Author Topic: Getting Started -- The Long Slow March (Read 2386 times)

Bart Solo · « **on:** March 05, 2009, 04:25:26 AM »

Well, I have joined SASS -- SASS NO: 83691. Alias Bart Solo. I have purchased a couple of really nice looking Ruger Vaqueros. I have spent time at the local western store buying a cowboy outfit. I have ordered a M-92 clone. Yesterday I picked up a used shotgun from my FFL. I have ordered a belt and holster rig.

On the dark side, the first two shoots of the season have been canceled because of weather. So far the only shooting I have done is to take the Vaqueros to the range for initial break in and practice. About 40 rounds.

During that trip to the range I discovered the base pins would not securely latch and backed out after a few rounds. Both revolvers have the same problem. Apparently the groove on the pin isn't deep enough. One or two turns on the lathe short. A manufacturing defect that could have been easily caught and corrected by a competent quality assurance inspection prior to shipping. To solve the problem I have bought and installed new base pins from Belt Mountain. You would think Ruger would be more helpful if somebody bought brand new revolvers that were defective from the first shots, but they weren't. Apparently customer service is the first casualty of the bad economy. Based on what I was told it is clear they had encountered the problem before. They did send me some latch springs, with no way to easily install them short of hiring a gunsmith. They weren't going to send me the base pins until after I monkeyed around with the latch springs. They are cheaper. They also offered to repair the guns if I paid shipping which is more than the cost of the Belt Mountain pins. Sending them to Ruger would have meant no guns for 4-6 weeks from the day their tech signed them out. I translated "tech signed them out" as meaning 3 months at Ruger, minimum. I know Ruger is in the business of making money, but where is the American pride.

New coach guns are scarce as hens teeth. Apparently a lot of people went a little crazy buying guns and ammunition after Obama was elected. Like black rifles short double barreled shotguns flew off the shelves. I bought a used shotgun cheap. Inspecting it last night I discovered that the screw holding the stock on the frame backs out with any use at all. Looking at how badly the screw had been buggered it is clear that the guy who sold the gun to me knew about the problem. My guess is that is why he sold it cheap. That is OK. Lesson learned.

I have ordered a rifle, but have already been told by the folks here and by a well known gunsmith that the rifle I buy will need work to make it race ready for the cowboy game.

Finally, there is the cost of ammunition (if you can find it.) For some reason 45 Colt is missing from the store shelves. The guy at Bass Pro says he hasn't seen any in a couple of months. Supply and demand being what it is the current cost of the few boxes of 45 Colt ammunition I have found is about $1.00 per shot. No worry, I reload. Of course, it turns out that the powders especially designed to be used by cowboy shooters in the 45 Colt, Titegroup and Trail Boss, are on back order. I have had to substitute with HP-38. We will see what is up with that. Cases are hard to find but I found a box of 100 Hornady cartridge cases that had slipped behind some others on a shelf at Bass Pro.

On the bright side, I have enjoyed talking to everybody I have encountered. Even the people at Ruger were pleasant and to the extent allowed by corporate policy, helpful. I have had the good fortune to discover that one of my son's best friends is an FFL. The guy who sold me the shotgun honestly answered my questions. It isn't his fault that I didn't ask the right ones. Anyway, for the price I paid, I can afford to spend a few bucks having the gun repaired. The local leather worker making my belt and holsters is really nice and helpful. Kelve at Belt Mountain has been the most helpful of all. He suggested a simple repair to the Ruger base pins, but I bought his pins anyway.

The lady at the western store gave me some insight. She told me that she has heard that my wife might get involved. The western store lady also has a friend who shoots cowboy with her husband. The friend says that cowboy shooting is the only activity where the women stand around talking about their custom guns while the men talk about their clothes. Great, I am going to have to start saving up to buy fancy guns for my wife.

