777 & Compression ???

[ButlerFord45]

Does anyone know a rule of thumb for the amount of compression one should start load development for 777?  I don't want to reduce charges, I'd like to give 777 a try for what it was designed to do, more power!  Dealing with 45 Colt and 45/70, maybe even a bit of 20 ga.  Any experience, good or bad, appreciated.

[howdy doody]

No compression is what used to be recommended when they came out with that a couple of years ago. I only shoot the 777 in my long range rifles, but that is what I do. I just measure to seat bullet at powder height. If I remember they recommended no fillers either. Now I know folks that download in pistol cartridges with 777 and they use plain old vegtable fibre wads to make up the space between powder and bullet. Would you believe a 15 grain load in 45lc is about all you need for CAS shooting and there is still an adequate amount of smoke too. No lubes, no problem with cleanups either. Hmmmmm, maybe it is time for me to try some pistol cartridge loads again. I had loaded some with my same as BP loads and found it too powerful for me for CAS. I think 777 has a lot of merit. Takes some experimenting is all.

[ButlerFord45]

Thanks Howdy, are you talking about a weighed 15 gr?   Surely that's not volume!!??? :shock:

[howdy doody]

I will ask pard. I don't shoot 45lc and I know the pard that does. He also uses the same load in ROAs, so I think the ROAs are measured by volume and I am sure he loads cartidge with a measure on his press.
I always load 30gr in the ROAs by volume and I tried a 30gr load of 777 and it is way too powerful for CAS to my liking. I had severe muzzle flip, although I can handle the recoil, it was pretty stout.
Now in my 38-55 where I still use 777 for cowboy silhouettesm I had been using 4198 and a load of 22.5 gr and when I switched over to 777 I used weighed loads of 30gr droped from 2 ft drop tube and a milk carton wad to protect the bullet base and a 245gr smokeless lubed bullet and I didn't have to change a single tang sight for the 4 ranges I shoot at. It amazed me. I shoot 40 rounds per match. No cleaning or anything. I like the 777 a lot.
I will see if I can get you a 777 load for 45lc with a bullet weight.

[WD45]

Butlerford... Thanks for asking that question... I was thinking on some T7 loads for the 45LC also  :grin:

[howdy doody]

Butler Ford. Here is what my pard and others use. 45 lc case reg primer. 200gr bullet with smokeless lube, 15gr by weight of 777 and top with corn meal to seat the bullet on top with no air space and slight if any compression. Try that for a starter to see how you like that at 10 yards.  :grin:

[ButlerFord45]

  Howdy, I really appreciate your efforts!!  I don't want you to take what I'm about to say the wrong way:  If I wanted some wimpy load, I'd use unique or bull'seye  or something,  I'm trying to go the other way,  I'm using 37+ grains of FFF Black under a 255 grain bullet now, and it is my understanding that I should be able to get more "Umph" with 777,  this is the direction I'm trying to go.  Don't give up on me, so far you're my only resource!!!  We just need to get on the same stagecoach!  I don't really need this load for CAS, but a little more energy out of the barrel implies many more applications!!   Look Out, Bambi!!!!!      or another 5 or 6 yards for dove or quail, I am moving a lot slower these days and that little extra might keep me in the game???

[howdy doody]

Howdy again Butler Ford. Nawwww, I would never get you wrong. What I did get wrong was the part about CAS. I only shoot CAS myself and in my own small mind had you shooting it too.
Well, you will get a kick out of 37gr worth. I know this from a 30gr load in a ROA. I got plenty of power and I felt like that .457 ball had plenty of zip on it too. I was just playing with 777 in the ROAs as I regularly shoot APP and like the effect of some serious smoke and booooom  :grin:  heh, heh. That is why I shoot BP exclusively these days. It is part of my fun, since I figured out that at 60 years old I am not gonna win any matches and I enjoy the hell out of Cowboy Action Shooting and all my pards that I shoot with too. Then it is fun for me too to dress up as my alter ego and have all I meet know my alias by just looking at my outfit. I would look pretty stupid if i showed up at a skeet shoot with red boots, a plaid shirt and a yeller cowboy hat on. hahahaha. Let's face it we all have our need for some fun with our shooting irons, be it cartridge, C&B or whatever.
You know another fun thing about shooting BP has always been the experimenting and finding just the right combo or way of doing things and that my good friend is another thing I know we both enjoy.  :grin:

