Author Topic: new bronze (Read 64940 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #450 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:14:35 PM »

Quote from: gulfcoastblackpowder on July 21, 2010, 01:52:37 PM

...
To get the general gist of an image, those sizes are fine, but if you really want to look at details, the larger the image the better. Obviously the best way to deal with this on a forum is to have a linked image, so those with slower connections or low res monitors don't have to see the higher resolution pictures.
....

I'm now posting a reduced image for which I have the larger immage. For sanitiy I copy the 1.2meg jpg and name it the same with " -- " after it, then scale it down. That way both sort in sequence in the directory and if I need the larger I look to the file name of the smaller and search. I also put the YYYYMMDD as the first part of the file name which helps greatly in sorting.

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #451 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:22:14 PM »

This forum's settings automatically resize my photobucket links in the post, but by clicking on them you can get the full size that is on photobucket, which isn't necessarily the full size I have, but it's certainly a lot better than the reduced size. I really like this setup because it provides the best of both - general idea for browsers, but plenty of detail for anyone wanting more. I'm also not terribly concerned about copyright - if someone wants my pics for their personal use, feel free. If you want to use them commercially, ask.

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #452 on:** July 21, 2010, 05:32:25 PM »

I don't have any issue with how this forum resizes pictures - quite the contrary. As I said in the other post, I like having the resized image, which allows faster loading and an easier format to view them than if they were full size. I like having access to the full size image though, if I want a closer look. For what it's worth, I do see a difference.

I was not trying to get into a discussion about it. Just stating my viewpoint in response to Dans, yours, and CWs. The last thing I wanted to do was to take this thread off topic.

That said, thanks for putting up the larger images. Unfortunately, fototime doesn't like me, so I can't get them to view any larger than the "large" setting they have.

Double D · « **Reply #453 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:23:26 PM »

You should be able to click on the picture and it will be come full size. I have a message in to the Fototime help desk to see if there is something wrong.

A question for Dan, Morko, the old, could you tell how he was Made? Working the pictures it appears there might be some forging of the butt socket. The markings are engravings. and a portion of the barrel does appear cast. The lower hook in one picture appears brazed on.
Looks like some filing in a couple of spots.

CGBP, what I am saying about pictures, we don't have control and we agree with you, and we are just trying to point you to a place where your viewpont can be meaningfully expressed wit the greatest benefit.

dan610324 · « **Reply #454 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:47:48 PM »

sorry guys but I didnt remember to check the size of the bore
guess I was a bit excited

but all the external dimensions on your copy gary is extremely similar to the original
so it wouldnt be difficult to check the flat to flat distance and compare that to the muzzle picture of the original
but it was hughe
by todays standard I would never even come close to get the idea to fire anything with the original dimensions

to make a good shooter I would bore it to somewhere in between 1/2" and 5/8" with a 3/8" chamber approximately 1" long
with such an small chamber diameter you could do it a bit deeper
maybe 1/4" deeper and still have doubble the chamber diameter between the bottom of the powder chamber and the bottom of the hole from the back
and with a 3/8 chamber you would have approximately 1,25 times the chamber diameter as the wall thickness surrounding the chamber

the original didnt have any chamber and that surprised me a lot , but when you look at the tests that the austrian man made with the tannenberg gonnes and different powder its clear that they had a hughe benefit from the chambers compared to a straight bore .

as usual just my personal opinion

Double D · « **Reply #455 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:57:34 PM »

Okay I edited my profile in fototime and you will be able to make the picture the full size and right click. I had them turned off in my profile.

Because of an issue with photo hijacking I have removed the link to the pictures. If you wish to see the complete album please contact me.

Remember these are Dan's pictures and you may not copy or use them without his permission.

dan610324 · « **Reply #456 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:07:00 PM »

the original is cast in one piece
probably with a sghtly undersized core for the bore
but the bore is reamed or drilled in some way after the casting
probably made with some kind of hand tool , but it gave an extremely good surface
me and Charlotte did actually have a discussion just about the perfect shape and surface of the bore
hope she will jump in here and make some comments, I gave her the address to this forum
I know she was in here just a few days before I was to stockholm, she checked out a few photos while we was talking on the phone
yes there are some filing marks on it , but Im almost 101% sure that the engraving was done directly in the wax and all decorations was directly in the casting
bronze is easy to cast and have perfect result even in very tiny details
dont think that any experianced craftsman would do any engraving after the casting was done
its easier to work in soft wax than in hard bronze

KABAR2 · « **Reply #457 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:51:06 PM »

Dan,

Those are some great photo's and we actually get to see what you look like too!
of course you had to have all those glass cases with the scale armor in the background
those looked interesting in and of themselves.

