Author Topic: War Crimes (Read 9661 times)

magooch · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:22:16 AM »

I will never accept the idea that our Constitution was meant to restrict the defense of our country against thugs who follow no rules. Why should we have only two choices when catagorizing terrorists. Obviously they are not conventional criminals, nor soldiers of a particular country. There is no reason to tie our hands just because there is the prospect of our government possibly abusing our laws and using it against our own citizens. The idea that if we give Constitutional consideration to terrorists our government would then never abuse the Constitution with regard to our own citizens is wishful thinking at best.

These people who are so distressed about how these islamic terrorists have been treated aren't kidding anyone; what they really want is retrobution against the Bush administration for beating their stupid Algore and John Effing Kerry. Where were they when Clinton was bombing aspirin factories and Chinese embasies? And don't get me wrong--I think that was the right thing to do, even if it was a mistake.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:27:59 AM »

call um spys and hang um .

Cement Man · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:29:15 AM »

Quote from: jimkim on April 24, 2009, 03:41:44 AM

Quote from: gypsyman on April 24, 2009, 03:17:56 AM
If this administration wants to persue war crimes, lets make sure all are included. Which includes ,Pelosi,Biden,Clinton, and 75% of the rest of the Dems, that are making this an issue. These politicians knew what was going on, they were briefed, and a few of them watched how it was done. They keep pushing on this and like issue's, this will energize the terrorists, and we will have another 911. All they see is our gov't acting like kids on the school yard. Instead of focusing on the real issue's, we're bickering amongst ourselve's. gypsyman
Amen to that. I think if they go after one of them they should pursue all of them, but we know that probably wont happen. I would love to have Pelosi under oath and ask her if she is lying about being informed about it or is she incompetent. Remember she is under oath. If they find proof she was told, she could be charged with perjury. I personally think she is just incompetent.

+1. Hold everyone to the same standard!

rex6666 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:32:24 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on April 23, 2009, 07:57:36 AM

There is not one that i know of . Like i said torture is one thing and holding is another .Maybe you can point out the part of the Consitution that addresses enemy combatants . I have no problem holding them . I do not agree they should enjoy the freedoms they wish to destory . You say POW's , then if we call them that - are we at war with the countries they hail from ? If not then who do they fight for ? A religion ? Then is the religion like the Federal govt and each country like a state ? I find it very hard to justify giving them the freedoms and securties of our system when they don't believe in it or allow our people the same .

you have hit the nail on the head.
it is nice to sit and talk about the way things should be in a perfect world
but as has been said we are at war, and like no other we have ever been in.
if it takes different measures then so be it, or we can sit back and say
oh that's not right. In times of war their are always a few that bubble
to the top that are willing to do whatever it takes to defend this country
and thank GOD for them.

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 24, 2009, 05:06:05 AM »

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made so and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"

John Stuart Mill

Pretty much sums up my belief. As I have said before this fantasy world the libs live in where good intentions are always mirrored by good results is very dangerous when that belief comes into play in determining our policy abroad.

CR

Oldshooter · « **Reply #35 on:** April 24, 2009, 05:28:54 AM »

Kinslayer, you ever thought of running for office?

jimkim · « **Reply #36 on:** April 24, 2009, 06:15:20 AM »

From my understanding people not in uniform are spys and can be shot on sight. I say interrogate and execute. No quarter!

jimster · « **Reply #37 on:** April 24, 2009, 06:31:50 AM »

I have no problem extracting information to save American lives. If someone kidnapped any member of my family, and we got the guy but the member of my family was locked up somewhere...water boarding him is the least he would get if I couldn't find out where he had them locked up. If I'm willing to do that, I figure the government can do it to save other American families too. I do not have a problem with interrogate and execute either, doesn't sound good to lot's of people, can't help what it sounds like to them. Being nice to them won't help any of our solders that are sent to another country by our government. They look at us as just being weak if we act nice....that just let's them win a war using are own weaknesses against us. Popularity with people and other countries who are weak minded does not help you accomplish anything against those who would kill us all anyway.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 24, 2009, 06:40:05 AM »

According Kieth Olberman, Rachel Madow and the rest of the Move On.org Obama crowd, we should never, under any circumstances use enhanced interogation to extract information that could directly lead to the saving of potential thousands of lives. These screw balls are the real clowns in our society. They are willing to let us all die while they operate from their ivory tower of protection.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #39 on:** April 24, 2009, 07:16:38 AM »

At one time in this country if you stood by and let Americans die it would have been treason .

