield velocities in mind and they to are weak in structure.

However, use a bullet fitting of the cartridge your using, or better yet a good cast "boolit" with a large meplat and not only will the 458 Lott do you a very fine job, but you will have results with a minimum of meat damage.

The 460 Weatherby with the 500gr Swift - a - frame, as listed above, is a prime example of going in the right direction.

Plus, as said by Wyo. Coyote Hunter, there ain't no such thing as too dead!

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[kynardsj]

I say that if a 458 is the gun you have then use it. Elk are big critters and no, it doesn't take the caliber gun you have to drop one but with the proper bullet in that 458 you'll do just fine without tearing up too much meat. A thick jacketed soft point or Barnes bullet should do the job nicely. JMHO

[mcwoodduck]

Of course, the following is IMHO, but I get a bit torked when I hear people talking about excessive meat distruction on a game animal.

Many if not most of the times, this is with lighter then 458 rifles, and is mostly the result of using bullets which lack integraty.  ie, they won't hold together.

Now as we progress upward in caliber/size the bullets many times become tougher because of the increased stress of the big cartridges.

This is not always the case, some 45 caliber bullets are made with the Trapdoor Springfield velocities in mind and they to are weak in structure.

However, use a bullet fitting of the cartridge your using, or better yet a good cast "boolit" with a large meplat and not only will the 458 Lott do you a very fine job, but you will have results with a minimum of meat damage.

The 460 Weatherby with the 500gr Swift - a - frame, as listed above, is a prime example of going in the right direction.

Plus, as said by Wyo. Coyote Hunter, there ain't no such thing as too dead!

Keep em coming!

CDOC

What would be wrong with loading to hot or warm 45-70 loads.  About equal to 450 Marlin.
45-70 is great for Moose or elk so why not.
350 grain bullet at 1900 to 2300 FPS.
405 grain bullet at 1500 to 1800 FPS.
While the belt is different on the 450 Marlin the inside is the same.  Just shorter.
Think of the loading data for it as a 38 Special version of your 357 Max.
You can load 38 Special loads in a 357 max.  You can also load in 458 Win Mag cases.
and they make nice light loads for it. 
Big Easy posted a recipe he used for deer on another post.

[Darrell Davis]

Good point Mcwoodduck.

They load the 45/70, "from mild to wild" why not the 458 Lott.

Very good point if you hand load, but if not USE IT anyway.l

eep em coming!

CDOC

[454Puma]

The only draw back I see that those big guns are using heavy as heck 9-10 lbs!   Lugging them around in mountains would suck but hey if you can put up with the weight and shoot it accurately have a nut!

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

     Sorry 454, everytime I read a post about a heavy rifle 8-11 pounds, I have a laugh....somewhere in my books, there is a letter to Sharps from an old buffalo hunter, wanting a new Sharps rifle...he gave the caliber,etc. and ends with saying, don't make it too heavy,15 or 16 pounds should be about right....he would laugh at us....

[mcwoodduck]

   Sorry 454, everytime I read a post about a heavy rifle 8-11 pounds, I have a laugh....somewhere in my books, there is a letter to Sharps from an old buffalo hunter, wanting a new Sharps rifle...he gave the caliber,etc. and ends with saying, don't make it too heavy,15 or 16 pounds should be about right....he would laugh at us....

There is a diff between How the Buffalo hunters hunted and how most guys hunt elk and deer now.
A buffalo hunter would find a hill set up the rifle on shooting sticks and lob rounds at as many as he could see.
A heavy stable platform was needed.  once the shooting was over a wagon would pull up and the rifle was stored.  Varmit shooting 1200 pound ground squirrels if you will.
I think rifle weight would not matter if you platform hunt.  but walking all over the country side looking for elk.  Weight matters.

[Darrell Davis]

Ya, many of the "big bore" rifles are heavy, but not all.

There can be a price to pay with recoil, but there are those who seem to not mind that factor or?