That brings me to where I am today. With the bad weather we had last week I don't think there is any more cowboy shooting in my area until the last week of March or the first week of April. I still have a few weeks to practice with the Vaqueros, but I started this adventure back in December and months later I still haven't been able to shoot at a match. Worse, I haven't been able to spend anytime with participants, one of the big reasons I got involved. The one thing I have learned is that cowboy action shooting teaches patience. I guess that is the cowboy way.

PlacitasSlim · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2009, 09:23:43 AM »

Welcome to the sport. I replaced the pins on both my Vaqueros as an update since they are tighter than Rugers. That makes you ahead of the game. You may also want to look at springs from Wolfe as they call them an action job in a box. In fact, I think I have changed the springs in all my cowboy guns. We don't have a Bass Pro or Cabellas nearby, but we do have a sportsmans warehouse and they don't have anything in stock. To buy reloading supplies, I go online and as soon as I find what I want, I buy it. I'm sure you are going to enjoy playing cowboy. SASS#47239

alacharger · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2009, 05:09:42 AM »

Both of my new model Vaqueros had problems with the base pins until I replaced the factory springs with Wolff springs from Brownell's. End of problem.

Ruger's turn around time is usually a lot faster than they can tell you. When my LCP went back for recall, it was back in my hands in 10 days.

I reload every round my family shoots. I have reloaded for 25 plus years, but really got into high gear when we started CAS. Where I used to buy a thousand primers a year, tops, now I buy in 10 and 20 thousand primer lots to cut down on cost. With three shooters, shooting two or three matches per month, and at least three "big" matches per year, I need all the help I can get on supplies.

Welcome to Cowboy Action Shooting. It's more addictive than crack cocaine, and about as expensive

Bart Solo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2009, 08:04:52 AM »

I loaded up a small batch of 45 Colt bullets the other day. Obviously, my single stage press isn't up to the task. I know now that I am going to have to buy one of those fancy progressive presses. Any recommendations?

Bossloper · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2009, 02:06:55 AM »

You do not have to buy an expensive progressive press. I have a Lee breech lock single stage press and can crank out quite a mess of rounds in an hour. But I did buy a Lee hand press & auto prime so that I can deprime, neck size them & install primers while watching television. I'd be surfing the web or just watching tv, so why not prep cases for loading while watching tv. Plus, it's something I do with my daughter because after I deprime & size one, I hand it to her and she puts the primer in it. Then I go to the bench and crank them out. In the beginning I was loading via Lee scoops & a funnel, but then got lucky and found a Lee Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure in the Cabela's bargain barn and it increased my output significantly. If I had to guess, after they're sized and primed, I can crank out 150+ in an hour. Sure, it's not 500 an hour, but the breeck lock makes loading with a single stage press a lot easier because I don't have to adjust the dies everytime I switch them. It has worked exceptionally well for me and all together I have about $100 invested. I think I bought all of it used on Ebay, Gunbroker or a forum like this one. Anyways, it's an option if you don't want to spend, or can't spend the big bucks on a pregressive press. Brett

Bart Solo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:31:06 AM »

The other night I had an hour and decided to see how many bullets I could load. I started about nine o'clock. I quickly discovered that loading brand new brass from start takes about the same amount of time as reloading, except you don't have to pay as much attention to cleaning the cases. Anyway 3 hours later I had 50 finished.

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:32:55 AM »

The Dillon square deal B will crank them pretty fast and you can buy it set-up for 45LC.For the rifle,have you looked at the Marlin 1894 cbc? can be used out of the box most of the time and you can use the gunsmith money for ammo.
SASS #63542

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:08:27 PM »

Quote from: Bart Solo on March 08, 2009, 08:04:52 AM

I loaded up a small batch of 45 Colt bullets the other day. Obviously, my single stage press isn't up to the task. I know now that I am going to have to buy one of those fancy progressive presses. Any recommendations?