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 25, 2009, 11:33:20 AM »

The Leftist want us to conduct war as if we City police on a Domestic Distubance Call. You know block them in get out the bullhorn and negotiators. Plead with them let them talk to their mothers. Then tear gas them and capture without harm. Then call out CSI to glean the crime scene of all forencic evidence. Then on to court and let them tell of their deprived childhood made them kill innocents. The spank them with probation and endless understanding and forgiveness.

the prove every sentence that they have no understanding of war and certainly do not know how to conduct it. War is not a police action in some US city street. War is horror and death and the way you win a war is to put so much horror and death on the enemy that he is either dead or simply can not take it any more and surrenders.

You kill them any way you can and every chance you get without mercy. They expect it and will return the same to you.

War is just that War and as many of us know it is not some game.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:18:20 AM »

I'm curiuos, why has this so called "transparent" administration only released the memo's that support thier effort to go after their political opponants and divert attention away from our real problems and the new problems created by this president? The selective release of these memos is just another of the coordinated attempts to demonize their political opponants. The HS report on "Right Wing Extremists", targeting private citizens, targeting talk show hosts, the selective release of these memo's, etc, all just made up trash for their left wing media pigs.

People in this country are mostly made up of a mass of stupid sheep just following a leadership move towards facisam.

powderman · « **Reply #42 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:30:10 AM »

JIMSTER. Good posts, I agree. I don't care what is done to the Godless ones to get info that will save even ONE innocent life. POWDERMAN.

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #43 on:** April 26, 2009, 10:54:05 AM »

"Becoming what you hate should not be an option or allowed."

Last time I checked our people have not tied up a prisoner in front of a camera and then proceed to cut his head off while bravely hiding their faces behind masks. That I consider to be a major difference in my humble opinion. One that leaves us holding the high ground morally.

This country holds just 5% of the worlds population and produces 25% of the worlds domestic gross product. We are the worlds most generous nation in the categories of private philanthropy and goverment funded philanthropy. In both categories we are almost double the second place country which is Great Britain in both cases. While I am not happy about some of the things we have had to do while trying to win the war on terrorism and I am definately unhappy with some of the things the current administration is trying to do I am not going to start bad mouthing my beloved nation because we waterboarded some muslim extremist. Don't start hating your country because you dislike the last couple presidents.

No oldshooter I have not. As you can see in this thread there are people that cannot be made happy.

CW

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 26, 2009, 12:41:34 PM »

TM7,

Don't hold back on my part I can handle it.

First the super thermite and now Berg and Pearl are spies, and you tell me not to believe everything I watch on television. Or was it teliversion?

It would probably be easier and quicker if you just started a thread listing the things you actually like about the country that you live in.

We are dealing with radical muslim movement that spawns a suicide bomber who walks into a public place and blows himself up killing innocent people and when his mother is interviewed she states "I wish I had twenty more sons to sacrifice for the cause." In my humble opinion we have the moral high ground when campared to people who harbor such beliefs. If that makes me narrrow minded so be it.

You obviously spend a lot of time researching your info which is a positive sign but sometimes your info and spin on that info makes Micheal Moore seem shy and humble.

I want to ask a simple question of you. If it wouold save the life of one of your loved ones would you waterboard someone? If it were the only way to save their life would you do it? A simple yes or no will do. I have already stated my position for all to see. Balls in your court.

CR

powderman · « **Reply #45 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:30:35 PM »

KINSLAYER. You see tm for what he is, good for you. He always backs the Godless ones and blames Israel for all of the ills of the world. What does he like about America??? Nothing. As for the country he lives in?? Who knows, can't be America. POWDERMAN.

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 27, 2009, 04:28:24 AM »

TM7,

I believe after reviewing the thread in question that you were the first to imply gullibility on my part. Then you bring in the "ad hominem" which in its latin form translates as "argument to the man". Very cool! I havent had latin thrown in my face in some time. Of course it by definition does not apply as I did not respond to your argument or "factual claim" by "attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance or the argument or producing evidence of the claim". Nice try though. Your claim that the beheadings were something other than they were portrayed is not "factual".