My RUGER #1s is not in the class of the heavy weights, listed in the catalog as the "Medium Sporter" at 7 1/4lbs.

Now add a 2X7 scope and mounts and it still won't make the heavy wt. class.

It may not officially make the Big Bore class, but with a 350 - 425gr slug at 2100 - 2200fps the difference will never be known by any North American animal.

Years ago, I had a RUGER #1B in 22/250, that someone had cut down from 26 to 22" and it was one of the handiest rifles I ever used.  The #1B is listed at 8 1/4lbs, and I doubt the loss of 4" of barrel would bring it down to the wt. of the #1s - 45/70 - with that barrel which looks a lot like a shotgun tube.

So, This 45/70 with it's 22" barrel is light and handy and a joy to carry in the field and with the big/thick recoil pad I have added Plus the sissy pad filled with #5 shot for bench use, the recoil is being managed quite well.

There is however, a slight difference in recoil   between the long departed 22/250 and this 45/70.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

MC, you are right about how the buff hunters killed their game...but they also carried their rifles a bunch..also look at the 76 and 86 Winchesters...pretty heavy rifles, and they were used for elk and deer...I have packed a 10.5 pound rifle many miles hunting elk, deer, sheep, caribou, moose, and other game...I had this rifle in the Yukon in 89...the other guys in camp sported light weight rifles with plastic stocks...we were all hunting sheep...when we took a shot to check the sights...they were not even close...my old gun drilled it right there 3" high...when the hunt was over...they had no sheep, and I had a nice ram..heavier rifles are easier to shoot and hold steady, we all know that...there is a price to pay ofr feather wt. rifles...personally I would rather carry a bit more wt. and have a good accurate shot at game than pack a feather wt. and miss the shot I came for...each to his own..I have nothing against light wt. rifles if you like them...but it still is a sign of the times..people need atvs to hunt, along with all manner of other things to be successful...look at the scent free clothes, etc..and the demand for ever lighter rifles...so we have to put less effort in the hunt to be successful.....I am just crabby I guess....

[Darrell Davis]

Shame on you Hunter!

You must be an Ol'Coot like me.

Keep em coming!

CDOC (Crusty Deary Ol'Coot)

[streak]

Dogshooter,
I went down the same path as you on the African hunt.
I bought a .458 Win. Mag and never made it to Africa! But have no qualms in using 350 grain hornady`s at 2100-2300 fps for deer, elk, or moose! Also have a .375 H & H mag which is definately a elk stopper!

[mcwoodduck]

MC, you are right about how the buff hunters killed their game...but they also carried their rifles a bunch..also look at the 76 and 86 Winchesters...pretty heavy rifles, and they were used for elk and deer...I have packed a 10.5 pound rifle many miles hunting elk, deer, sheep, caribou, moose, and other game...I had this rifle in the Yukon in 89...the other guys in camp sported light weight rifles with plastic stocks...we were all hunting sheep...when we took a shot to check the sights...they were not even close...my old gun drilled it right there 3" high...when the hunt was over...they had no sheep, and I had a nice ram..heavier rifles are easier to shoot and hold steady, we all know that...there is a price to pay ofr feather wt. rifles...personally I would rather carry a bit more wt. and have a good accurate shot at game than pack a feather wt. and miss the shot I came for...each to his own..I have nothing against light wt. rifles if you like them...but it still is a sign of the times..people need atvs to hunt, along with all manner of other things to be successful...look at the scent free clothes, etc..and the demand for ever lighter rifles...so we have to put less effort in the hunt to be successful.....I am just crabby I guess....