[ButlerFord45]

Howdy, I do shoot CAS, in fact that's how my use of black powder and cartridge loading came together.  I've enjoyed C&B revolvers and ML's for years but the thought of putting the stuff in a cartridge just hadn't crossed my mind??     After playing with BP Cartridge's for a year or two, I figured out that it can give some pretty impressive results.  I've gotten to the point that I find Black Powder easier to load than smokless and the only thing in the safe that I don't use black in, at least part of the time, is an old 1100 and 30-06, and the '06's days are numbered!  So the thought of adding another 5 to 10 yards across the board has started intriguing me and the idea of playing with 777 has become more than just a curiosity!
Any and all ideas as to starting loads is greatly appreciated.



Howdy, are you aware that there are at least 16 episodes of "Howdy Doody" are available on 4 CD's- 4 episodes/CD?

[Dan Chamberlain]

Guys;

Just to chime in, I shoot a Navy pistol with 20 grains of 777 and it equals my 25 grain load of bp in power, recoil, accuracy and cleanup is a snap!

Dan C

[howdy doody]

Butler Ford,
I think we are on the same page now pard.  :grin:

Yes, I have the old Howdy episodes including the lost one. I am up on my hero, hahahahha

[ButlerFord45]

Dan thanks for chiming in, quick couple of questions, when you seat the ball on the 777, do you just seat against the powder, or do you go ahead and "firmly seat" the ball, ie crunch a few grains?  And have you used the 25 grain of 777, if so, how did it affect accuracy?

[Roy Cobb]

Butler Ford;
I have been using T7 in cartridge for a bit in 45LC I used 40 GR of 2F with a 250Gr. LRNFP Lasercast bullet this is a bit compressed roughly .125". It was/is a pretty stout cartridge. No sign of Overpressure i.e. flattened primers metal flow etc.

I loaded some rounds with 3F just to try it and they showed signs of overpressure even downloaded to 30 Gr. I am talking flattened or even slightly bulged primers.

I have also used 2F in a 45-120 now you are talking stout lots of punch
but I started downloading it to 85 Gr. as the powder is a bit expensive.
This is with a 550 Gr Montana Precision swaged bullet. This one is compressed too I use a .060 veg card under the bullet and a Magnum primer (Lg. Mag Rifle) I like the round to be honest.

[ButlerFord45]

Roy, might be a good thing for me that you stopped by, I'd have started with FFF if it's available locally.  Think maybe now I'll start with FF and use a 44 mag case as a dipper and fill it level.  That should leave me ample room for the bullet and wad with a small amount of compression in the 45 Colt.
777 is starting to sound like a dream deal for using in the 357 when those heavier knock downs are used for the cowboy shooting. My 22 gr FFF and 158 grain bullet is marginal with some of them and completely ineffective if I shoot low.  I'll give them a try with the FF 777, but I'm starting to think that the 357 and FFF 777 may be a match made in heaven.  I'll save that experiment for another weekend.

[WD45]

Roy cobb..
Thats the info I was looking for also... Thanks :grin:
Have you tried anything heavier than the 250 grn bullet in the 45 LC ?
I understand that Elmer Kieth was using 300 grn thumpers over a full case
of black when he had one of his guns let go. The old colts could not take the pressure of that load. He also spoke about the power of that load as it would shoot end to end thru a mule deer. From What I gather that is what Butler ford is trying to achieve. I would have to do some research to see if even a modern colt clone will take the pressure with T 7. The rugers  and the rossi will no problem. Push up the bullet weight and power goes up... but so does pressure. I dont know anyone that has done much experimenting with T7 bullets between the 250 and 300 mark.  If a full case of T7 and that 300 grn FN can be used I think Butler Ford would have the load he is looking for...  So what cha all think ??

[Dan Chamberlain]

I'm a little concerned that Roy Cobb is noticing pressure signs with only 30 and 35 grains of FFFg in .45 Colt.  That just shouldn't be so.  I'm thinking that for some reason, there must be some air space between the projectile and the powder or something.  