Here we go! Askin' that question is kinda like askin' which truck is best - Ford, Dodge, Chevy, GMC, or Toyota! You're going to get a bunch of very honest opinions, but nobody will agree with anybody else!

For what it's worth, I load my main match CAS ammo on a pair of Lee Pro 1000s; one is set up for .38 Special, the other for .45 Colt. The 1000 only has three positions on the turret, and I use a Lee Factory crimp die, so I use one turret with a decapper/resizing die and a second with the powder drop, bullet seater, and Factory Crimp die. I decap, resize, and prime in one pass, dumping all the primed brass into a container, then change to the other turret to finish. It sounds like a lot of trouble, but it goes very fast, since the Lees have a built-in case feeder. Plus, I look into every case as a powder check. My wife and I both shoot CAS, and we shoot at least four matches each month, plus a bunch of annuals and majors. I don't even have a clue as to how many rounds those two Lees have produced, and all of it very good reliable ammo. Both black powder substitute (APP) and smokeless (primarily Trail Boss for CAS). I use the Lee Pro Auto-disc for the powder drop. It takes me around 5 hours to load 1000 rounds, from depriming to finished ammo.

For all the other calibers I load, I've got a Lee Classic Turret. It's very easy to change calibers, and it goes almost as fast as a progressive when you set it up with the Lee Pro Auto-disc for the powder. I load .45 ACP, .454 Casull, .45-70, .30-30, .30-06, .308, and .223 on it now.

The Lees have some quirks about them, but so does every other progressive press out there. Even a Dillon can produce some strange ammo (I've got a good friend that is proof of that; his 650 and case feeder costs more than my entire set of presses, and he gets some really strange ammo). A lot of it is knowing your press, understanding what's going on in the process, and taking your time. I think the Lee gives you the most bang-for-the-buck of any press out there. Other folks say that the Lee is junk. See my first paragraph in this post!

Don't overlook buying a press used. There are some great deals out there, even on eBay. I got both my Lee Pro 1000s used.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:18:59 PM »

Quote from: kitchawan kid on March 09, 2009, 10:32:55 AM

The Dillon square deal B will crank them pretty fast and you can buy it set-up for 45LC.For the rifle,have you looked at the Marlin 1894 cbc? can be used out of the box most of the time and you can use the gunsmith money for ammo.
SASS #63542

The Dillon Square Deal B is an excellent press, but you are limited to using only Dillon dies, as it has a non-standard thread. I won't load anything anymore without a Lee factory crimp die, and you can't use one on the Square Deal B. Plus, with my big hands, there's not a lot of room to work in the Square Deal.

As far as the rifle, I love our Marlins. I've got several '92s and several Marlins. I primarily shoot a Marlin Cowboy 24" barrel, and my wife shoots a Marlin Cowboy Competition 20" barrel. I did my own work on the Cowboy, and it's as slick as the Cowboy Competition. Check out Marauder's website for info on working on your own cowboy guns: http://marauder.homestead.com/irons.html . Of course, having run through over 50,000 rounds now, my Marlin is real slick. I changed to one-piece firing pins and lighter springs in all my Marlins, as much for reliability as for the lighter action. Frankly, the only thing that I like better about the Cowboy Competition is the case-hardened receiver, as it's real pretty. Other than that the only difference in the guns (now) is the barrel length. Of course, Marlin doesn't make the Cowboy Competition any more, just the standard Cowboy, and that only in a 20" barrel.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2009, 05:48:07 AM »

For many years I have used a Lee single stage press to reload 30-06 and 6 MM Remington. I am a bit finicky so I have weighed every powder charge. I haven't really used a powder measure that much. The other night I used a Lee "Perfect Powder Measure." It took me a while to set the measure to the throw the right charge. I had to do a little math and had to tinker a bit. Being finicky I found myself weighing each charge. After the first 20 charges it dawned on me that they were all pretty close. That is when I stopped weighing each charge. Instead I decided to test every 10th charge. Frankly with a little more experience with the powder measure I will probably change the testing regime. I am not loading for my high power rifles after all and the measure is very consistently within a tenth of a grain plus or minus. Any way on reflection I think getting used to the powder measure slowed me down considerably. The case expander die is more important than I realized at first. Making sure it expanded the case deep enough while not too deep was a little time consuming. All in all I think I can beat 50 cartridges in 3 hours, but I am going to need something a more automated than a single stage press to really speed up the process.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2009, 06:33:49 AM »