Back in 1989, I was 21 and could have carried your and my 12 pound guns all over the map.
I have a few 10+ pound guns.  Both Remingtons.  
My 338 Winchester M70 Super grade is just under that magic 10 pounds as well as my Sako 375 H&H.
I can and have carried them all over the hilsides of Mt and Id a few years back as well as one of the Remingtons.
I have held a 15 pound 45-70 sharps.  I can carry it, I have a small problem snapping off a long (200 Yards or more ) shot with one.  I get wobbly.
But on that note I gues if it was my only rifle I would get used to the weight of both lugging it and shooting it off hand carrying it and shooting it every day.
Also in the old west you shot an elk and you made camp there  and processed the meat.  Camp was what is on your horse or in the wagon.
Also they did not live as long as we do now and I like sleeping on a cot rather than the ground.  I like having a nice dinner than a canteen cup of beans or stew.  but that is just me.
I do not go in for the Zip loc ( I mean sent lock) suit for hunting clothes.
Good hunting on the Ram.  have pictures?  Would like to see.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

MC, I have a few photos in my album and one on the wall...oddly, I have no good photo of that ram and myself..we shot it very late and very far from the horses....when we were sure it was down, I talked it over with my guide and we decided due to the time it must have been close 10:00 at nite, he would return for the horses, and I would skin out the ram bring the head and cape down the mt. to meet him...we left the meat on the mountain over nite and returned the next day for it..hoping perhaps to meet mr. grizzly...he was a fine ram, very old...the only photos I took were with my old .300 and the beautiful ram..we took some others later, but they were not ?? I guess they were too posed...something..I can still remember sitting there in the dusk of the northern twilight, looking over the ram, and the awesome mts. were he lived...finally I saw my guide and the horses little specks down at the foot of the mt. I took my old rifle and the old ram, and hiked down...I remember telling my wife when I returned, if I would have stayed 10 more days, I would have called and told her to sell out and come north.......I am not sure if I could get the old photos on the net or not...It was probably the greatest hunt of my life, and I have very few if any really good photos from it...

[mcwoodduck]

That made me smile.
I stook snipets from places I have been and pasted them in places you discribed bringing back hunting memories of my own.
Thank you.
Sorry you did not get the classic photo of the ram.  Is he mounted?  What kind of sheep was it?  Stone?
I just got a new Phone and the camera in it is awesom.  I tried taking a picture of a picture that was taken in 1979 or 80 and it came out.
You may try taking pictures with a digital camera on a clear sunny day on the kitchen table.  Even if the pictures are not the classic pose I would like to see where you were in Alaska.

Oops I just side tracked this post about the 458 Lott. and how usefull it can be on American game.  let's quickly pull this thing back on the road so we are not yelled at. 
I think we all agree that he should use the 458 lott even with the holly cow loads if that is his only choice but better to load it to warm to hot 45-70 speeds and use it.  you can even look at 45-90 or 45-110 loading data as the 110 case is about as long as the lott case.

[tacklebury]

Really good article has an interesting combination of different loads for the .458 Lott.   Hope it gives you some ideas.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_51/ai_n13785373/

[mrussel]

   Sorry 454, everytime I read a post about a heavy rifle 8-11 pounds, I have a laugh....somewhere in my books, there is a letter to Sharps from an old buffalo hunter, wanting a new Sharps rifle...he gave the caliber,etc. and ends with saying, don't make it too heavy,15 or 16 pounds should be about right....he would laugh at us....

Back during "The Great Patriotic War" Russian soldiers lugged around,along with all the rest of their gear,rifles weighing about 9lbs,through some of the worst weather imaginable (unless you live in alaska,you probboally have never seen ANYTHING like what they went through. They did all this while not having enough food and being shot at. Tell me again how your rifle is too heavy? 

[Silvertp]

Dog Shooter....

Back in my Alaskan days I hunted a lot of black-tailed deer on Islands infested with brown bear.  As a result I packed a much larger caliber than needed for the deer.  I routinely hunted 100 lb deer with both the .375H&H and the .458 Win Mag. 

The .458 was a joy to hunt with and damaged little meat.  I would shoot 500 gr. Hornady's.  I recall shooting a deer at 50 yards that was feeding broadside to me.  At the shot I saw debri flying up on the hillside behind the deer.  The deer looked at me, then dropped its head to get a bite, its body  followed its head to the ground.  The hole coming out looked just like the one going in.

