Author Topic: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer  (Read 3945 times)

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Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2008, 03:19:39 AM »
Thanks for posting your facts!  I hear a lot of claims but those who go the extra mile to prove what they are saying get a gold star in my book! (Not that it matters :)  )
I'm voting 3rd party in this election by writing in Jesus Christ for president.  Sadly even if this were an option most of you would still vote Republican because "It's a two party system."

Offline DCRthe3rd

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2008, 03:44:12 AM »
He used a Saiga, not an SKS in Wisconsin.


steve

Thanks Steve, I thought it was an SKS.  Do you know what the courts did with that guy?
I to thought it was an sks , anyhow I believe they found him guilty and he was looking to serve UP TO life in the pokey , but did not hear what the sentence actually was because like normal , the news just wants to shock and scare you , so no reason to update these stories they beat to death, who cares right?

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2008, 05:50:59 AM »
I did find this info that supports my statement: ...This came from a 1991 paper put out by the U.S. Army Ballistics Research Laboratory.

I read that study and others several years ago when researching this question.  But, rather then hijack this thread, as soon as I have the time to devote to stating my position completely I'll start a new one.  I'm going to have to find my citations of authority again and it's getting close to deer season.   ;D
Richard
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2008, 06:08:05 AM »
The 2004 shooter in Wisconsin was Chai Vang, he did use a Saiga and is currently serving 6 consectutive life sentences plus 70yrs in the Iowa state pen.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Vang
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 06:12:31 AM »
I've always heard that too.  Kill one man and you eliminate one man from the line.  Injure him, and it removes him and 2 of his buddies who have to take him the the aide station.

Heck, everybodies heard that!  I first heard it 46 odd years ago!   ::)  And that may even still be true... for our and other "civilized" armies.  But let me tell you, the soldiers in the one enemy force I have gotten into uh, disputes with never skipped a beat when the guy next to him went down!  Nor, I've heard but wasn't there, did the Russian army in WWII.  But that wasn't Nat's statement I was questioning.  This is:  "the NATO .223 (5.56 mm) round is designed to wound/incapacitate rather than kill,"

There seems to be a lot of interest here!  Someone else can start that thread, Nattie?  Y'all don't have to wait for me!  ;D
Richard
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Offline mitchell

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2008, 06:21:58 AM »
  The Army has re-issued an ass load of M-14's for use in Iraq and Afghanistan for those reasons (they've also send a bunch of old M113 APC's to Iraq, because the M-2 Bradleys and Strykers are too big to be as manueverable in urban warfare).

i only know 2 people who still use their m14's( mine is locked up in a brad) most everybody just locks them up

i think you might be wrong there buddy. my trp has brads tanks 113 humvee and mraps, i operate in both in the city and the country, i've been here almost 11 months and i've never seen a 113 out side the wire only see a tank out a few time and i've seen brads and wheels out fighting everyday. a brad is only two feet wider then a 113 and when crap hits the fan that big 25MM busting out some HE will put some wood in your pants in a second.


also i have a M14 i do like it and have took it out a few time in my opinion it has no use in this fight, if i'm going on qa sniper mission i want my M24 if i'm not then just give me my m4 . i've made better shots with it then i have my m14 , and keep in mind when i go out i carry nine 28 round mags  try carring that much 762 with you on a dismounted patrol and you'll be broke off before you even find a fight to use your sweet little m14
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Spanky

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2008, 07:30:44 AM »
Mitchell,

It's great to hear from you lately!!
Stay safe brother. ;)


Spanky

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2008, 08:05:00 AM »
Mitchell,
It's great to hear from you lately!!
Stay safe brother. ;)

+1 from me Mitch!
Come home safe and sound Brother!
Richard
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Offline Natty Bumppo

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2008, 08:18:16 AM »
  The Army has re-issued an ass load of M-14's for use in Iraq and Afghanistan for those reasons (they've also send a bunch of old M113 APC's to Iraq, because the M-2 Bradleys and Strykers are too big to be as manueverable in urban warfare).

