9.3x62 better than 35 whelen

[Reverend Recoil]

9.3mm, 286 gr. Priv Partizan bullets are availible from Graffs & Sons.  They are low cost and perform well.

[jcn59]

I used them with no complaints at all.   Since then I have bought their loaded ammo in 7.55 Swiss & would buy again.  Good brass, too.

[Drilling Man]

  I've never understood why anyone would need a zillion bullet choises for any cartridge?  I've been shooting a .338-06 since the 70's, and i've settled on two different bullets.

  I've been shooting a 9.3x74R since about 1980, (same velocity as the 9.3x62) and i've settled on two different bullets...

  I don't care if there was 100 choises for each one, i still would only use one or two for all of my hunting.

  Same with the 30-06...  LOT'S of choises, but i've only used two or three different ones for all of my hunting.

  DM

[jcn59]

I shoot recreationally as well as hunt.  That means I probably shoot at least ten times as much as a person who just hunts.   The bullets that I hunt with usually don't shoot as well as the match grade target bullets.   Different rifles shoot better with different bullets.  I enjoy chasing the best accuracy some of my rifles can deliver.   As for big game hunting, I have four .35 cal. rifles, each in a different chambering.   Each has  a specific job, each with a similar but different bullet.

Is it all totally necessary, no, but I enjoy it, & it helps keep the bullet companies competitive.   Still, if I was limited to just one hunting bullet, it's hard to fault the old style Remington Core-lokt.  

What's your favorite?

[Old Moss]

  Morning Gents'

Well figured I would bring this one back up cause I am not sure we stayed on Track.  The original question was

Which do you think is better.  Well they are both great!  But here is why I choose the 9.3x62.

Well it appears to "Kill" better.  I don't know why but she does.  When you compare 35 Whelen 250gr sptzr with a 9.3x62 286gr sptz  the killing effects seem to be closure to the 375 H&H not the Whelen.  I call it the Elmer Keith syndrome Big bullet move at the right velocity.

Another factor - my two 35 Whelens both had head space issues (I do not know why but they did),  My three 9.3x62s never have.  Maybe the dimensions are just enough different to negate this in the 9.3 ? 

35 Whelen:  Case head = .472  /  Shoulder angle 17 deg 30'  /  Case Shoulder Diam = .441

9.3x62:  Case head = .476  /  Shoulder angle 17 deg 30'  /  Case Shoulder Diam = .451

Another interesting note is folks trying to make 9.3x62 Brass out of 30-06 brass.  Please note that the 30-06 brass has a case head diam = .470,  The 9.3x62 has a case head = .476  Isn't that a possible issue? 

Just my two cents.  Thanks Daman, This is very interesting and relevant discussion for hunters/shooters     Old Moss

[mrussel]

.
The 9.3 is more powerful but when you look at case design
it is hard to believe that this cartridge is from 1905 because
of it very modern shape. I make my case's from 30-06 same
as 35 whelen, same powder and primers just the bullet is
bigger. The bullet: .366 bullets most are made stronger than
.35's. I have seen people load a 35 rem. bullet in a whelen.
Since my 9.3x62, I no longer have .35's or .375's.

 Of course it also looks like an 06 or an 8mm Mauser. Really,those two pretty much wrote the book and not a lot has really changed to make them obsolete. (I understand that the 06 is a knock off,or improvement depending on how you look at it,of the 8mm Mauser) I do find it interesting when I think about how little has changed with ammunition since the 1800s. The last big advance was smokeless powder,and jacketed bullets and spitzers. After that there are significant improvements in the actions of the weapons,but not really in the effectiveness of each individual bullet when fired. I know there are a tons of these super premium bullets out there,and they are very nice,but the very fact that there are so many and everyone has their favorite and thinks its a mile better than all the others tells me that there is no clear winner and the advantage is incremental rather revolutionary. In other words,any new advance that does not become pervasive I suspect is a minor improvement at best. Jacketed spitzers driven by smokeless powder are everywhere,as are plastic framed handguns and pump action shotguns. Trounds and Gyrojets were cool and H&K did alot of very interesting work with caseless ammo,but none of those things really made it. (althought somtimes an idea gets reinvented when technology improves enough to make its advantages overcome its shortcomings,so who knows) I sure would love to get my hands on a Gyrojet and a box of ammo that wasnt a collectors item so I wouldnt feel like I was destroying a piece of history shooting it)

[kombi1976]

Morning Gents'
Well figured I would bring this one back up cause I am not sure we stayed on Track.  The original question was
Which do you think is better. 