I think your Lott would make a great Moose, Elk or deer rifle, especially if you are not shooting across canyons or from Mountain to Mountain.  If you want to get some use out of that rifle go for it.  Plus, if you ever get to Africa you will know a lot more about handling your rifle than if you leave it in the safe.

Silvertp

[Darrell Davis]

Silvertp,

Good post, and exactly what I would expect.

Time after time I read about folks having excessive meat damage, to which I expound on the positive points of bullets with "integraty."

Unless a person used a bullet in the bigboys, made for trapdoor velocities, your results are about as close to perfect as a person can get.

I am going to give hard cast w/a large meplat a try, as I like the sounds of, "eat'in right up to the hole."

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[Frank V]

I'm a bit late here, but I have taken several Deer with the .458, it was though & you could eat right up to the bullet hole. I regularly hunt with a .375 H&H. The Lott would be great on Moose. If you were hunting in dark timber & a Bear should jump out & contest your being in his territory, the Lott would settle the argument quite nicely. I'd use it.
Frank

[jro45]

I own the CZ 550   458 Lott and it could kill any animal on this earth.

[kynardsj]

The worst meat damage I've experienced was with a 308 I had that loved the 125 gr Nosler BT's over a load of 3031. It shot them great but a shoulder shot on a whitetail would sometimes make the meat bloodshot all the way to the hind quarters. I found out later that it liked the heavier bullets too. Back on topic, take the 458 and have a great time with it. You'll do fine.

[bulletstuffer]

We hunt for fun as much as for food these days  IMO if you've got it shoot it  When you pull out the big bore with those lincoln log cartriges it makes for some good conversations around the camp fire  The only reason I haven't shot a deer with one so far is because I don't own one...yet

Have fun,

Bulletstuffer

[painted horse]

A 350gr. bullet at 2750fps, and a 500gr at 2600?? WOW, just WOW..yeah, that should work just fine..please do not tell me "and the recoil wasn't bad" Bravo Sierra, that HAS to be a Mike Tyson "noogie"...

[Range Rider]

I agree with Wyo. Coyote Hunter 190%.  When you are in high country and the heart is pumpin and the body is thumpin a light rifle is like a feather in the wind.  I will pack that extra weight.  I think so called light weight Mtn rifles are like fishing lures they are made to appeal to the buyer not the fish.

[jro45]

My 458 Lott weighs 10 LBS. Thats with a scope and a sling. And when I fire it the recoil
doesn't hurt me at all. It has 74 ft lbs of recoil

[mrussel]

I agree with Wyo. Coyote Hunter 190%.  When you are in high country and the heart is pumpin and the body is thumpin a light rifle is like a feather in the wind.  I will pack that extra weight.  I think so called light weight Mtn rifles are like fishing lures they are made to appeal to the buyer not the fish.

 I gotta wonder if there isn't another analogy there with fishing lures. Every time I walk into sporting goods stores,it always strikes me how many different kinds of lures they had. If any of them worked that much better than all the others,there would be only a few,most like the ones that work that much better. Take worms for instance. Most places have one little refrigerator full of worms. There are only a few kinds if that,but if not,there are just night-crawlers. They work,damn good!
 It just seems there are all sorts of rifles out there,and everyone has their favorite that is a must have,and they claim is 1000 times better than everyone elses,but I wonder if the Elk really cares if he gets shot with some sort of magnum that kicks like a mule,or my 8mm surplus Turkish Mauser,or some guys 30-06 that his grandfather used to hunt those same Elk,in that sample place,50 years ago. If it puts a hole in an Elk at 250 yards, whether the stock is plastic or wood or fiberglass and how much it weights and how much it recoils seems like the debate over what color of spinners lures to buy (I like the red and white ones that come in a three pack at walmart for 98 cents,for the obvious reasons),its really a matter of which I like best,but all the fish cares about is that there is a damn hook stuck in his mouth.