Author Topic: 777 & Compression ??? (Read 5333 times)

WD45 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:34:53 AM »

Oh.. I haven't give up yet. We still need to use up that pound of powder you bought

BF, You are used to shooting full house loads so you probably would not see an extreme difference. someone used to shooting lower velocity rounds for the game would notice a larger difference. The velocities listed by hodgdon with their loads are about the same as a full house BP load. Bump it up to Roys load and you may see a little more umph with the extra powder and the extra compression. Roy may have something there with that 40 grain load and would be an acceptable accuracy hunting load.
Roy , Have you put that load over a chrony from the Rossi ? It would be very interesting to see the velocity of that load.
BF... If any of that pyro you have is ( P ) give that a go. I have seen some very accurate loads with full dose of pyro P. I have a hard time finding it. Most places only carry the RS

Led · « **Reply #31 on:** November 25, 2003, 06:16:52 AM »

So....Butler!
Since we both had poor result's with T7 in cartridges....where do you think we should go from here?

If we were to back off the charge...would we need a filler? The powder has so many characteristic's of a smokeless powder I wonder if the case really need's to be full or compressed at all? Short of actually trying it....something I'm not particularly eager to try....how can we know for sure? I know mine were kicking like a .44 magnum loaded as per Hodgden....way hotter than what I think they ought to be. Although the cases didn't show any sign's of high pressure at all. But they sure weren't "Cowboy load's" either!!

Also I was thinking about the crimp. I used just a normal crimp on mine. Did you use a light or heavy crimp on your's? Maybe that could be a key.....

I just don't know what to do differently. I was using a Vaquero and an 1858 with an R&D conversion cylinder for my test....and both patterned like a shotgun at 25 yard's. I don't have a rifle in .45 Colt.

Any idea's of where you want to go with this Butler??

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #32 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:13:03 AM »

I have not had the opportunity to chrony it, nest trip to the range I will drag the chrony out there and give it a go.

WD45 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 28, 2003, 12:28:04 AM »

Thanks Roy...
Hope all you fellers had a good thanksgiving

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 28, 2003, 08:10:53 AM »

Howdy Ya'll!!! I certainly hope your Thanksgiving was as Blessed as mine.

I'm gonna give Roy's load a try before I do much of anything else with this "miracle powder", it may just be the ticket and it is definately the direction I prefer to go with the powder level.

I sure wish Hogden would give WD a reply on the FFF stuff, but I've still got a bunch of the FF to burn up.

The Pyrodex I have is all RS, but I'm going to try it anyway.

Roy, sometime if you have a few extra minutes, would you explain step by step how your loading your's? It's very possible I'm missing something, I just don't know what.

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #35 on:** November 29, 2003, 03:18:24 PM »

Well step by step I deprime, then I wash the fired cases in a mix of warm water and white vinegar, It bubbles and sizzles and gets the garbage out of my cases, I then rinse them off with clear water and then dry them in the oven. when dry I tumble them in Lyman Tuf Nut.
I then seperate the cases from the media, debur, resize check length trim if necessary (Rarely is) then I reprime with Federal Large pistol primers using a lee auto prime. expand the case neck slightly with the appropriate die.
then I set them up in a wood block, use the drop tube measure the powder with my handy TC powder measure to 40 grains by volume this stuff weighs less than BP so it won't scale anything close. I then take the jug of powder put a TC powder funnel on the top and proceed to fill the measure when full and slightly mounded up then use a business card to level the powder, then turn the spout over the measure.
trickle the powder through the drop tube, into the cases this will usually settle to just below the flare from the neck expander then I use a card wad made from a business card into the case then push it down to the powder with a dowel rod, then seat the bullet I use OT LC bullets in either 200 or 255 Gr. weight, round nose flat point. I use the Blue waxy lube that OT puts on there. I seat the bullet to the crimp groove then give the round a firm crimp with a Lee factory crimp die.

When I get the load developed that I like I then work up the mechanicals for the Lee pro1000 press I use the autodisk measure adapted to drop through a drop tube (only about 6 inches) then run the cases through getting a good loaded round with each throw of the handle. but the initial testing is done by fully handloading each case the measuring is done in the same manner I never tried to progressive load the 3F stuff because I did not get good results with the fully handloaded shells.