Anti-Globalist...a philosophy which rejects the current global economics and trade system because of the belief that it undermines the envirement, labor rights, national sovereignty, and the interest of third world states. No I do not consider myself an "anti-globalist". I do have concern about the envirement as does every true sportsman. Labor rights hhhhmmmmmm well I believe you know my opinions on unions from another thread so we will leave that one where it is at.

BTW it was a yes or no question. Before you ask IMHO the question of safety for my loved ones can be boiled down to a simple yes or no answer.

Still waiting for the examples to make the beheadings "pale".

"before plunging headlong into biblical full scale slavery" I have no idea how to respond to that one.

"NWO gitmo culture...which is essentialy one facet of the ancient war on Humanity and Christianity" wow where to start.........waterboarding muslims somehow is part of an ancient war on Christianity?

??

Those pesky "ad hominems"

CR

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #47 on:** April 27, 2009, 04:45:32 AM »

We are in a war with an enemy that has little if any respest for themselves much less us . The idea that they will respect any rules with regard to torture or anything else is stupid on our part. If ANY information we get from torture even 10% reliable is more than we had .
Fighting a war with the equal of having a hand tied behind our back is the height of stupidity . We are a super power and we should act like it !
Any country that attacks us should be punished to the poiint they will not be able to mount another attack on us for generations to come , one only need look at Japan for a model .
If we don't praise those who protect us and forget these foolish law suits then maybe our enemy is correct we are infidels and stupid spoiled brats .

Oldshooter · « **Reply #48 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:09:09 AM »

I've done some contemplation on this dilemma, I do not believe that this administration has any intention of prosecuting anyone! They have accomplished their goal. They have (in their minds) further embarrassed the previous administration which always makes the tingles go up the legs of their supporters like high school girls at a pep rally! I don't think they ever had intentions of prosecuting anyone, the precedent would mean they would be under the gun in 4 - 8 years!

What they intended to do was what was previously mentioned above, in addition to that was to Currie favor with their new found friends in the middle east and south America.

What they may not realise they have done is almost guarantee the future loss of life for our armed services in that this juvenile action will certainly embolden our enemies, as well as give them ammunition in the psychological war that is on going. Not to mention the future civilian casualties in a terrorist attack. They will own these

powderman · « **Reply #49 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:12:56 AM »

SHOOTALL. Agreed, good post. POWDERMAN.

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #50 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:26:04 AM »

SHOOTALL & Oldshooter,

Well said to both of you.

CR

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #51 on:** April 27, 2009, 07:12:51 AM »

The news today has a twist for sure . But if one has read any of the writings of hunters from the late 1800's to about 1955 in Africa it is interesting to see how the Muslim was regarded . It is a suprise that most labor ( skilled and otherwise ) was muslim not Native Tribesman in that time period . Most paid help on safari was Muslim . Yes a few bearers were local but most were not. At that time the Muslim was not trusted by either Whites or African Tribesman . The Muslim traded in the illegal slave trade well into the 1900's . We are not playing baseball where we can choose National vs. American league rules . This is a war a religious war ( by far the worst kind ).
My point - one only need to read history to see the foolish idea of peace when dealing with these people . They want to convert us to be like them . They don't wish to be like us . They tell us this and we still don't get it . They kill us and we worry if we are acting to strong .
Look around like the Jew in their home land we will be surrounded by our enemies if we keep backing up .

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #52 on:** April 27, 2009, 07:52:18 AM »

Shootall, I agree with much of what you said, except that they have no desire to convert us. If we continue in our current direction it would be much easier and less costly to simply eliminate us.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #53 on:** April 27, 2009, 07:53:18 AM »

they need slaves !

teamnelson · « **Reply #54 on:** April 27, 2009, 08:24:45 AM »

Salaam (peace), Muslim (submitted one) both come from the verb "slm" which means to submit. I've been directly involved in the Muslim world for 20 years now, and have interacted with their religious leadership at all levels. The American Muslim Association in 2000 published its national strategy for the eventual Islamicization of the US in 100 years. A slow submission of the people and culture to Islam will produce a type of "peace." The 6th pillar of Islam, according to the Ummah and the Hadith, is Jihad which means a war against the unholy - not people per se, but it can mean infidels. Jihad is a war against all that is not Muslim - submitted to God. Opposing culture, countries, movies, dress, food ... its up there with Prayer, Fasting, and Giving to the Poor. This is the war that has been directed against us, and we cannot opt to sit it out. Islam has no restrictions on the treatment of non-Muslim combatants, and they do not define combatant by a uniform.