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #458 on:** July 22, 2010, 01:00:10 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 21, 2010, 06:57:34 PM

Okay I edited my profile in fototime and you will be able to make the picture the full size and right click. I had them turned off in my profile.

Here is the link to the Photo's Dan sent me Morko

Yep...it's working fine for me now! I'll get them later, I've got to go to work.

I was checking out the armour in the background as well. It's been too long since I've been to a proper museum...

RocklockI · « **Reply #459 on:** July 22, 2010, 02:48:01 PM »

Today Mike , Barry and I went shooting today . Barry is my brother ....yep Gary and Barry ....it's a hoot and has been for 52 years too !

I became one of few to fire Morko with lead balls in about ...... not sure , noone could be but 500 years is what I'll guess .. .62 caliber 50 grains 3f .

It was abit bit too much , 25 was just a poof , BUT I did put in a chamber because I didnt like the barrel wall thickness without it .

The chamber is 1/2 " by @ 1.5" it holds 50 grains . YES I will try 2f but 50grs 3f rang its bell ...Boomaaar ing ginggggg .

It was the oddest thing I ever tried to shoot ........ way ...! Compared to Morko a bess is a sniper gun Par Excell .

Mike actually had the gonne go boom ! ....... wait .... wait for it .... ..... ... ... .. . whack! it sounded like a solid hit !

we walked 20 feet to the target .... nothing , no explanation ? No trace of ball on ....anything . It is a mystery .

Great fun , oh yea the buss is a cannon .

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #460 on:** July 22, 2010, 05:39:41 PM »

Yeper, it'll hold it's own. Because I was firing mine with a linstock, I shot it with a battery of cannon, and it certainly didn't disappoint. I wasn't firing lead through it, though. That will come, but so far only making noise. Aiming is interesting with it for certain. I've seen many different methods for holding handgonne, but I'm not sure what the best technique would be for aiming. It feels natural under the arm, though resting the shaft on top of the shoulder may give better sighting. No question shooting from the hip would take a while to develop, as it offers no sight line at all. You may want to experiment to find out what works best.

I'm not sure there were any set rules for it historically. Generally, you'd probably use it to shoot one or two people out of a group, then beat at least 10 times that many using it as a club.

Double D · « **Reply #461 on:** July 22, 2010, 06:24:19 PM »

I have often wondered if these thing were aimed at a target or an area?

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #462 on:** July 23, 2010, 12:43:13 AM »

Though I haven't fired a live round out of mine yet, it seems to me that with some practice, and experienced handgonner could place a ball pretty close to his mark within reasonable distances. It is a very short barrel, so anything out of a typical pistol range would be iffy. Think of it like a deringer - it's one shot, so wait til you absolutely need to fire, and plan on doing some scuffling.

I think if there were armamants of several of these rather than a lone gonne, you'd probably form a firing line and just shoot at the area. These are the beginnings of firearms, and as such, most of the users would be trained more in hand-to-hand combat than shooting, and would tend to rely on those instincts, even if the accuracy of the gonne was good, and especially if they had reliability issues.

Victor3 · « **Reply #463 on:** July 23, 2010, 01:40:15 AM »

Hey Dan,

I know you've given info in various posts on the Morko before, but if you have time, could you give us a quick history lesson on it in one post? How old it's believed to be, where/when/how it was found, name of museum it's in, what group of people is speculated to have made and used it, who they shot at with it, metallurgical info, etc?