i only know 2 people who still use their m14's( mine is locked up in a brad) most everybody just locks them up

i think you might be wrong there buddy. my trp has brads tanks 113 humvee and mraps, i operate in both in the city and the country, i've been here almost 11 months and i've never seen a 113 out side the wire only see a tank out a few time and i've seen brads and wheels out fighting everyday. a brad is only two feet wider then a 113 and when poop hits the fan that big 25MM busting out some HE will put some wood in your pants in a second.


also i have a M14 i do like it and have took it out a few time in my opinion it has no use in this fight, if i'm going on qa sniper mission i want my M24 if i'm not then just give me my m4 . i've made better shots with it then i have my m14 , and keep in mind when i go out i carry nine 28 round mags  try carring that much 762 with you on a dismounted patrol and you'll be broke off before you even find a fight to use your sweet little m14

Well, my personal observations may be old news now (but the fact that you have an M-14 and know of others sort of backs up what I said about their re-issuance) - I was over there from Sep '04 thru Aug '05, and we had an entire company's worth of M113's (spread throughout the brigade) "outside the wire" (plus Brads and M-1's).   We were in Baghdad, and had (by the time we left - at one time we stretched from Taji down to and including the "triangle of death," Mamuhdia, Usufia area) the west side of the river from Taji down to and including Route Irish, and west to the boundary with the Marines.  We started out outside the city and rotated into the city as the 1st Cav units left.  We used Bradleys and tanks in the sticks, mostly, and on the main routes in town.  In the close places in the city, we used wheels and 113's usually.  I had 4 M-14's in my platoon, and most of our platoons had 3 or 4.  The M-14's usually stayed on the vehicles until we needed them.  I carried an M-4 and liked it a lot, didn't have any problems with the sand - but on the other hand, I was seldom out more than 24 hours at a time, and it's pretty easy to get one clean when you're in an air conditioned trailer at Camp Victory, lol.  The attached pic shows one of my vehicles with a scoped M-14 on the dash - the guy who carried it is in the right seat holding an M-16A4 between his knees.  I'm proud of you for serving your country - will be glad to see you back home next month.

Offline DCRthe3rd

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2008, 06:27:37 PM »
The 2004 shooter in Wisconsin was Chai Vang, he did use a Saiga and is currently serving 6 consectutive life sentences plus 70yrs in the Iowa state pen.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Vang
OOH , so they stacked em up on him did them , good move for sure. I do recall hearing they couldn't execute him since that option was not on the books , there's crazy's everywhere , even in the tree tops ::)

Offline mitchell

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2008, 05:04:26 AM »
15 month tours man i got 4 more. i guess differant units do things differant. i've never seen one out side tho i operate in the south side of mosul and only 4k out of the city puts you in some really hilly part of country that really the only place around here that a long range gun comes in handy. the rest of the time , m4 gets the job done
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2008, 06:09:53 AM »
Not meaning to hijack the thread by speaking of deer hunting, but, it really takes vary little to kill a deer, a .22 short almost anywhere in the body will kill, sooner or later, usually. Kill and recover are two different things. Still, it takes very little to kill and recover a deer with a well placed shot. The 44/40, 38/40 and even the 32/20 were quite popular deer rifles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and none carried even 500 ft. lb. to 100 yards. For that matter, muzzleloaders with round balls seldom carry 500 ft. lb. at 100 yards and plenty of deer fall to round balls every year. It's all about shot placement, a properly placed shot doesn't require much power and if poorly placed, power is not much help.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline will36

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2008, 10:56:43 AM »
The 2004 shooter in Wisconsin was Chai Vang, he did use a Saiga and is currently serving 6 consectutive life sentences plus 70yrs in the Iowa state pen.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Vang




What a waste of tax payers money to feed and house him for the rest of his life.  Hook him up 20,000 volts and pull the lever down! 