Butler;

Never tried the navy with 25 grains of 777, only 20!  So I can't help you except to say, ignition was positive, accuracy was great and cleanup was a snap.  I'm fond of 777.  It's more expensive, but I use less per shot.

I load the 20 grains over the wonderwad and compress to the extent he loading lever will allow.

Dan C

[ButlerFord45]

Dan, thanks, I think I now have some kind of idea of the compression your using.  
Ya know, I remember having heard some comments about FFF 777 some time ago, but can't remember what is was other than it makes an awfuly stout load.  I'm really starting to believe it's gonna be a Daisey in a 357, and since I'll have some on hand, I won't be able to help myself, I'll have to experiment with it in the 45.
I think WD has the melody on this tune, and I'll try and throw in some harmony and we'll see what plays.
It' going to be a busy weekend, but I really want to try some of these Saturday, 'cause Sunday my kids are giving me the mandatory safety training for the CCW for Christmas.  I'd like to have these ready to go for the proficiency portion of the class.
I'll let you know of my successes and failures.
Any more ideas 'twix now and then appreciated.

[Roy Cobb]

Actually there was and is no space in the case the powder is under compression so no air space, when using a full case it is real tough to get that 250 in the case let alone trying to shove a 300 in there! the 30 - 35 grains by volume will be under compression and it definitely shows signs of over pressure, with 3f only not with the equivalent of 2f I use a drop tube and trickle it in there so it is nicely settled then seating the bullet compresses the powder I use a card in the pistol stuff and a .060 in the rifle stuff, Hodgdon says you don't need it and they also recommend not loading BP Equivalent with T7 they strongly recommend reducing the charge, T7 is a lot hotter than BP I used 40 grains of 3f Goex and had no OP but the T7 does. I am serious BF reduce the charges, I use Starline brass and OT bullets in the pistols I have seen signs of metal flow in the case head area as well as flattened and bulged primers these were normal Large pistol primers and I have tried different brands of those CCi Fed Rem and Win. All showed the same tendencies under 40,35,and 30 grains of T7, I have not tried less than 25 you would likely have to put a couple wads in the case with that light loading. Also if a standard Uberti clone can't take a wussy smokeless load with a 300Gr. bullet I would warn against stuffing it in on some T7 in them, but the Ruger should be able to take it.

[ButlerFord45]

Roy, I'll start with the FF in the 45, I don't ask advice just to ignore it, I'm going to try the FFF in the 357, and since it will be on hand, I'll try a bit in the 45,  I have a wad punch, and if I run out of beer carton, I guess I'll just have to force myself to get another small supply  :lol:  so I'll start light with a stack of wads and go from there. Your experiences are appreciated.

[Roy Cobb]

Glad to here it man, I would sure hate to have you coming back to typing messages with one hand with one finger on it.

Special note I recalling reading or hearing somewhere that those Italians proof test all export firearms with 200% over proofing rounds so those clones might just be stouter than we all give them gredit for.

Also I would sure think twice bout using a full charge in an open top with T7

You might just end up with a couple paperweights a story and some missing digits.

[Dan Chamberlain]

Roy;

You might be getting too much compression.  30 grains of fffg should not show signs of pressure in a .45 colt, even with a 300 grain bullet.  300 grains is asking a lot of 30 grains in fact.

Dan C

[WD45]

Dan,
Have you tried the FFF T7 in the 45 LC ?
The only thing I can find around here currently is the 2F.
I rechecked the Hodgdon websight again and the only loads they list is for the 2F equivilant and are
#1-  200 grn bullet ,35 grns 2F T7,    959 FPS and 8500 CUP
#2 - 250 grn bullet ,30 grns 2F T7 ,   838 FPS and 9500 CUP
They also only reccomend compression up to .100 and prefer what they call only slight compression just seating the bullet with no airspace.
I sent them an email just to get thier take on 3F T7 and the 45 LC.
I will let ya all know if they give me an answer. It has me curious as to why Roy Cobb is getting that kind of pressure with 3F. The 2f pressures listed are very reasonable

[ButlerFord45]

#1- 200 grn bullet ,35 grns 2F T7, 959 FPS and 8500 CUP
#2 - 250 grn bullet ,30 grns 2F T7 , 838 FPS and 9500 CUP

