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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« on: October 14, 2008, 12:00:15 PM »
I looked in the FAQ's and what I've seen discussed was 223 ammo.
Is any and all mil sup a no-no in a Handi?

Thanks -g
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Offline Troyboy

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 12:19:32 PM »
Stay with .223. Stay away from 5.56 Use quality (not wolf) ammo.



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Offline petemi

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 12:34:19 PM »
Troy, I guess you hit the nail on the head.  My argument has been if you are going to buy "quality" ammo, go with the .22-250.  A buck or so more a box, but much better performance.  There is a lot of cheap .223 ammo around, but what good is it.  I'd rather be shooting Hornady, Winchester, Federal or Remington.  I also dislike FMJs and the whine in the air when they fly off to God knows where.
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 01:17:24 PM »
The only caliber I saw mentioned in FAQ's was 223.
Is mil sup ammo not a good idea in any caliber in the Handi?
I'm getting a new 308 and was wondering. Thanks. -g
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Offline petemi

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 02:07:58 PM »
I don't think there is anything "wrong" with mil surp ammo.  I just don't think it is worth it unless you shoot it just to plink targets against a good backstop.  I don't believe it is superbly accurate, mostly dirty to shoot, richochets a lot.  I did kill one coyote with it who was dumb enough to stroll out on the range at 275 yards while I was setting up.  That was a .308 sighted in at 200, so it was aim a tweek high and touch and go.  Bye yote. 

I guess the bottom line is, I don't like them.  I bought 400 rounds of .308 Belgian mil surp about 6 or 8 years ago, and a good 250 of them are sitting in a plastic battle pack on the bottom of the closet.  That's how much I love 'em!
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Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline Troyboy

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 02:44:52 PM »
I agree 100% I bought some mill surp 308 thinking i would shoot it up and reload the brass. shoots like a shotgun. Never again. Handi's do not like milsurp. Do not waste your time. It's a mute point as good milsurp is almost as much as commercial. Stick with .223 and .308


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Offline Saloon slug

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 04:22:19 PM »
The main lawyer concern with Milsurp 5.56 and 7.62 is that it is loaded to higher presure then SAMMI specs. As to the .308 shooting shot gun patterns most of the 7.62X51 ammo out there was loaded for machine guns and the powder charges vary from one round to the next slightly to give a pattern when fired full auto not a conducive thing when trying to shoot tight groups in a single shot or bolt action.
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Offline TribReady

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 04:27:58 PM »
Saloon slug-that may be one of the best and concise answwers yet regarding milsurp ammo.  So many people just instantly say it's crap or they hate it without looking at WHY

I will agree with most posts, it's just not worth it, get some decent stuff with reliable, consistant charges.  Plus, cleaning after corrosive primers just adds one more thing to worry about.
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Offline Saloon slug

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 04:42:42 PM »
Why thanks TribReady.
The only 7.62X51 Military ammo not intended for machine guns is made for snipper rifles and that stuff is all match grade and they dont sell it Milsurp. Just bits of info you learn when you are a Marine Corps gun nut ;D.

Now the 5.56 ammo can be vary accurate and good quality ammo if your gun happens to like it but with the higher pressure I would only shoot it in a bolt action or an AR just a matter of those being stronger actions then the H&R.
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 05:13:50 PM »
Thanks for the replys. With my first new Handi coming, I was not so much concerned with it shooting one ragged hole but as ammo for the break in on the barrel. -g
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 05:27:54 PM »
Hummmm,  ???  I like mil surp 5.56 and 7.62... and 30 cal and 303 and 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R.  But I'll agree most of the good stuff has gotten so expensive now I don't buy much anymore.  And I'm down to a few thousand of the former and a few hundred of the latter.  But I don't see much sense in shooting them in a Handi when there are so many deserving AR's, FAL's, SMLE's, Garand's, etc. that need feeding!   ;D

Oh, and Pete, just send me that nasty ol' Belgium Battle pack that's taking up space at your place.  I'll pay shipping...  Don't even bother checking to see what it would sell for old friend... trust me to rid you of it!   ;)

That reminds me... note to self: Order 8x57 and 7.62x54R light ball from AIM.  8)
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Offline cjclemens

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 05:39:41 PM »
My .223 handi doesnt like military surplus loads.  Occasionally Ill have one that just wont fire - most likely due to the hard primers.  Also, cases tend to stick.  Not to mention the accuracy I get from handloads.  I like to see what a cartrige can do outside its standard use.  Once you get away from 55gr fmj's and ball powder you get to see the .223's full potential.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 06:58:12 PM »
I use 7.62 ammo in my Parker Haile .308 and it works just fine.  But that is a bolt gun.  For many years I would pull the military ball and replace with a premium bullet of the same weight.  Killed many Caribou and Deer with those loads.  I've never picked up any 5.56 ammo.

I get a lot of once fired mil brass in 5.56 and 7.62.  It is heavier than the civilian version, which means they are smaller in volume inside.  Therefore when you start working up a load with them, you need to start out 10% lower than the posted numbers in most manuals.  I reload them twice then toss them.  In that application they both work just fine as well.  I also buy a lot of Ultra Max which is remanufactored ammo.  They buy surplus once fired military brass and reload it.  It shoots very good in my H&R Ultra in .223.  Fairly accurate out to 500 yards.  Good hunting rounds, since they load Nosler Ballistic tips and V-Max.  They also reload other types of bullets, but those are the only ones I am interested in and buy.
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Offline Steve P

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 09:47:02 AM »
Most military ammo is loaded to Mil-spec requirements which is not the same as SAAMI requirements.  Because the specs are not the same, the ammo is considered to be "different".  Most military rifles are chambered to "field" guage.  They have a longer throat in the barrel and they are expected to fire ammo, even if it has a little dirt on it or dirt built up in the chamber. 