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2003, 06:08:30 PM »

Our loading techniques are almost identical, bullet weights the same, different primer, card thickness and lube. Nothing I can find to make that much difference. I'm going to give the 40 grain a try in the morning. Maybe the extra powder is just what's needed!

howdy doody · « **Reply #37 on:** November 30, 2003, 08:19:19 AM »

777 and lube? I use zero lube on my 38-55 and shoot a 40 round match with the stuff and I even shoot about 5 sighters too when I shoot cowboy silhouettes. I don't foul out, everything stays clean and cleanup with windex does the trick. Out to 200 yards, I am packing enough punch and accuracy to knock the heavy rams down with ease. If I could do as well at turkeys at 150yds, I might even actually get into AA division. No extra lube, but my bullets do have 2 small lube grooves full of smokeless lube of some sort that Mid Kansas uses. It is red. I plan to start casting my own once I run out of the store bought MK 245gr ones, but I am not experiencing and less accuracy than I was with 4198 before I switched to the 777.
I load, in fact down load, my for 45-70 Handi that I use for plainsman events. 50 yards is about as far as I see targets for that event. I use APP for that as I do for my match guns and C&B. Again, no lube, no wonder wads either and I have good luck. Could humidity have a lot to do with things. I shoot in very little humidity except for a couple months a year in winter.

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #38 on:** December 03, 2003, 01:16:13 PM »

Yeah howdy the lube I was talking about is the smokeless type blue melted crayon looking stuff just like the red stuff mid K uses.
But on my sharps cartridges I use SPG or my home brew 1:1:1 Crisco:TBR (Toilet bowl ring):parafin, by weight.

Works really well the parafin just firms it up a little bit.

howdy doody · « **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2003, 04:53:34 PM »

hey there Roy Cobb. Have you tried no lube? I like SPG myself and used it all the time with Goex and Swiss, but I got hooked on APP/Cleanshot and spoiled rotten about lubing at all. Fer instance I cast a 160 gr bullets for my RVs out of wheel weights and size them 358 but with no lube. I shoot about 30 rounds per match through each gun and no leading, fouling and clean up with windex does the trick. It sure looks all wrong to jam a bullet in a case with the grooves clean and empty, but dang it all, with APP there is no problems and a nice healthy grease star forms on the muzzle too. Weird as it sounds. 777 should be the same, but I haven't tried it in my pistolas, but maybe I should just to see what happens. :-)

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #40 on:** December 04, 2003, 05:36:13 PM »

likely the low velocity of the bullet leads to no wiping of the lead, I would wager that if I were using my 45-120 with no lube i would get a bit of leading, the pistol bullets came with lube so I just left it and I must have shot 10000 lead balls with no lube except the little bit of mold release that was on them, and got no leading I got tired of playing with wonder wads....
I have shot my lee BP pistol bullets with no lube and experienced no leading.

WD45 · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2003, 01:20:11 AM »

Well Gents..
Still NO reply from Hodgedon on 3F T7. I may try and call them and see if I can drag some info out of somebody.
Howdy.. you get a grease star form with NO lube ?? Thats interesting
Ya know the first time I ever saw that red sulfur residue on the end of my
smoke pole I thought I cut myself er something :lol: Darn stuff looks just like blood.

howdy doody · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2003, 03:33:18 PM »

WD45, to clarify the grease star at muzzle, it is with American Pioneer Powder or what used to be called CleanShot. It makes it's own lube. I shoot it for CAS in cartridge and C&B and it is fine. I do not recommend it for long range or big bore rifle however. I could never get any good results with it for that. 777 is the way to go for long range shooting. If you need to shoot subs like I do, since I live in No. California and the over regulated storage of true BP is so bad no shops around me carry real BP any more. It is too much hassle for them for the volume they sell. I could however mail order for it, but I always need to find pards that want to split it and most everyone has succumed to using subs. grrrrrrr

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #43 on:** December 07, 2003, 02:33:04 AM »

:shock: Well pards, 777 just got taken off my list of things to try! I stopped in the local Wally World the other day looked at the rack full of 777 :eek: I 'cn buy THREE CANS of the real deal for the price of one pound of the 777 stuff! That's a whole lot of shootin that I couldn't do if I went that route! :roll:

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #44 on:** December 07, 2003, 05:39:04 AM »

I agree 20 bucks a pound is steep but it is sure a lot better than Pyrodex
Easier to clean up etc..... I can't seem to find Goex or such locally and by the time I pay the Haz Mat charge on a couple pounds it is the same price..
I may have to trek to Graff one of these days and pick up some real BP.

w30wcf · « **Reply #45 on:** December 07, 2003, 05:21:35 PM »

Interesting topic! Pards, thank you for the insight.