I can say this and sleep at night . I also have a cousin that got "LIFE" at the age of 18 . I think its a waste to keep him alive also.  It just drags out the crime for both famlies for NO good reason.

sorry for the rant and hi jack of this post.

Offline Walks with a gimp

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2008, 05:48:08 PM »
  I loaned my .223 Handy to my neighbor last year and he took a big doe at 100 yards with a frontal neck shot. Dropped her where she stood. I took the same rifle and also dropped a big doe a week later with a 15 yard shot to the shoulder. There were bullet fragments laced throughout what was once her lungs in the chest cavity. The ammo was Winchester 55 grain Ballistic Silver Tips.
   I sure wouldn't want to get shot with that load! Many larger caliber bullets will leave an exit hole but the right .223 bullet expends all it's energy inside.

Offline Natty Bumppo

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2008, 06:33:23 AM »
15 month tours man i got 4 more.

15 months would stink - 12 months was too long, lol.  Come back safe.

Offline mitchell

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2008, 07:13:55 AM »
got to do what you have to do , it puts food on the table
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Datil

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2008, 08:38:37 AM »


 Take care Mitchell See you at the next P. Dog shoot.
 Marv.

Offline JPShelton

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2008, 12:21:28 AM »
  And yes, if it kills people efficiently, it will certainly take deer.


i call BS i've shot deer with a 223 and if you shoot them behind the shoulder they will run a long way. now i've seen people shot in shoulders, neck, gut and all other places and they all fall in their tracks. it takes a lot less energy to kill a person thenit does a deer.


but that being said , yes i think a 763X39 will kill a deer just fine. use the right bullets and don't take em out too far and you'll be just fine

I've shot deer with the .223, .243, .250 Savage, .270, 7-30 Waters, .280, .30-30, .308, .30-'06, .300 Weatherby Mag, and the .303 British. 

I've also shot them with .357 Magnum at distances up to 70 paces and all three were DRT. 

I've shot them with .44 Percussion Revolvers, too.  Both were one-shot kills at over 25 paces.

I've shot them with a .495 patched round ball from my .50 Lyman GPR, too.

Of these, I've killed more deer with the .223 than anything -over twenty five. 

In my 32 years of deer hunting, I've come to believe that the often-mentioned "1,000 ft/lbs requirement" for killing deer is pretty meaningless.  What matters more is using a bullet or ball made for the purpose and putting it where it need to go.

I say this with confidence because the only deer that I've ever had to shoot more than once happened to be the only deer I ever killed with a .300 Wby.  It was a perfect broadside shot.  It was a mighty long poke for me at 275 paces, but nothing that one of the world's most powerful .30 caliber rounds shouldn't have easily handled.  I hit it once.  It didn't move.  I hit it again.  It didn't move.  The third shot broke both shoulders and that dropped it.

The first two shots made neat little .308" entry and exit wounds, doing very little damage to tissue in between them in spite of bringing a whole lot more than 1,000 ft pounds of energy to the target.  I don't think the deer even knew what hit it -or that it had been hit with anything, for that matter.

In the darkness of the pre-dawn, I stuffed my ammo carrier and the chamber of the rifle (Ruger No.1) with ammo intended for range work that I'd loaded with 220 grain MatchKings.  They might have brought more than 1,000 ft pounds to bear, but they didn't deposit much of it into the target.

Based on that one less than stellar experience, I could say that the .300 Wby is an inadequate round.  Of course, we all know that isn't the case.

But it is the case when the wrong bullet is used and it isn't put in exactly the right spot.  So it is with the .223, as well.  So it is with everything in between.

I'd obviously rather use the .223 than the 7.62 X 39 because that is what I use, but that said, if a 7.62 X 39 was what I had, I wouldn't hesitate to fill my freezer through using it.  There is no doubt in my mind that it will get the job done.