I remember some of the above, but not all. I'm sure new people coming here and reading this post would be interested to know more about it.

dan610324 · « **Reply #464 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:37:16 AM »

mörkö was found southeast of stockholm by 2 fishermen while they was net fishing in the archpelago of stockholm , its called the Mörkö cannon because it was found just outside the island Mörkö
Im not exactly sure when it was found ( age and memory

) , but I think it was 1820 or 1821
sorry 1828 it was , checked it up now and edited
its located at the historical museum in stockholm
its difficult to date it , but today they think its from approximately 1370 +/- 10 years
for what I know of there havent been any analysis made of the metal composition
I was actually looking for any evidence that any sample had been taking from it when I was examinating the gun , but wasnt able to find anything that looked as if that had been done
Charlotte didnt think it ever had been done

I dont know if there is any official speculations of who had made it or why
we talked a little about it during the lunch and she agreed on my and garys theory that the head could be jesus as the writing on it is from ave maria .
but who made it and why ? no idea at all , cant be more than speculations .

could be a priest or a noble man , at least someone with money .
any ordinary person couldnt afford to have it made
at the time when it was made the church had the idea to try to christian the world ,
with weapons if neccesary .
remember the crusades
so your idea is as good as my , there is very little "facts" about it by obvious reasons.
what happened from it was made until it was found can only be speculations

check the pdf , its in swedish but I guess you would be able to translate it with any translation program
there is also some very interesting photos and drawings there

RocklockI · « **Reply #465 on:** July 23, 2010, 08:42:30 AM »

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #466 on:** July 23, 2010, 01:19:10 PM »

Perhaps with a clean target you may have been able to see it better...

Of course, nothing wrong with a few holes through a target, either!

I really like the ring that you get from shooting bronze barrels!

dan610324 · « **Reply #467 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:20:55 PM »

its always a nice ring in bronze , thats why its used in bells
but bell bronze got much higher tin content
up to 30%
if you used that alloy for a barrel it would explode
the more tin , the brighter tone
and much more brittle

thats why the swedes always took all church bells during the wars in the 17th century
copper we had in sweden , but no tin .
so a 1 ton bell could be melted and 2 ton of copper was added and they got 3 ton cannon bronze

RocklockI · « **Reply #468 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:36:23 PM »

It surprised me about the ring , and it sounded like the ball hit a metal bit . There was no metal other than the ball invovled .

Dan if you hold your Morko by the rearend on the socket and tap the Jebus ....(sorry jebus) on the noggan with a hard tool he'll sing like a bird ! wooden tool will do it !

Next time we go shooting I'll have a proper tiller to grasp . Plus I'll leave all other guns at home and try and learn to shoot Morko .

I am intriged too as to how they where used . I've seen a painting with the gonners right up by the fort in front of or at least even with archers men at arms and everyone else .

I believe they were at the front of the line . Any further back than nessesary .......youll miss . and the ball will bounce off . Now I dont really believe Miks ball bounced off ...it was kind of a joke , but we did not see anything that looked like an unacounted for .62 caliber ball .

These are my first impressions and I am aware of those who shoot these types of things with decent accuracy .

Gary

The blast and smoke was proly more effective in rattling 13 century nerves than any real damage .

Victor3 · « **Reply #469 on:** July 24, 2010, 01:33:16 AM »

Thanks, Dan.

Do you know if it's ever been on public display at the museum, or if they plan on displaying it in the future?

Searching the word, I found something interesting. My Grandparents on Mom's side were Finnish immigrants to the US. In Finnish, Mörkö translates to 'bogeyman.'

Maybe that's why they keep him locked away. Don't want to scare the children.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #470 on:** July 24, 2010, 04:00:39 AM »

HAH! You're right Victor. It translates from Finnish to "BUGABOO" in English. The same BUGABOO translation from Estonian but Norwegian, Swedish and Danish, it's just MORKO. There has to be an interesting story here. I'm on the case. BTW in Lithuanian, morko means CARROT.

Hands up! This is a stick-up. I've got you covered with my carrot. Give me all of your lettuce.

rc

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #471 on:** July 24, 2010, 05:00:14 AM »

What's up, Doc? Ya mean Bugs Bunny eats Morko's?

thelionspaw · « **Reply #472 on:** July 24, 2010, 05:36:56 AM »

No but in Brooklyn, "lettuce" is "money" as is "cabbage". Try and keep up with me guys.

Now John! I want you to put your matches away in your religious fervor, because I don't want to see any crosses burning in my pasture. Here's one for you to cogitate.

I just looked at a recent image of the morko that was posted and it is clear to me that it illustrates a symbiotic relationship between the "Elder Faith" and "Christianity".....which was/is a common thread.