New developments in the long slow march to getting started. I loaded up some cowboy loads last week and took them to the range. With such mild loads (5.9 grains of HP 38 under a 200 grain cast bullet) I have to wonder why anybody would worry about recoil--what recoil. It is pretty clear that I am still learning how to load 45 LC bullets. Apparently I buggered up a few of the bullets while seating them because I didn't bell the case mouth appropriately. The buggered rounds showed signs of low pressure (gas leakage) and shot low. The properly seated rounds were pretty much on target, very little divergence right or left. As my loading improves I should start to see more consistent accuracy. I have to say those light loads are a real hoot to shoot. I am trying to find a way to get to the range before next weekend and shoot some more.

I am a little worried about the guy making my belt and holster rig. I might have to buy something off the rack if he can't finish the job in a reasonable time frame. I still have a couple of weeks, so not to worry.

Tonight I pick up my Hartford 92 (a 1892 Winchester clone). A couple of weeks ago I bought a double barreled shotgun and was excited to get it. Ten days ago while in Florida I came across an original 1897 Winchester breakdown in 12 gauge at the home of a cowboy shooter and gunsmith. It is tight. It has had very little use since it was manufactured in 1906. I should have bought it, but selling my wife on another gun right now is a little farther than I care to push things. Maybe next month, if he still has it.

Never have I tried so hard to become involved in an activity with so little actual contact with others. While everybody on the web and by phone has been encouraging, I sure hope to start dealing face to face with folks real soon. Maybe I will give the president of the Rocky Branch Rangers a call this week.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2009, 02:49:42 AM »

Well, I picked up my 45 Colt Hartford Model 1892 (really it is a Rossi Winchester 92 clone of the type also called a Puma when sold by Legacy Sports.) Ten shots as fast as you can work the lever. Don't tell Nancy Pelosi, but I now own a 19th century assault rifle.

Can't wait to take it to the range. I have been reading that a lot of folks use it as a brush gun during deer season. Designed by John Browning, it is said to be pretty stout.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:02:00 PM »

Hi, Bart,
The '92 action is arguably the strongest action of any of the 19th century designs. I've got a LSI Puma '92 chambered in .454 Casull, and that gun is essentially the same as your '92 except for the chamber. I can still shoot .45 Colts in it, too.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2009, 04:08:54 PM »

I took the 92 carbine to the range today. Shot cowboy loads. A little high and to the right an inch or so from a rest. Funny it settled right on target from a standing position. The straight stock and butt plate give it sort of a shotgun feel. It reminds me of my little Remington Special Field I use when quail hunting. I like the way it points. The action is just a little stiff. I really need to contact Steve Young (Kiowa Nate Jones) at Stevegunz.com to set up a time this fall for an action job.

Throckmorton · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2009, 05:41:39 AM »

Howdy Pard
before you spend money on an action job on your '92,put a good western on the tv and crank the action a few thousand times while watching tv.I ever ever dry fire a gun,so don't do that,just crank the action.All new metal parts need some breaking in in a lever gun that is not hand-fit...fitted ?
Then go to the range and see how you like it.If it' shoots as fast as you can,you're good to go.If not,Steve Young can work wonders with it.
I put some lube on the top of my hammer,and it seems to make the cycling a bit smoother as the bolt slides over it a bit slicker.

Hope the weather clears for ya so you can git to ringin' some steel soon. It's a hoot !!!!