Mossy, the obvious answer is 9.3x62 because I say so. 

[Coyote Hunter]

9.3x62 or .35 Whelen?

Both are great cartridges.  Made my decision for my next custom – neither one.  Instead it will be a .375 Ruger or, more likely, a .338-.375 Ruger.

[nomosendero]

9.3x62 or .35 Whelen?

Both are great cartridges.  Made my decision for my next custom – neither one.  Instead it will be a .375 Ruger or, more likely, a .338-.375 Ruger.

CH, either would be great, interested to see how this goes!!

[WyoStillhunter]

I have experience with exactly one 35 Whelen (Rem. 700 Classic) and no experience with the 9.3.

My Whelen has done everything I have ever asked of it as a hunting rifle: whitetail, mule deer, antelope, elk, and mountain lion.  There has never been a problem with headspace and any reasonably assembled handload shoots under 2 MOA.  That is better than I can hold under field conditions so it is plenty of accuracy for practical use.

That said, I don't believe either is better or best.  They are roughly equivalent in performance in the field, they both can be had in good quality rifles, and either will handle 95+% of any North American big game hunting need.

Given minimal differences between two choices I figure we can all convince ourselves of the "bestness" of whichever one we choose whether it's guns, cars, or candy bars. 

[nicholst55]

I honestly think that if a mainstream bullet manufacturer would cowboy up and start making affordable controlled expansion bullets in  .358", this discussion would be a moot point.  I realize that Nosler makes Partition bullets in this diameter, but have you ever tried to find any?

[kombi1976]

Well, you can always use Woodleighs.
They make all the following weights....

225gr RN SN
225gr PP SN
225gr FMJ
250gr RN SN
250 rg PP SN
275gr PP SN
310gr FMJ

The PP SN is a Protected Point, similar to a Mag Tip.
As you can see they even make FMJs, although they're more suited to 358 Norma Mags.
I admit that Woodleighs are probably pricey but so are Noslers, at least in my neck of the woods.
And do you want to shirk on the cost of a bonded core bullet.
You're only using it if you're after something tough and special.
Here's Midway's stock:
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=7284&categoryString=9315***652***19785***9016***&brandId=1334

[Drilling Man]

  I've seen 35 cal NP's in shops, but i've NEVER seen Woodleighs.  Actually i don't remember seeing Woodleighs in any diameter.

  Everyone loves to argue cartridges that use bullets that are close to the same diameter.  The truth is, it's all about the bullet, not the diameter.

  Back in the day, i used .358" diameter bullets on the biggest big game and wasn't real happy with them.  I switched to .338" diameter bullets at the same velocity, and was thrilled with how they performed.  So much so, that i sold the 35 cal. rifles that i had, and went to 338's with great success.

  So the poster above that commented on bullet performance has it spot on!  It's MUCH more about the "bullet" than it is about the diameter.

  DM

[mrussel]

 I've never understood why anyone would need a zillion bullet choises for any cartridge?  I've been shooting a .338-06 since the 70's, and i've settled on two different bullets.

  I've been shooting a 9.3x74R since about 1980, (same velocity as the 9.3x62) and i've settled on two different bullets...

  I don't care if there was 100 choises for each one, i still would only use one or two for all of my hunting.

  Same with the 30-06...  LOT'S of choises, but i've only used two or three different ones for all of my hunting.

  DM

I dont need a zillion,I just need them to have the ONE that I want. If there are many choices,then its more likely the one I want will be available. If there are few,its less likely.

[nicholst55]

Well, you can always use Woodleighs.

True; I had forgotten about Woodleigh bullets.  Hungtington Die Specialties also stocks them, FWIW.

http://www.huntingtons.com/bullets_woodleigh.html

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've never understood why anyone would need a zillion bullet choises for any cartridge?  I've been shooting a .338-06 since the 70's, and i've settled on two different bullets.

  I've been shooting a 9.3x74R since about 1980, (same velocity as the 9.3x62) and i've settled on two different bullets...

  I don't care if there was 100 choises for each one, i still would only use one or two for all of my hunting.

  Same with the 30-06...  LOT'S of choises, but i've only used two or three different ones for all of my hunting.

  DM

That's a really good point, I'm the same way, I settle on one or two bullets out of the many available.  However, I imagine that if the bullet options are minimal you might have a cartridge where you don't really like any of the bullets available.  Or the ones that you do like are mega-pricey because the manufacturer can't run 'em in big lots.  Or maybe there is a certain .308" bullet that you REALLY love in your .30-06 but it isn't made in .358" or .366".