Most 5.56 ammo is made to minimum case tolerances with pressures up to 60k.  SAAMI pressures for .223 is 50K.  Most rifles chambered in .223 Winchester are considerably tighter to SAAMI tolerance and have a shorter throat.  The higher pressure 5.56 ammo can even be dangerous to shoot in a .223 due to the throat difference and minor shoulder angle difference. 

I have several .223 contender barrels and a .223 Handi.  None of them know the difference between 5.56N and .223 when it comes to shooting, accuracy, and brass extraction.  I have checked mine out to be sure.  Please do the same.

Steve :)
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Offline blackpowderbill

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2008, 04:02:05 AM »
I have to take exception to the idea that most 7.62 Nato is innaccurate MG ammo. I will not attempt to speak to ammo other than US but can say that US M80 ball is loaded to rather tight accuracy requirements and weather is is accurate in your gun or not has more to do with how well is matches your guns likes or dislikes than its quality. The ammo in US inventory is periodically tested for accuracy and function. If it fails to meet specs then we Navy Gunners started getting NARs, AINs and "Not for Overhead Fire" notices. Those would be sent out for specific lot numbers of ammo. If you thinks your US mil surp 7.62 isn't working as designed contact your friendly Navy GM and give him the lot number to run against his message file.
  Also the difference between rifle and machine gun ammo is NIL. M80 ball is packeged both fo MG and rifle. They are NALCs A130 and A131, one is in five shot stripper clips and one is in 100 round belts. Otherwise it is the same ammo. There are other NALCs out there too, I was just givving an example. There was a difference back when we issued 30-06 but that was long ago. Back then the Garand would rip the heads off "soft" MG ammo and get their op rod beat up; the MGs would no function well with ammo loaded
(M-2 ball) for the Garand. The Garand was the odd man there; the MG ammo (M1 ball) was the same ammo used in our M1903 rifle.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 01:27:43 AM »
My dad once got a "deal" and bought up 2,000 rounds of 5.56, already loaded in magazines.  We tried the stuff in an AR with about every 3rd. round not seating.  It was even worse in a Ruger Mini.  We pulled the bullets, sized and reloaded most of it.

On the other hand, I have a well used SKS that loves the Wolf.  Thats the only ammo I buy for it.  But...it ain't exactly a match grade gun is it?

Ben
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Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 02:23:58 AM »
My old boss used to shoot alot of milsurp in his 700 chambered for 308... He got decent accuracy...


Mechanic,
You talk about an sks loving wolf... They love everything... You could run the bullets over in your truck load them in your rifle and they'd still function...
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 09:20:34 AM »
Stumpjmpr,

You are correct about the SKS.  Push come to shove though, its my favorite gun.  Already beat all to heck and rusty when I got it, never failed to fire and will take down a deer when I want it to.  I bought mine when they could be had for $69.00.  Don't know if I'd pay the price I've seen them for lately, but then again, wouldn't sell it for that either..

Ben
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Offline Guy Pike

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2008, 11:21:44 AM »
At this time it would seem prudent for each household to posses a semi-auto firearm chambered for 5.56 Nato as it will aid one in acquiring ammunition from fallen enemy troops. Much more likely to be carrying 5.56 than 7.62 of any variety!
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 12:56:30 PM »
Ooooooh :o
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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 03:07:08 PM »
Guy Pike:
Don't have to worry about picking up enemy ammo.
Have about 15 mags loaded with two rounds shy for the AR!
Along with around 400 loaded rounds for my M1 CARBINE and another 1600 06 for my GARAND.
ALL HPs! Nothing to good for my little buddies!!!
If they come all I can say (TO QUOTE THE LATE DUKE) "FILL YOUR HANDS YOU SONS !%$@$#"


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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 04:49:24 PM »
So let me rephrase the question. Is 308 Mil Sup ammo safe to shoot in a Handi? I know a Mis Sup rifle which the ammo were intended for will shoot it as I own many! I've only seen mention of 223 in the FAQ and not to shoot it. I'm not concerned with it being accurate, but only for a short barrel break purpose. -g
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 06:13:59 PM »
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 07:52:27 PM »
Thanks Quick. I have an Indian Ishapore-2A that I've shot thousands of both 7.62 and Win 308 out of. After reading your links I think factory 308 rounds and some JB bore paste will round out my barrel break in thank you very much! 

 ;) -g
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Offline nicholst55

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Re: Mil Sup Ammo Warrning?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2008, 03:43:30 PM »
Quote from: Steve P on October 16, 2008, 09:47:02 AM
Most 5.56 ammo is made to minimum case tolerances with pressures up to 60k.  SAAMI pressures for .223 is 50K.  Most rifles chambered in .223 Winchester are considerably tighter to SAAMI tolerance and have a shorter throat.  The higher pressure 5.56 ammo can even be dangerous to shoot in a .223 due to the throat difference and minor shoulder angle difference. 
Steve :)

Actually, the difference is in the length of the case neck and the throating of the chamber.  Military 5.56mm brass has a neck significantly   longer than .223 Rem brass; measure some and see.  NATO-spec chambers also have a L-O-N-G throat, while .223 Rem chambers tend to be much shorter.  Shooting 5.56mm ammo (or untrimmed brass reloads) in a .223 Rem chamber can cause significant chamber pressure spikes, because the case is jammed into the rifling and can't expand easily to release the bullet.  It won't happen in all guns or barrels, but is DOES  represent a potential danger.

Other than that, who wants 3-5" groups with their Handi?
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