Throckmorton, SASS *23149

Bart Solo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2009, 05:00:10 PM »

Well there are 4 days left until the next scheduled shoot of the Rocky Branch Rangers in Higginsville, MO. I started all this during deer season when I missed what should have been an easy shot. I realized that I have become a killer bench rest shooter. Targets fall with minute of angle groups. That is great, but I just can't talk deer into walking in front of my bench. I realized that I need to do a lot more rough and ready shooting. The kind of shooting I did as a kid but haven't done in decades. On the way home from my hunt I remembered the Rocky Branch Rangers and a shoot I had attended and photographed. They were called something different then, but they were really, really nice folks. I started planning to go to the shoot scheduled on February 1.

Iza Littleoff, the Rangers president, advised me not to buy anything. A friend said he would lend me his 44 old model Vaqueros. I was going to go watch, visit, maybe shoot Dave's 44's and borrow some other guns from the group. In the meantime I couldn't wait and bought some new model Vaqueros in 45 LC. Well, there was some football game or other on the television machine on February 1, so they canceled. Then I adjusted my schedule to attend the next scheduled shoot on March 1. The pace quickened and I joined SASS. On Valentines weekend I met with a man who shoots with the Rangers and makes belts and holsters. I ordered a John Wayne style belt and a couple of holsters. He suggested I spend money on the belt and go cheap on the first set of holsters because in a few months I will want something different. My badge showed up. The last week of February I bought my first ever felt cowboy hat, pants, shirt and vest. I had owned cowboy boots and one of those "plastic" Shady Brady style cowboy hats before, but that was then and now was now, so I bought some inexpensive boots that were SASS legal to boot. March 1 came and we suffered a snow storm. Of course, the RBR canceled. They had no choice. It snowed a lot.

I purchased a double barreled 12 gauge shotgun from a pard I met on line. I didn't spend much. I hope it works. He tells me he used it for a year in SASS competition. I also ordered a Hartford model 1892 in 45 Colt. With my travel and a death in my FFL's family I didn't pick it up until about 10 days ago. I shot it last weekend. I like it.

Because 45 LC has been hard as heck to come by, I bought dies, brass, powder, bullets and primers. I loaded some for myself. The first couple of batches were a little rough, but I think I am doing pretty well now. I am beginning to experiment with loads. I still need to find some titegroup or trail boss. I don't think HP 38 is going to cut it. Man, 45 is a dirty caliber.

I talked to the really nice guy who is making my belt and holsters. He is behind in his work. He didn't think he would be able to get to my order before late April. I was convinced they wouldn't be ready for Sunday. I was thinking about some kind of jerry rigged outfit or maybe a red sash ala Wild Bill. He called me last night to tell me that he thought he could finish the work this week and I might be able to pick them up Saturday. I have my fingers crossed. Two thumbs up for the Rio Chiquito Kid even if he doesn't pull it off. He told me he couldn't do it, thought about my plight, called me back and told me he is going to try. That is all a man can do.

My wife tells me I am like a kid at Christmas. She hasn't seen me this excited about anything in years. She says she is going to come along to take pictures. I have extra ear and eye protection for her.

All I have left to do is borrow a little red wagon from my granddaughters, buy a gun case (my old one has a problem--long story), find some suspenders and pick up my belt and holsters. Remember I was just going to show up in February and watch, but CAS has taken on a life of its own. Hopefully, I will be able to walk through the shooting on Sunday.

During the last couple of months I have met a lot of great folks some on line like Lazarus Longshot, some on the phone like Iza Littleoff, and some in person like my son's friend Kevin C (my FFL.) I have a new calendar from Belt Mountain enterprises on my gun safe. Thanks Kelye for your help. I have bought 4 guns and if the shotgun doesn't workout I think I know where to find an original Model 1897 in outstanding shape. I have shot pistols for the first time in decades. I have spent a lot more time at the range and have learned about straight case pistol cartridges, expander dies and roll crimping.