Pretty much the whole reason the .338-06 exists is to take advantage of the .338" bullet selection made popular by the large .338 Win Mag market.  Other than that the .338-06 is too similar to the .35 Whelen. 

[kombi1976]

The difference between the 338-06 and both the 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 is that most of the .338" bullets out there are designed for cartridges with siginificantly more powder behind them.
They're designed tougher and as a result aren't as happy performing at lower velocities.
The .358" and .366" bullets, however, are both designed with '06 sized cases in mind and sub-magnum velocities and so are ideal for their applications.
That was one of my main suspicions about the 338 Federal which of course operates with an even smaller case that the 338-06.
In fact some lighter, less tough bullets had to be specially manufacturered for the Federal.
But we're straying from the point.
Let's say that the projectiles in 358 and 9.3mm are designed specifically for these 2 classic cartridges in a way more modern cartridges and wildcats aren't.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Kombi,

That's a good point, but I don't think it is valid in the situation with the .338-06.  The super magnums are not designed because the .30-06 is too weak inside 100 yards, the main purpose of the magnums is to increase the effective range of the weapon because the .30-06 is not enough at 400 yards.

In other words the bullets designed for the .338 Win Mag velocities are intended to expand at 400 yards.  The Win Mag velocity at 400 yards is about the same as the .338-06 at 300 yards.  So the bullets designed to perform from muzzle to 400 yards in a Win Mag will perform just as well from muzzle to 300 yards in a .338-06. 

If anything the very real risk of putting a bullet intended for a .35 Rem into a .35 Whelen case may create problems in dangerous game scenarios.   

[Con]

If anything the very real risk of putting a bullet intended for a .35 Rem into a .35 Whelen case may create problems in dangerous game scenarios.    

When Remington released the 35Whelen to market with 200gr and 250gr ammunition, they compromised the original intent which was a cheaper big game rifle than a 375H&H applicable to larger Nth American dangerous game. If a 275gr had been brought to market (as originally produced by Hornady) then the 35Whelen would have been the 9.3s equal ... but you wont sell 275gr factory loads to American deer hunters. Out of interest ... how many elk/moose capable cartridges with a case capacity of 30/06 or larger size, DO NOT have a factory load available where one of the factory projectiles has an SD of around 0.300?

The 35Whelen is hardly original anyway ... the Germans trumped it with the 9x63. But given similar projectile weights ... you wont tell the difference as to whether a critter was killed with a 9.3 or 35.
Cheers...
Con

[kombi1976]

In other words the bullets designed for the .338 Win Mag velocities are intended to expand at 400 yards.  The Win Mag velocity at 400 yards is about the same as the .338-06 at 300 yards.  So the bullets designed to perform from muzzle to 400 yards in a Win Mag will perform just as well from muzzle to 300 yards in a .338-06.

So the trajectory of a 338 Win Mag is identical to a 338-06?
I doubt it.
And I also doubt that all people hunting with a 338 Win Mag restrict themselves to 400yd shots.
I'd say many also like the additional hitting power close up too.
However hot you may load a 338-06 you still have less powder than the Win Mag.
You can't fight physics. 

If anything the very real risk of putting a bullet intended for a .35 Rem into a .35 Whelen case may create problems in dangerous game scenarios.   

Well, that's the choice of the hand loader.
It also reinforces the fact that the 35 Whelen is not a dangerous game cartridge in the same way 9.3x62 or 375 H&H are.
In comparing the 9.3x62 and the Whelen it is very much a "horses for courses" situation.
One was designed for hunters in the North America who mainly hunted bear, deer, elk and moose.
The other was designed for German farmers in Africa who needed to harvest local antelope and deer species for meat but also needed the power to stop the big 5 should the situation arise.
The '62 is far from ideal as an elephant or rhino gun but at least it was designed to take on the task if necessity called.
On a side note guides who take hunters to shoot water buffalo in Australia's north consider the 9.3x62 ample to take down buffalo but they discourage the use of 338 Win Mags unless very heavy bullets are used at moderate velocities.
I've never heard of a Whelen being suggested for buffalo here and I daresay a guide would strongly recommend a hunter find a more suitable calibre.

[Con]

Well, that's the choice of the hand loader.
It also reinforces the fact that the 35 Whelen is not a dangerous game cartridge in the same way 9.3x62 or 375 H&H are.