The linear figure at the breech, translates to, "EARTH" in the old Norse vernacular. I'm sure some of you realized this already but I just saw it.

I do not keep-up with the forum on a steady basis and return to the real world on occasion, for which I am constantly being harangued by BoomJ.

If I can see what has been eluded to as "imperfect latin", mentioning "Ave Maria", I may be able to translate what is on the gun.

One never knows; do one?

Richard The Heretic

dan610324 · « **Reply #473 on:** July 24, 2010, 06:09:50 AM »

mörkö in swedish is 2 words put together
mörk , meaning dark in english , and ö mean island .
so it would mean dark island if making a direct translation into english from the swedish words

finnish and estonian is not related in any way to the swedish language , as a swede I dont understand one word when I listen to finnish or estonian

swedish , norwegian and danish is very similar languages
norwegian and swedish even more than danish and swedish

just remember that the scandinavian alphabet got 3 more letters than the english , Å Ä AND Ö (åäö)

every now and then they change objects thats in the different exhibitions and makes a total change of the exhibition object theme also every now and then
they got so much objects in their collection that they cant show everything at the same time
so mörkö have been on display and will be again , but who knows when ?? I dont .
as you could see in the photos the loshult cannon was on display now
its in a exhibition named history of sweden, its 1000 years of swedish history .
from 11th century to present time

http://www.historiska.se/home/

thats the web address to the historical museum , lots of interesting things there to read and look at .

in the upper on the page you can change it to english

ok you guys who owns a mörkö , put in your safes so bugs bunny doesnt come by and eat it for you

edited: sorry guys , dont know why the link wasnt a clickable one

thelionspaw · « **Reply #474 on:** July 24, 2010, 06:24:55 AM »

Simple enough. The Swedes call it the "Dark Island" to keep the Finns and Estonians (and others) away. Apparently it worked well with the Finns and Estonians, who put the Swedish word in their vocabulary, to mean "Boogyman" or "Bugaboo". It's like a Swedish "NO TRESSPASSING" sign.

rc

Victor3 · « **Reply #475 on:** July 26, 2010, 01:09:04 AM »

Quote from: dan610324 on July 23, 2010, 02:37:16 AM

I dont know if there is any official speculations of who had made it or why
we talked a little about it during the lunch and she agreed on my and garys theory that the head could be jesus as the writing on it is from ave maria . but who made it and why ? no idea at all , cant be more than speculations .

Good news! I've found the definitive, speculative answer on exactly who the head on the Morko represents!

Are you ready?

The head is of a previous (to the making of the Morko) 11th century beloved Pope, not Jesus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Victor_III

And I've got yer 'proof positive' right here...

Would you like me to grant you absolution, my child?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #476 on:** July 26, 2010, 01:38:16 AM »

Hmmmmm.

Victor3 now becomes VictorIII.

Blackpowder in Europe circa 1000 ad ?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

little seacoast · « **Reply #477 on:** July 26, 2010, 12:39:07 PM »

You get points for originality and research. However, this rank heresy can only be confirmed by the efforts of Mr. Peabody, his boy Sherman and the WAYBACK machine, despite the evidence presented. And yes, please bless us anyway!

RocklockI · « **Reply #478 on:** July 26, 2010, 12:58:15 PM »

Tristle Trastle Trusal Tromb Time for this one to come home !

I know , I know , it was Mr Wizzard and not Sherman ........

thelionspaw · « **Reply #479 on:** August 01, 2010, 05:42:50 AM »

Quote from: Boom J on May 04, 2010, 09:08:23 AM

Thanks Dan, I was just curious; I always just assumed it was a figure of a "Northern Warrior," probably because in our own time it seems a little incongruous to associate Jesus with a weapon.

I read a recent article regarding a U.S. military contractor's stamped-in inappropriate religious wording/sentiment on weapons, that upset the Pentagon. This ("arm chair warrior") manufacturer's personal agenda would have lead to big problems for personnel in the field.

It was spelled-out but I had no interest in retaining it...so I have forgotten the sentiment expressed on the weapon.

Now I have to return to the morko project. I was looking for the referrence to images that were remarked upon in my "Road-Kill" post. I can't find it within these exhausting but fantastic 16 pages.

contractor military (rifle sights?)