Oh, and the deer, I will probably be a better shot next deer season, but that isn't what it is all about. It is about the people I have met during this little journey. It is about being alive.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2009, 04:32:37 PM »

Well, I shot cowboy for the first time today. The weather was cold, wet and miserable. The shooting was wonderful. The new friends I met were even better. I came in dead last, and for good reason. I screwed up a couple of times, but the posse treated me like an old timer. I wasn't a guest. I did every job on the posse except run the timer. I have a lot to learn, but today I learned a lot.

Throckmorton · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2009, 04:25:50 AM »

Congrats on getting that first match under your belt. !! you will never forget it,at least I haven't and it's been about a dozen years ago.
Downloaded 45's will shoot dirty,and I just accept it because I want to RING the steel,not 'ding' it, lol
I use Unique becasue it is the old standby for the caliber,but I tried W231 once and would stonghly reccomend that powderI use the same ammo for both pistols and carbine just to make life easier,how bout you ?

Oh,and the

never ever goes away !!!

Bart Solo · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2009, 08:58:14 AM »

I couldn't find any Titegroup, so I am using HP-38. Looking at the books, HP-38 is the ballistic twin of Win 231. In fact, I wonder if it isn't the same powder. I need to do some research. I talked to a guy Saturday who swears by Win 231. That is the only pistol powder he uses. He claims it can handle most any load.

I don't load any differently for pistol and rifle. Using the same ammunition is the whole point isn't it. I am loading 6.0 grains of HP-38 instead of the 5.9 recommended in the manual for cowboy loads. I went with 6.0 because after weighing a lot of samples, I don't trust my powder measure to be much more accurate than to .1 of a grain. At 6.0 I don't risk falling out of the bottom. None of the rounds I shot Sunday showed any of the low pressure signs that some of my earlier bullets did.

That might be because I loaded to 6.0 and none of the rounds fell below 5.9 grains, but it is more likely that I have properly adjusted my expander die so that I don't shave any lead. For me the expander die has been the trickiest part of loading straight walled handgun ammunition. You want to make sure the bell is adequate to fully accept the bullet but not so big that it shortens case life. I also discovered yesterday that a hard crimp isn't really necessary.

I am going to make some adjustments the next time I shoot. Among others I am going to learn how to cock with my left thumb. I am also going to practice opening my shotgun. I am also going to learn how to follow the stage instructions better. Most importantly I am going to add some kit. First, I am going to buy one of those strips that lets you carry just the right number of bullets to the loading bench. I am going also buy one of those belt attachments to hold my shotgun shells. Until one of the guys loaned me his spare, I had to carry them in my vest pocket. I also need a small leather bag for my empties. Some guys use the leather bag to carry bullets to the loading table and away from the unloading table. I am also going to find a gun cart. As I was leaving one of the guys sidled up to me and whispered that I need a knife. All good cowboys need a knife. They don't do anything with it, but they all have one. The knife isn't as important as the other stuff, but just as fun.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:45:30 PM »

Congrats on makin' it to a match, Bart! It only gets better from here.

There's lots of little things you'll find that make it easier and more fun to shoot. I like the loading strips 'cause it's real easy to show the Loading Table Officer what you've got. I also use a small leather bag for empties, but some folks use the Crown Royal purple bags. I gotta admit, when ya buy the CR bag you get a really good bottle of whiskey for free with it.

I use a shotgun slide on my gunbelt, but other folks really like a separate shotgun belt. I've got a sg belt for those stages with more than seven shotgun targets, but I don't like to use it. To each his own!

Knives are cool. Don't forget the pocket watch (hint: Wal-Mart carries pocket watches for cheap, as long as you don't mind a battery-operated one).

A good friend of mine swears by HP-38. I use Trail Boss for my smokeless powder because it makes a double charge dang near impossible; the powder will overflow the case. Plus, if you use a tight crimp, I find Trail Boss a very clean powder.