Sorry, I'm not letting that one pass. The 35Whelen is equally as applicable with appropriate projectiles as is the 9.3 and 375H&H. Nobody would consider hunting dangerous game with a 270Speer in the 9.3 or a 220gr Hornady in the 375H&H.

Where appropriate projectiles are selected ... all will do the job. But legalities rule the 35Whelen out of much of Africa. If African and dangerous game is the criteria you set on 'good and bad' ... how does the 350Rigby Magnum and 350Rigby (400/350NE) compare given that those ballistics are easily matched in a Whelen?

The Whelen was meant to give the boltgun man a rifle adequate for the larger Nth Amercan bears and moose without going to the expense of a 375H&H, or into a lever gun with the 405Win. How does a Brown bear size up in weight to an African lion? The Whelen's focus was certainly North America, but the 9.3 perhaps was equally as focused on driven hunting in Europe as it was in the German colonies.

Is one better than the other ... not really ... but one is now viewed as a 'light bullet' gun, whilst the other remains a 'heavy bullet' gun. It'd be interesteding to know how many 232gr 9.3mm projectiles are sold in the USA.
Cheers...
Con

[kombi1976]

Con, my point still stands.
If the projectile does not exist to make a specific cartridge suitable for a specific type of hunting then it's not suitable for that sort of hunting.
Yes, some premium companies make heavier .358" pills but these are generally for the 358 Norma Mag.
However good a 35 Whelen maybe on brown bear is immaterial in Africa.
And you said it.....

Is one better than the other ... not really ... but one is now viewed as a 'light bullet' gun, whilst the other remains a 'heavy bullet' gun.

That's the reality and it's the reason why the Whelen remains an excellent choice for big game but a less wise choice for dangerous game.
The obsession with speed and lighter bullets tends to be one that has inspired American cartridge designers whilst the Europeans go heavy for calibre and with big animals muzzle velocity is not everything.
For the record the 9.3x62 was designed primarily with Africa in mind.
It's popularity in Europe was secondary and mainly because of its success in Africa.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Kombi,

No.  The .338-06 is slower than the .338 WM.  If you reread what I posted I stated that the .338WM velocity at 400 yds is about the same as the .338-06 velocity at 300 yds.  What that means is the Win Mag is starting out faster than the -06.  Nowhere did I even imply that Win Mag shooter would limit themselves to 400 yard shots.

Just looking at some velocity figures from ammo company websites you'll find that the Win Mag is traveling at something just under 2000 fps at 400 yards.  And the same bullet from an -06 is traveling about the same velocity at 300 yards.  If said bullet is designed to expand at impact velocities between 3000 and 1800 fps, then that bullet will be good in a Win Mag for anything from muzzle to 400 yards.  However, the same bullet will function just fine from an -06 from muzzle to 300 yards. 

So the main advantage of the Win Mag is the extra 100 yards of effective range (flatter trajectories).  The fact that the Win Mag produces 3700 ft-lbs at the muzzle vs 3200 ft-lbs in the -06 has not practical advantage, except perhaps stopping a charge. 

[Drilling Man]

In other words the bullets designed for the .338 Win Mag velocities are intended to expand at 400 yards.  The Win Mag velocity at 400 yards is about the same as the .338-06 at 300 yards.  So the bullets designed to perform from muzzle to 400 yards in a Win Mag will perform just as well from muzzle to 300 yards in a .338-06.

So the trajectory of a 338 Win Mag is identical to a 338-06?
I doubt it.
And I also doubt that all people hunting with a 338 Win Mag restrict themselves to 400yd shots.
I'd say many also like the additional hitting power close up too.
However hot you may load a 338-06 you still have less powder than the Win Mag.
You can't fight physics. 

  Gee, i understood what he was saying.  He was saying the .338-06 does at 300 yards, ABOUT what the .338 Win. Mag. does at 400.  Seems reasonable to me.

  And doubt all you want, but i limited myself to less that 400 yard shots back when i hunted with a .338 Win. Mag., and also when i hunted with a .340 Wby., as i'm a hunter NOT a sniper.

  DM

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

When Remington released the 35Whelen to market with 200gr and 250gr ammunition, they compromised the original intent which was a cheaper big game rifle than a 375H&H applicable to larger Nth American dangerous game. If a 275gr had been brought to market (as originally produced by Hornady) then the 35Whelen would have been the 9.3s equal ... but you wont sell 275gr factory loads to American deer hunters. Out of interest ... how many elk/moose capable cartridges with a case capacity of 30/06 or larger size, DO NOT have a factory load available where one of the factory projectiles has an SD of around 0.300?

