Uberti rolling block carbine

[gcrank1]

And thats just the point, isnt it. After you have determined, on paper, that the rifle and load do what is required, go out and use it. Unless the game is paper shooting, shooting at more paper does what?, show how good or (more often than not) bad I am on that particular session. I am the biggest variable in this snake pit called shooting and the only way I get better is to get trigger time. So, I say, everyone get out and shoot, do it for fun, dont get too tightly wound, and may your misses be awfully close.

[Brithunter]

Right on Brit, there is nothing like the joy of handling a fine firearm, even though it may not "do" anything a cheaper gun can't do just as well. And there surely is a place for a "beater truck gun" just as there is a place for a beater truck.
 As to the three shot group, I hear people justifying it with "I'll never fire more than three shots when hunting".  Well that is a truism which has nothing at all to do with shooting groups on paper. It's like saying "a pint is a pound, therefore a squirrel is a rabbit". One part has nothing to do with the other. I don't expect to fire more than one shot at any one animal but a one shot group wouldn't tell me much about the accuracy of my rifle and ammo and a three shot group doesn't tell a whole lot more. Gun writers love three shot groups because thee shots will always average out smaller than five shots. The fewer shots fired the greater the factor of random chance. The more shots fired the greater the probability of getting an accurate representation of what the gun and load can really be depended upon to do. Three shot groups are for people who like to kid themselves about the accuracy of their rifles.
 For those who like three shot groups I suggest you try this. Fire your three shots and mark the holes. Now fire another three on the same paper with the same hold. Mark those holes and fire another three. Measure your three groups and average them and then compare that to the final measurement of all nine. That nine shot group represents what your gun and load will actually do and I'd bet it is more than twice as large as the average of the three shot groups.
  Once you know you have a good load then three shot is plenty to verify that your rifle and scope are still zeroed, but it is no basis for comparing two different loads, the factor of random chance is just too large.

Why would I need to keep shooting more than three shot groups with this rifle when the load development is done and we know it's accurate. Three shots now comfirm the latest batch is the same as the last lot and it's hitting the same POI. Now I have shot a Deer twice even though it was dead from the first. As they often do when they know someone is around they run at the shot. The first shot took out the top of the heart and the lungs yet that Whitetail 9 Pointer ran about 50-60 yards then slowed and I shot a second time. He took three more stumbling steps and keeled over. If he had made another 10 feet he would have gone down the bank a shear drop of 6 feet or so into the creek and I didn't fancy having to try and haul him back up that shear bank  .

And instead of trying to mark each of your three shot groups why not use the first target as a record and use two new ones for each other group just put a new one exactly over the first one and shoot you trhee shot group remove the second target and place another new one excatly over tarhet number one and shot you third 3 shot group. Target # 1 now has a composite 9 shot group on it.. As i am not convinved as yet of that 6mm Remingtons precision nor the laods i have so far tried I am still shootign 5 shot groups and keeping a master target. Once I get the rifle shooting a load that it likes to my satisfaction it can then checked with three shot groups  .

Now I shoot fairly often, one for the practice and two because I like shooting  if I am just after practicing my technique, trigger control, field position or hold then i will often use a nice old 303 with a Redfield 70 reciever sight and surplus ammo. It has enough precision to tell me if i am doing it right or wrong and costs less. If I am checking out things before a hunt then it's with the ammunition and rifle that i will be using and will fire a few shots to check it's grouping where I expect it to be then i will shoot another rifle for practice. I am not a competative shooter.

[coyotejoe]

Brit, I'm pretty sure I did say that once one knows the capabilities of their rifle and load, three shots is plenty just to reconfirm zero. Actually, if you have a really tight grouping combo then one shot is enough for checking zero.
 I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I really was addressing those who believe three shot groups are all they need in working up a load and who like to brag up their 1/2" group which turns out to be three shots and the best of several attempts at that. But you are shooting five shot groups in your testing of a new rifle and I like your idea of overlaying targets. I'm just a cheapskate who likes to get all the use I can out of one target.

[gcrank1]

Im still waiting for someone to respond that they have seen, if not shot, this 45-70 baby roller!
How about a 10 shot group from the bench with factory ammo?