I haven't had the opportunity to try 777 in my Marlin .45 Colt Cowboy rifle yet but it's on the project list for 2004. If it works as well in that rifle as it does my circa 1882 '73 .44 W.C.F., I will be happy.

In the .44 W.C.F., 23.0 grains by weight of 777 FFG produced three 5 shot groups of 1.26", 1.10", and 1.53" @ 50 yards.
Bullet: 427098 215grs. in wheelweight alloy+2% tin.
Lube: NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax (Tamarack)
Compression: .04"
Primer: WLP
Case: Winchester
Velocity: 1,288 f.p.s.

Other bullet: The Magma 200 gr. bullet gave poorer accuracy in the 3"-4" (!) range. It also gave poor accuracy with Pyrodex and black powder. It produces very good groups with smokeless though.

Primers: With both 777 and Pyrodex, better accuracy was achieved with hotter primers, specifically WLP's and Federal 155's.

ButlerFord 45, perhaps a hotter primer like one of the above might help tighten your groups. Also another type of 250 grain bullet with 2 grooves might also.

Cuts Crooked, it is more expensive, but not quite as bad as 3 to 1. In the .44-40 and .45 Colt, 1 lb of 777 is the ballistic equivalent of almost 2#'s of black.

Jack

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #46 on:** December 07, 2003, 06:50:07 PM »

777 at local Wally World: 24.95 per pound.

3F Elephant ordered over the net 8.12 per pound.(that included shipping and hazmat!!!)

Yup! It's that bad, virtually 3X the cost! :eek:

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #47 on:** December 09, 2003, 02:00:21 PM »

Where did you get your Elephant from?

$8.12x3 is $24.32 less standard UPS hazmat of $20.00 is $4.32, less shipping charges of about $3.50 leaves 82 cents for 3 pounds that is amazing! only 27 cents a pound! Seriously, Did they just wave hazmat? The standard Hazmat shipping charge is $20 dollars per order regardless of amount and I have seen it waved for large amounts, but if you are mail ordering it that cheap I want to get some! I checked Graf and the cost for Goex is 10.99 a pound The Swiss is 17.99 a pound and the Graf powder is 9.99 a pound, the hazmat is 20 dollars regardless of amount of powder ordered. So that would be for the cheapest stuff 9.99 + 20.00 hazmat or rounded to 30 dollars a pound.....not including shipping, if you got 3# then you pay 30 + 20 + Shipping or 53 dollars or 17.66 a pound I have bought 777 for 18 a pound at a local gun shop and 19.99 from Cabelas (we have a store so it was not mail order) I could drive out to Graf and save the 20 dollar hazmat and the 3.50 S&H but then I would run 30 bucks worth of gass through the truck just getting there and back.......

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #48 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:15:12 PM »

Course if ya git 50 pounds at a time, that'll cut that hazmat down to 40 cents a pound and make the price of the powder 7.72 and that's not at all out of line for Elephant.

WD45 · « **Reply #49 on:** December 10, 2003, 02:40:25 AM »

My My MY,,,,,
Jethro Bodine would be right proud of yer ciphering fellers..... :-D

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #50 on:** December 10, 2003, 02:48:57 AM »

:-D WD, my ciferin' is a lot Jethro's, just used as an xample

w30wcf · « **Reply #51 on:** December 14, 2003, 04:18:03 AM »

ButlerFord45,

Your interesting thread had prompted me to load some .45 Colt's with 777 and give them a try before year end. For starters I decided to load the 777 FFG to a compression level of .04" which worked well in my .44 W.C.F. and try 3 different primers ..... CCI300, WLP, & Fed155.

At .04" compression in fired, neck sized R-P cases, the resultant powder weight with a settled charge was 25.0 grs. by actual weight of my lot of 777 FFG. With the B&M powder measure set to drop those charges of 777, I put some Goex FFG in the measure and the weight was 33.0 grains. Interestingly, this differs from your findings but different lots, different results.

I will try two different bullets, Lyman's 457190 and Lyman's Cowboy bullet. I need to cast some more Magma 250 gr. bullets and give them a try also at a later date. Lube will be 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

In the end, if 777 still doesn't work out for you, I would suggest you give SWISS FFFG a try. It will definitely turn up more velocity. Last summer I compared it with Goex FFFG. With 40 grains by actual weight of each powder in Rem-Umc solid head button pocket cases with the Lyman 250 gr. 457190 bullet lubed with SPG here were the results:

.....Goex FFFG - 1,247 f.p.s. (primer WLR)
...SWISS FFFG - 1,323 f.p.s. (primer 2 1/2 Rem.)