What you say makes sense.  But I do know that Double Tap sells a .35 Whelen loaded with 300 grain bullet.  That's over .300 SD.  Also Federal discontinued their .35 Whelen offering which had a 225 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but they brought it back because there was such an outcry from Americans who took that load to Africa.  It's a bit of a bummer to reloaders as the TBBC is a very fine bullet but Federal seems to buy up all that Speer makes.

[Drilling Man]

Con, my point still stands.
If the projectile does not exist to make a specific cartridge suitable for a specific type of hunting then it's not suitable for that sort of hunting.
Yes, some premium companies make heavier .358" pills but these are generally for the 358 Norma Mag.
However good a 35 Whelen maybe on brown bear is immaterial in Africa.
And you said it.....

  I'm not a big Whelen fan, but to discount it, saying it's a poor choise for Africa because it wasn't "designed" for Africa is kinda dumb.

  If the premium bullets today are designed for the 358 mag., (and i bet you that's isn't completely true) then they would be just a little tougher out of a Whelen, and that would make them an even BETTER bullet for African DG.

  At this point you are just splitting hairs and trying to make a case for YOUR way of thinking.

  DM

[jcn59]

The MAIN reason the 9.3 was developed was to provide a powerful rifle to people who couldn't afford to buy a double rifle or a magnum-length bolt gun.  It came to be because it was cheaper to produce, not because it was "better". 

I handload for both the .35 and 9.3 and I don't see any practical difference.  This is sounding like a .270 vs the 30-06 arguement.

[kombi1976]

No.  The .338-06 is slower than the .338 WM.  If you reread what I posted I stated that the .338WM velocity at 400 yds is about the same as the .338-06 velocity at 300 yds.  What that means is the Win Mag is starting out faster than the -06.  Nowhere did I even imply that Win Mag shooter would limit themselves to 400 yard shots.

Ok, I apologise, I missed the 400 and 300 yard difference.
But I reckon the criticism still stands.
A bullet designed to stay together under the crazy velocities of the 338 Win Mag, 338 RUM, 340 Wby Mag and the even more insane 338 Lapua is not ideal for a slower cartridge.
You won't change my mind on that and it's all pretty pointless to argue here as thread isn't discussing that question.

At this point you are just splitting hairs and trying to make a case for YOUR way of thinking.

You're absolutely right.
That's called a debate, and this thread is currently debating this subject.

The MAIN reason the 9.3 was developed was to provide a powerful rifle to people who couldn't afford to buy a double rifle or a magnum-length bolt gun.  It came to be because it was cheaper to produce, not because it was "better".

No, it wasn't "better" than a double or a magnum but it was a lot cheaper and more flexible.
And what was the Whelen designed to be??
Cheaper than a 375H&H to be used on bear.
What we're arguing here is which of the "cheaper" cartridges is better.
My belief is that FOR DANGEROUS GAME the 9.3x62 is better.
I don't push any other point, only this one.
I'm not playing "coulda, woulda, shoulda" on potential with the right bullets.
The 9.3mm is almost universally loaded with bullets ideal for toppling bad tempered beasts.
The Whelen, for the most part, isn't.
The Speer TBBC must be great bullets but while big antelope like kudu and eland also take a lot of stopping they aren't dangerous game.
At one stage I considered getting a Whelen but ended up not getting one, not because they are less capable, but because something else came up.
Would my 9.3x62 be my first choice against Asiatic water buffalo?
No, because I own a 450/400 NE 3".
But it's well up to the job.

I'm gonna finish this post with something you guys should consider before replying.
We're talking here about cartridges and their suitability for different jobs.
I'm into VWs and the old ones can get places you wouldn't believe.
Rear engines and low gearing can pull a 2wd up bad places.
But if I HAD to get to a place in the middle of nowhere on terrible terrain and it was really important I'd want a Land Rover Defender or a Toyota Troop Carrier.
I think you get my point, not that I'm suggesting a Whelen is akin to a '60s VW.
But the fact remains that "can do" is not the same as "will do".

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

This is sounding like a .270 vs the 30-06 arguement.

Or to make it even sillier; maybe like a .270 vs. .280 argument. 

[kombi1976]

Now, c'mon, everyone knows the 280 is better........