The Muslim world loves our new president, and see him from a religious perspective. Prosecuting the previous administration for "war crimes" would give them hope that the Madrasa training of Barak Hussein Obama as a child was effective. They may interpret that as a sign that they have succeeded in placing an ally in the top leadership role in the US, and may give them a rallying cry for recruiting and morale which has been poor in their camp for some time. I don't think he's a "manchurian candidate" for them but his administration is an answer to their prayer.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #55 on:** April 27, 2009, 08:29:24 AM »

I've said this before and I'll say it again! the only time in my life that I had to fight was when my adversary thought I couldn't or wouldn't!
Our military tells them every day that we CAN!(and believe me they know we can) Our president tells them every day that we won't, or that he really does not have the stomach for it. He makes no plans for war which is a deterrent in itself(remember Reagan's anti missile plan(star wars), it didn't have to work so much as it had to be there) The soviet union remembers.

This president is publicly extracting the teeth from our bad dog! So in the eyes of our enemies we look weak which will translate into casualties for us in the future! This may be a nail in his coffin come election time, especially if there is an attack. Then the next president can wave the prosecution flag in his face!

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #56 on:** April 27, 2009, 08:37:42 AM »

TeamNelson, educate me here please?
Peaceful submission is preferred, which is what they feel Obama offers a route to?
Secondarily though, they will achieve it any way possible?
More people need to understand what their intentions are.
Thanks,

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #57 on:** April 27, 2009, 08:41:45 AM »

At every chance they have tried to expand their rule for over a 1000 years . Why would anyone believe they have changed ? They are doing the same thing we have been doing expanding our religion . We don't want to stop why should they ?

teamnelson · « **Reply #58 on:** April 27, 2009, 10:37:07 AM »

Quote from: hunt-m-up on April 27, 2009, 08:37:42 AM

TeamNelson, educate me here please?
Peaceful submission is preferred, which is what they feel Obama offers a route to?
Secondarily though, they will achieve it any way possible?
More people need to understand what their intentions are.
Thanks,

I should perhaps have been clearer ... peaceful submission is not the preference. Submission is the desired endstate - peace is the selling point they use. If one is in complete submission to God per the teachings of Islam, then peace will be the natural byproduct. And any method is ethical, moral and righteous in pursuit of that end because the end justifies the means. Per the Ummah, it is righteous to lie to an Infidel. It is also righteous to bank up one good charitable act in anticipation of 10 sins.

Saddam Hussein protected the Jews and Christians in Iraq from Sunni and Shi'a extremists in order to preserve his power. He was brutal but a true secularist, and saw strong fundamental Islam as a threat to his political power. Since 2003, only 1/3 of the Christians remain and they are persecuted daily. Jews have all fled Iraq. The same issue has been faced in every Islamic Nation in the Middle East and North Africa. Egypt suppressed the Islamic brotherhood; Libya, Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria all wrestle with it. Iran has been on a roller coaster balancing power between the Shah and their "President." China is brutal to their Muslims because they recognize the threat national stability.

The AMA's (all Mosques in the US) 100 yr. plan includes gradually gaining a 51% political majority by Muslims or sympathizers by portraying a softer, gentler peace oriented brand of Islam. Once the majority was obtained, "jihad" would begin and society would more aggressively be brought into submission until the Islamic Republic of North America was achieved. I once asked an American Imam directly who is a member of the AMA to corroborate and he admitted that that is the plan, but assured me it was peaceful. President Obama is viewed as sympathetic to the cause of Islam ... an enabler. He won't be the 12th Imam or the Mahdi perhaps, but his presidency is a check in the win column for Islam.

Personally, and my experience began in the late 80's when I was redesignated and sent to learn Arabic, I have a hard time imagining that strategy will work against American society. Independence remains one of our strongest priorities ... or did. Lately I've been concerned by how quickly the 30 and below Americans are embracing socialism which actually makes it easier for Islamicization - look at Canada and Europe. I do remain hopeful though that there are still enough liberty minded Americans out there that while it may get rocky, we won't submit.

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #59 on:** April 27, 2009, 11:14:29 AM »

The blind nature by which some follow the current president also leads me to believe they would submit easily to a variety of things. I would expect the elite muslims in power would like to avoid another terrorist attack in the next 4-8 years as it would not allow them to advance their cause?
Thanks for the information.