-JP

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2008, 05:30:08 AM »
Well said sir, I believe I've written something pretty similar myself, slightly different list of calibers but leading to the same conclusion, put the bullet in the right place and great power isn't needed, put it in the wrong place and great power doesn't much help. I don't know who came up with that arbitrary number of 1000 ft.lb but I am certain they did not arrive at that number through actual experience.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2008, 11:01:31 AM »
It seems to me that alot of time when people start talking about7.62 and 5.56 they forget that there is a huge diffrence between military ball, (aka FMJs) and a soft pointed round. SP will almost always perform better on any critter 2 legged or 4. FMJs are used buy the military to satisfy the geneva convention on how to fight a civilized war. ( I still don't get that)

The 7.62X39 is a dandy deer cartridge at 150 yards or less its as good as any other. I don't take long shots, they are not required here where I live 25 to 50 yards being more the norm so I like the heavy 154s. Light weight easy to shoot sounds good to me.
Badnews Bob
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Offline ScatterGunner

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2008, 02:52:54 PM »
tonight i finished up loading 25 rounds with .311" 150 grain sierra soft points with 28 grains of H322.

wednesday late afternoon the gun and i go to the range to see how things shoot.

i am confident.

"SG"
there''s room for all of God''s fauna and flora, right on my dinner plate!

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2008, 12:51:13 AM »
check out my latest range report as it pertains to this thread

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,152856.0.html

Offline bilmac

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2008, 01:51:20 AM »
Wounding rather than killing soldiers has been accepted doctrine of many countries for a long time, and the commies bought into it big when they adopted the 7.62x39. Makes pretty good sense when they see the extreme concern American soldiers have for fallen buddies. Something not mentioned yet is the fact that American soldiers will take extreme risks under fire to rescue their friends thus making themselves vulnerable.

At the time of Viet Nam the US was not of that mindset yet. We had always had the picture of the crazed Morros charging and killing GIs since the Phillipines. The 223 in Viet Nam had a 55 gr bullet that was marginally stabelized and designed to tumble when it met flesh, which caused severe damage. Because it was designed that way it was criticised for bad penetration. Leaves or grass in the line of fire sent the little bullets off into the next county.

Today's Nato 223 is different. It has the heavier bullet and is strongly stabelized. It will penetrate well but cause less significant wounds. I hadn't heard that the US military had gone over to the "wounding is better" theory but apparently it has.

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2008, 03:00:39 AM »
  And yes, if it kills people efficiently, it will certainly take deer.


i call BS i've shot deer with a 223 and if you shoot them behind the shoulder they will run a long way. now i've seen people shot in shoulders, neck, gut and all other places and they all fall in their tracks. it takes a lot less energy to kill a person thenit does a deer.


but that being said , yes i think a 763X39 will kill a deer just fine. use the right bullets and don't take em out too far and you'll be just fine

I've shot deer with the .223, .243, .250 Savage, .270, 7-30 Waters, .280, .30-30, .308, .30-'06, .300 Weatherby Mag, and the .303 British. 

I've also shot them with .357 Magnum at distances up to 70 paces and all three were DRT. 

I've shot them with .44 Percussion Revolvers, too.  Both were one-shot kills at over 25 paces.

I've shot them with a .495 patched round ball from my .50 Lyman GPR, too.

Of these, I've killed more deer with the .223 than anything -over twenty five. 

In my 32 years of deer hunting, I've come to believe that the often-mentioned "1,000 ft/lbs requirement" for killing deer is pretty meaningless.  What matters more is using a bullet or ball made for the purpose and putting it where it need to go.

I say this with confidence because the only deer that I've ever had to shoot more than once happened to be the only deer I ever killed with a .300 Wby.  It was a perfect broadside shot.  It was a mighty long poke for me at 275 paces, but nothing that one of the world's most powerful .30 caliber rounds shouldn't have easily handled.  I hit it once.  It didn't move.  I hit it again.  It didn't move.  The third shot broke both shoulders and that dropped it.