The Accuracy was better with SWISS as well. SWISS is a denser powder than GOEX. Your 37.5 gr. measure of Goex will hold about 41-42 grs. of SWISS. Another thing about SWISS, it leaves less fouling in the bore.

It may be just what you are looking for...............

Sincerely,
w30wcf

w30wcf · « **Reply #52 on:** December 15, 2003, 01:47:10 AM »

ButlerFord45,

I forgot to mention that in another test, 35 grs. by weight of SWISS FFFG in modern Winchester brass with the 250 gr. bullet sparked by Remington 2 1/2 primers, turned up 1,242 f.p.s., or about the same as 40 grs. of Goex FFFG (1,247 f.p.s.) in the Marlin's 24" bbl.

Sincerely,
Jack

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #53 on:** December 15, 2003, 05:44:48 AM »

I donno 'bout that math stuff, but that's wat I paid fer the last order of Pachyderm...delivered! That's right...DELIVERED!

Maine Powder House has raised it's prices a bit this year by about 40 cents, but Hazmat and Shipping is still included in the quoted price...8.60 something a pound. Check it out here: http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/2fg.htm[/b]

Roy Cobb · « **Reply #54 on:** December 15, 2003, 10:50:25 AM »

Oh, 25 pound minimum makes quite a difference....... still cheaper though about 7 bucks or so a pound.

WD45 · « **Reply #55 on:** December 19, 2003, 08:30:15 AM »

Just FYI... I still have no reply from hodgdon on 3F T7 ..... might be sayin the same thing this tim next year :lol: Havent had a chance to land line them yet .... need more hours in the day.... If I just didnt have to work fer a livin I could get somethin done :lol:

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 23, 2003, 01:07:36 AM »

WD, I definately understand about short days and the thing called work! I've been trying to spend some quality time with the neglected children in the safe the last few weeks, the ultra modern ones, you know, like 1911's :grin: . I expect to get back to this within the next week or so. I'll report my findings.

w30wcf · « **Reply #57 on:** December 28, 2003, 04:05:35 PM »

ButlerFord45,

We had a very nice day in northwestern Pennsylvania for this time of year with the temperature hitting almost 60F. I took the opportunity to test the 777 .45 Colt loads I had assembled.

Bullet: 457190 (255 grs. w.w. +2% tin alloy)
Lube: Tamarack (NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax)
primer: see below
case: R-P

Load: 25 grs. by weight of 777FFG (note: Hodgdon recommends 30 grs. by volume for the .45 Colt. This load was 33 grs. by volume because with a settled powder charge it only required .04" compression at .38" bullet seating depth in neck sized previously fired cases.)

In the 24" Marlin Cowboy barrel, the average velocity for 5 rounds each were as follows:

1,195 f.p.s. - CCI 300 Primer
1,222 f.p.s. - WLP primer
1,243 f.p.s. - Federal 155 primer

Accuracy: all 5 shot groups were in the 2" range at 50 yards.

By comparison, a 30 gr. charge by weight of Pyrodex P (40 grs. by volume) wasn't far behind at 1,210 f.p.s.

Interestingly, 35 grs. by weight of Swiss FFFG B.P. or 40 grs. by weight of Goex FFFG in Winchester cases with the same 457190 bullet lubed with SPG = the fastest velocity produced by 777.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

WD45 · « **Reply #58 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:01:29 AM »

Dont know about you but I kinda like this global warming stuff.... I think it is really caused by all that hot air those scientists are releasing :-D

Those are some very interesting velocities and with that 255 gr slug any of those loads will take deer and a little larger out to a prettty good distance.
Was that 2F or 3F 777 ?

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #59 on:** December 30, 2003, 12:05:59 PM »

W's, I'm still digesting all this information, this is great, I can see that a chronograph is most assuredly a nice thing to have. I'd never have thought that there would be that much difference in primers. Did you happen to record which powder had the least amount of deviation in velocity?
This global warming thing is working for me, we had a rain and moderate tempratures here, made the tobacco come in case, so it's all down now, just need to finish the stripping, tomorrow with a little luck. Then I can get back to the important things, like burning powder. I'm not going to fuss, finishing a crop within the calander year is a call for celebration, so feel free to meet me in the Saloon tomorrow night, I'll be buying!!