[Brithunter]

Brit, I'm pretty sure I did say that once one knows the capabilities of their rifle and load, three shots is plenty just to reconfirm zero. Actually, if you have a really tight grouping combo then one shot is enough for checking zero.
 I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I really was addressing those who believe three shot groups are all they need in working up a load and who like to brag up their 1/2" group which turns out to be three shots and the best of several attempts at that. But you are shooting five shot groups in your testing of a new rifle and I like your idea of overlaying targets. I'm just a cheapskate who likes to get all the use I can out of one target.

Ahhhh you mean like this:-


These target provide mulitple aiming points like the corners of the square. As you can see more load development. The top left with three well it was pretty pointles firing any more. Te rest got taken home and broken down. The centre groups was some Winchester 180 Gr Silver Tips that I was given to try and this Brno ZKK 601 didn't like them at all  . I cannot recall what happend with the 165 Speer bullet bottom left now but it put three through one hole and spread the other two OK they would have been in a deers kill zone but i wonder why that happened. Will have to try and look it up as this was in August 06. Saves walking down to change targets as well  .. As to any misunderstandign I don't think there has been any really soem good points have been brought out and ideas exchanged. I pick up ideas from the forums and hopefully share a few as well.

[coyotejoe]

Yeah, sorta like that, except I buy cheap six bull targets and sometimes have as many as 10 different groups on one sheet of paper.   You make another good point that if the first three, or even the first two are really lousy there isn't much point in shooting more, may as well break them down for components. Looks like you have a keeper on the upper right. As to the lower left, that just shows how flukes crop up now and then. It looks to be about an inch and a half group with three just happening to touch. When I sometimes fire a 10 shot group I often see 5 or 6 or even 7 in a very tight cluster but it is those few outsiders which define the group. That's the point of firing groups on paper, the worst your rifle and load ever does is the best you can actually depend upon, that's exactly what we are trying to learn by testing and that is why three shots isn't enough to reveal the outer limits of the group.
 But getting back to the little Uberti, sort of, my best pard just acquired a dainty little .58 flintlock smoothbore which weights 4 1/2 pounds. He said 60 grains of powder with one ounce of shot is not "horrible" but he backed down to 50 grains and 3/4 ounce for everyday use. That's actually still a heavy load for a 24 gauge shotgun and I wouldn't want to fire many of those in one day from that little gun.

[goofyoldfart]

I wasn't going to post, but then thought "oh well, why not".   Stupid is as Stupid does.  When I first started shooting 60 years ago (I know, I know--that's why I am the Goofy OLD Fart) I didn't know about shooting paper, I was doing MOT (t=tincan) and from there went to MOTDR (TDR=trash dump rats). Yah, back then we had trash dumps, that was the poor man's shooting range and even the police came out and practiced with us. It was permitted in those days to shoot the rats in the trash dumps. Every one keeping an eye on each other for safety (as much  for sneaky rats as well as where that muzzle was pointed)---AND it worked.  Now I have to say that those days are probably the reason that I came home from combat in Viet Nam. Gunning running rats at a 100yds are a lot more difficult to hit than a man at 2-300 yards--Trust me. Plus in my day in Army boot we didn't shoot "groups". We shot K&D (known Distance) 1 round 1 target. And this was with worn out training M1 garands. When I got to Nam, I had me a real purdy, bran spankin' new m14. Whooee, would that baby girl shoot. and I was supplied with all the ammo that I could ask for and carry. played Hell with the V.C. and NVA.  came home and started trap shooting with a 40.00 US used rack 1187 long stroke 12 ga. Remington gas op. won a lot of shoots with that old shotgun. and this was against high dollar weapons. Shot against a Dr. using a Perratzi (sp?) 2000.00 US and won the match. He was sooo mad and embarrassed (he had been bragging how good his shotgun was and that we wouldn't stand a chance) that he broke his shotgun against the light pole and never came back. (bad manners all the way around. I felt bad for the shotgun, wasn't it's fault). I guess what I'm saying is " to know your weapon".  AND with that in sight, I don't disagree with you CoyoteJoe and BritHunter.  It really does take more than 3 shots to get a true picture. But when the SHTF and your life depends on it---Make the first one count!!!!!!!!! God Bless to all.

                        Goofy <aka GOF>

ETA: corrected sentence structure. oops