The first two shots made neat little .308" entry and exit wounds, doing very little damage to tissue in between them in spite of bringing a whole lot more than 1,000 ft pounds of energy to the target.  I don't think the deer even knew what hit it -or that it had been hit with anything, for that matter.


In the darkness of the pre-dawn, I stuffed my ammo carrier and the chamber of the rifle (Ruger No.1) with ammo intended for range work that I'd loaded with 220 grain MatchKings.  They might have brought more than 1,000 ft pounds to bear, but they didn't deposit much of it into the target.

Based on that one less than stellar experience, I could say that the .300 Wby is an inadequate round.  Of course, we all know that isn't the case.

But it is the case when the wrong bullet is used and it isn't put in exactly the right spot.  So it is with the .223, as well.  So it is with everything in between.

I'd obviously rather use the .223 than the 7.62 X 39 because that is what I use, but that said, if a 7.62 X 39 was what I had, I wouldn't hesitate to fill my freezer through using it.  There is no doubt in my mind that it will get the job done.

-JP

JP,
I agree with you 100% with that.  I too have noticed the fast moving rounds aren't the best deer killers.  I believe the bullet construction is too tough and the bullet is moving too fast to deposit alot of energy into the intended target.  The first deer I killed was shot with a .270 win at a range of about 40 yards.  It was in a fast walk when i pulled the trigger, it didn't even act like it was hit.  The deer just kept walking.  I shot the deer once more and put him on the ground.  I have seen similar results at close range with that rifle.  After it gets past 100 yards it seems to put the animal down alot faster than up close.  I have also shot deer and hogs within 100 yards with the 30-30 which as you know is a slow moving round with a fairly soft bullet construction.  Most of the animals shot with the 30-30 dropped right there.

Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2008, 07:35:43 AM »
I've got a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39 that shoots everthing that i have tried very well.  I just picked up a box of Wolf 154 gr. SP's that I haven't had a chance to try yet.  If it is as accurate as the rest, I'll give it a try this year.

Offline prairiedog555

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2008, 01:51:56 PM »
Back to deer hunting.
I shot a very big doe at 15yd with 762x39.  Used a 123gr Wolf hollow pt.  Shot as it ran towards me on a drive.  Hit it in the chest, later found that bullet had grazed the heart and then broke up, fragmented.  Deer ran down hill, so I shot again and broke back leg, still had to shoot in neck to kill.
So, I will never use that bullet again, I have heard from friends that they have had much better luck with the 150gr. softpoint, but not much luck with Rem 123gr. bullets.  And with the 150gr softpoint I would limit shots to under 100yds.  That is consensus opininon around here where the round is used quite a bit.  But deer run big here in Ks,  this doe was over 200lb.
I like the gun but personally would not use it for deer again, I have other alternatives, why take the chance of losing a deer wounded, I like to shoot and turn out the lights.

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2008, 01:54:15 PM »
From what I've heard and read, the Winchester 123gr softpoint is about the best hunting load out there for deer and boars.  BUT, you can find some loads with a 123gr Hornady SST load that might work well on deer sized game too.

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2008, 01:45:44 AM »
The wolf hollow point is a poor choice for a hunting round, its being made as a target round the 123gr SPs work well and I think the 154gr SPs work even better, Its a popular hunting cartridge around here but most use SPs , the 154 by far the popular choice.
Badnews Bob
AE-2 USN retired

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2008, 05:53:07 AM »
The wolf hollow point is a poor choice for a hunting round,

That was my first thought also.
Richard
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Offline mrbgt

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Re: 7.62 x 39 commie on deer
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2008, 06:11:39 AM »
stay away from the cheap commie stuff for hunting , the hollow point might as well be an fmj . i dig them out of my dirt backstop all the time and they are completely intact with absolutely no expansion