Yeah, I was looking at the web site last night, and looking at this very pair of load's.  With a 5 gr decrease in powder and only a 50 grain increase in bullet weight, there is a 1000 copper unit increase in pressure.  I was wondering what it would have been with 35 grainss of powder?? I'd almost bet a cup of Arbuckles that it would be in the 12000 cup range, or maybe even more.  It seems that this stuff increases pressures more rapidly than Black Powder.  Then if you think about the decrease in granulation size of going to FFF 777, you will get more powder in the case.  Then whats going to happen to the pressures??  In trying to read between the lines, I'm starting to think that the pressures with 777 rise more exponentially than linear with heavy charges.  Could start to explain Roy's experiences with FFF.
I know, I have no idea of what I'm talking about, just thinking aloud so you who know more can straighten me out.   :eek:

Experimenting with FFF 777 is a mote point at the moment, there is none available locally so I'll have to try in a wider spot in the road.  I did pick up a pound of FF though, and the work and weather both look good for tommorrow.
I did notice that in the FAQ on Hogdens site, that a comment was made about problems with fouling with homemade BP lube, and their reply was to use regular crayon lubed bullets.  Dang!!  I have thousands of 45 cal bullets, but not a one with smokless lube.
I wish Cabelas would put a store in Kentucky!!!  Wally World prices were right at $25 for a pound.

[Roy Cobb]

As I said the 40 Gr of 2F ended up with clost to .125" of compression the 35 had less and the 30 had less than that but I did not measure it.
again the 2F showed no signs of OP.

The 3F showed signs of pressure and a noted increase in recoil, I have used the 3F in my C&B 58 Remmy and no adverse anything, using a pure lead cast 200 grain Lee C&B bullet I can load that up with near 40 Gr. if I want and notice no signs of damage or whatnot, when I used it in a cartridge I noted the signs in the primers and flow (Imprinting of the back of the frame into the case head and primers bulging into the Firing pin hole.) No discernable damage to the pistol but the case sure did get stuck when the primer bulged, over all case inspection including Zyglow showed no signs of true damage, fractures or bulges. I know the pistol has no leading problems it gets cleaned regularly, the stuff does tend to make the pistol impossible to use after about 150 rounds it then just needs the base pin cleaned and lubed and you are back in action. the Rossi Rile seems to eat em like candy no matter how they are loaded.

[Led]

Now you Guy's have given me the itch to try T7 in my .45 Colt again.
I did some once....and yes they were quite stout.

But I found mine to be horribly inaccurate. I used the 250gr bullet, fiber wad and filled the case to where the powder was touching the bottom of the bullet. Using the 2f stuff.

The groups were HUGE at 25 yard's. I was very disappointed. Maybe it was a bad day at the range.....but I'm not THAT bad of shot. I went back to Unique and the group's came back to normal.

But since I never like to give up....I may put a few together again and give T7 another chance.

Now....in my old army the stuff is extremely accurate....but for some reason my cartridge experiment didn't pan out too well.......

[ButlerFord45]

Well, I gave it a shot.  I couldn't take it any more, so I loaded and shot six last night just to see what they felt like.  I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this was a disappointment.  After shooting the six, I inspected each case, they looked pretty normal, except a lot cleaner, infact they looked like a smokeless round.  I had to see if clean up was really as easy as everyone claimed.  It was even easier, one patch wet with water through the barrel and six cylinders and two to dry them.  I could have gotten by with one, but to really test it, I used cold water and it just doesen't dry as well.  The gun was spotless.
Last night's six were loaded as per the hogden online data:  30gr FF Triple 7 under a .030" card wad and a 255 grain cast bullet.  I was a little dissapointed.
This morning I loaded 20 using my 37.5 grain dipper (which by the way weighs out to 22.3 grains) beer carton wad and 255 grain wheel weight lubed with toilet rings and Crisco.
Let me go ahead and list my excuses:  
Was a beautiful clear day 'bout 72-74 degrees  
fairly low humidity (but we ARE talking about Kentucky!) 50-60%
Left quartering head wind at about 2 m/sec
Weapon of choice for the test was a Uberti '66 with 24 inch barrel
Distance was 100yards (this has been measured 4 or 5 times for the purpose of checking a laser rangefinder [which by the way is very accurate])
Procedures were 4 rounds, check, mark and record targets, clean barrel with one moose milk patch and wipe with one clean patch
The results were disappointing as well, discounting two fliers brings the other 18 down to an 8" group 8" below point of aim.
Most of the group spread was verticle stringing
I felt this would be kind of usless unless I compared this load to the black powder loads I have been using, so:
Every thing was the same for all tests except powder
I already had plenty of 37.5 FF Goex rounds on hand so this was test number two.  20 rounds six inches 4 inches low.
Test three:  I loaded 5 rounds with 40 grains of FFF goex, this 3.5 inch group went three inches high, no cleaning between shots ( I could see the shower of sparks on this one which makes me think there might be a bit of powder not being burned in the barrel  :eek: )
Test four: 20 rounds 37.5 grains Goex FFF=  20 rounds inside 3" with the center being 1 inch low.
ALL charges were measured, weighed, trickeled for consistancy, slow dropped through a 24" drop tube and compressed with the bullet during seating.  All cases were full length resized and belled. All bullets were crimped with the same setting on the crimp die.
Conclusions: Not a damn thing other than I had a great time today, and Triple 7 is as easy to clean as they say it is.
 

[WD45]

Butler ford... After seeing the results of the accuracy at 100 yards its not good enough for me to hunt with. Not with that load anyway.. maybe someone else has had better results but if not it is not worth the extra price just to clean up easier. Might as well use the smokeless stuff if that is the only advantage. Just cause we shoot BP doesnt mean we dont care about accuracy. 8 inch group.... very disappointing.
By the way, I still have no answer from Hodgdon concerning the 3F 777 question I emailed them with But it has only been a few days.

[Roy Cobb]

Odd bit that accuracy, I can easily pick off clay pigeons set up at 100 yds with the 40 Gr round in my 1892 Rossi, 24" Octagon barrel, Offhand! I use Oregon Trail Laser cast bullets, 200-255 Grain LRNFP with Smokeless lube.
My group size is around 3" at 100 from a rest. This is using iron sights and a pistol round. I also regularly ring the gong on a 6" Diameter pipe gong hanging at 100, shot after shot in the sixguns. With the sixguns though I have noticed a vertical stringing. my Pedersoli Sharps in 45 120 will cut the same hole at 100, but has 2" groups at 50 however it maintains accuracy out to 250 printing only an inch there. This again is with iron sights (Tang mounted peep with hooded front apperture on a post) I can't 'splain BFs issues 'cept maybe try the heavy bullet with a bit ore powder, and a much thinner wad, I use a wad cut from a business card.

[ButlerFord45]

WD, don't give up on 777 yet, I haven't (mainly because I've still got almost a pound of it!   ).  Way too many people applauding the stuff for there not to be something to it.  Roy seems to have good luck with it, and many others seem to be as well.  I feel certain that I just haven't hit uppon the magic combination yet.  My real dissapointment was with the power factor.  I guess from all the tales of having to back off on their loads and comments about reducing your loads by 20%, I was expecting it to be like comparing a 38 to a 357, or 44 to 44mag.  It just wasn't there. I'm still at this, at least for the rest of this pound.  While rummaging around, I found I still had 2 pounds of Pyrodex, so I guess I'll throw that into the pot as well.
Roy, I'm not going to be able to go to a much heavier bullet without eating up case capacity, I just don't have that much more length to play with in the "yellow boy" and I thought that the 255 grain bullet was a pretty good size thumper in a 45 colt cartridge.  I will however try more powder next time!  From your experience it would seem that I should go straight to 40 grains?
If you've never shot a "66, I promise that the only worse sights I think I've ever used were on a Colt percussion revolver.  So don't ya'll be givin' up on this "miracle powder" just cause I had a less than impressive experience.

[Cuts Crooked]

Hmmm!?!?!

Sounds like I must git ta the local supplier and pick up a pound of this stuff!

My interest would be in 45-70 only. I've been xperimenting with trying to find a slug/lube/powder combination that will allow me to shoot xtended strings without blow tubing or bore wiping. My idea is to cut the time factor down in the long range Buff gun competition.....

It also sounds like I could reach 45-100 power factors without rechambering!?! :?