Author Topic: The true Abe Lincoln  (Read 8569 times)

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2008, 06:09:17 PM »
ironfoot, at the same time Lincoln was giving this flowery speech to his southern country men he was also going to make good on his THREAT to DOUBLE tariffs on EXPORTS of textiles to Europe, and try and FORCE the southerner to sell to the industrialized north. This too is HISTORY.
Ga.windbreak can possibly help me with the numbers but, I believe that less than 5% of the population of the south held slaves, and about 3% of the north held slaves.
The REAL issue was not slavery, although slavery was an issue. Lincoln hid the real issues BEHIND SLAVERY, as it was a more noble cause than stealing textile production from southern producers.
As for Lincoln's greatness? Andy Jackson was considered a great man, but I doubt the American Indian would agree given his tactics. JMO

Dee I just found another link which answers your question about the numbers of slaves in the north. I must admit that I was wrong as to a count being taken and this link also explains just how Mass. handled ridding itself of slavery.

 http://www.southernslavery.com/articles/myth_of_abolition.htm

quote:
 The erroneous impression in reference to the "philanthropy" of Massachusetts has been induced by the knowledge that at the time of the adoption of the Federal Constitution in 1789 she was the only State of the thirteen without slaves. By an official census taken in 1754 she possessed 4,896, one-half of whom were over 16 years of age, and their owners were not permitted to manumit them without giving security that they should not become a burden upon the parish; the greater portion were, however, sent to other colonies, and the advertisements in the Boston newspapers of that date prove that the young negroes were given away during infancy to the neighbouring colonies who would take them as slaves, so that the labour of the mothers might not be lost

I hope this helps. ;)
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Things they will call evils;
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2008, 02:36:11 AM »
About 4 blocks from where I am sitting at this time there is a reminder of Abe Lincoln and the Indians. It is a memorial to the 32 Dakota he signed the order to hang. It is a buffalo that is on the sight of the hangings. It is located in Mankato MN on Riverfront drive along the Minnesota river.



Lincoln only allowed the execution of those deemed to have committed the worts atrocities of the "Great Sioux Uprising". (between 500 and 800 white settlers had been murdered in the uprising.) Lincoln complained of blood on his hands for having to authorize the hanging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

"In early December, 303 Sioux prisoners were convicted of murder and rape by military tribunals and sentenced to death. Some trials lasted less than 5 minutes, and the proceedings neither were explained to the defendants, nor were the Sioux represented in court. President Abraham Lincoln personally reviewed the trial records, and he attempted to distinguish between those who had engaged in warfare against the United States versus those who had committed the crimes of rape and murder against civilians."

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2008, 02:46:17 AM »
The REAL issue was not slavery, although slavery was an issue. Lincoln hid the real issues BEHIND SLAVERY, as it was a more noble cause than stealing textile production from southern producers.

That simply is not true. Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform.

http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/repplat6.htm

The southern states blatantly stated that they were succeeding in order to preserve slavery.

South Carolina was the first state to sucede. In its Declaration of Cause for Secession, it complained of the election of an anti-slavery Republican President:

"On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States."


http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#South%20Carolina
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2008, 07:16:25 AM »
ironfoot are you not going to answer my post about the illegal steps Lincoln took in his first 120 days in office? All this after after being sworn in to "PROTECT and DEFEND" the same Constitution he swept under the rug.

That is, after all, what this thread is about "honest Abe" not about slavery as you keep wanting to return it to.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2008, 12:12:59 PM »
ironfoot are you not going to answer my post about the illegal steps Lincoln took in his first 120 days in office? All this after after being sworn in to "PROTECT and DEFEND" the same Constitution he swept under the rug.

That is, after all, what this thread is about "honest Abe" not about slavery as you keep wanting to return it to.

Your first post started with the topic of a tariff, so read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff

The Morrill Tariff of 1861 was a protective tariff bill passed by the U.S. Congress in early 1861. The act is informally named after its sponsor, Rep. Justin Morrill of Vermont, who designed the bill around recommendations by Pennsylvania economist Henry C. Carey. It was signed into law by Democratic president, James Buchanan of Pennsylvania, where support for higher tariffs to protect the iron industry was strong. It replaced the Tariff of 1857. Some historians such as Beard and Beard (1928) argued there was a divergence in economic interests between an industrializing Northeast and a plantation South before the American Civil War. But Beard did not identify the tariff as a major issue that divided North and South. Two additional tariffs sponsored by Rep. Morrill, each one higher, were passed during Lincoln's administration to raise urgently needed revenue for war.


Your first post had a link to supposed quotes from Lincoln, but without source references. The first quote was allegedly from an 1832 campaign speech. It said:

"My politics are short and sweet, like the old woman's dance. I am in favor of a national bank ... in favor of the internal improvements system and a high protective tariff." ~ Lincoln, Campaign Speech, 1832.

That quote makes no sense for a politician running for state legislature. The quote deals with national issues. I doubt the veracity of the quote.
Read here what were Lincoln's primary concerns in that election for state legislature:

"Lincoln began his political career in 1832, at age 23, with an unsuccessful campaign for the Illinois General Assembly, as a member of the Whig Party. The centerpiece of his platform was the undertaking of navigational improvements on the Sangamon River. He believed that this would attract steamboat traffic, which would allow the sparsely populated, poorer areas along the river to flourish"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2008, 03:21:50 PM »
ironfoot are you not going to answer my post about the illegal steps Lincoln took in his first 120 days in office? All this after after being sworn in to "PROTECT and DEFEND" the same Constitution he swept under the rug.

That is, after all, what this thread is about "honest Abe" not about slavery as you keep wanting to return it to.

Your first post started with the topic of a tariff, so read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff

The Morrill Tariff of 1861 was a protective tariff bill passed by the U.S. Congress in early 1861. The act is informally named after its sponsor, Rep. Justin Morrill of Vermont, who designed the bill around recommendations by Pennsylvania economist Henry C. Carey. It was signed into law by Democratic president, James Buchanan of Pennsylvania, where support for higher tariffs to protect the iron industry was strong. It replaced the Tariff of 1857. Some historians such as Beard and Beard (1928) argued there was a divergence in economic interests between an industrializing Northeast and a plantation South before the American Civil War. But Beard did not identify the tariff as a major issue that divided North and South. Two additional tariffs sponsored by Rep. Morrill, each one higher, were passed during Lincoln's administration to raise urgently needed revenue for war.


Your first post had a link to supposed quotes from Lincoln, but without source references. The first quote was allegedly from an 1832 campaign speech. It said:

"My politics are short and sweet, like the old woman's dance. I am in favor of a national bank ... in favor of the internal improvements system and a high protective tariff." ~ Lincoln, Campaign Speech, 1832.

That quote makes no sense for a politician running for state legislature. The quote deals with national issues. I doubt the veracity of the quote.

Read here what were Lincoln's primary concerns in that election for state legislature:

"Lincoln began his political career in 1832, at age 23, with an unsuccessful campaign for the Illinois General Assembly, as a member of the Whig Party. The centerpiece of his platform was the undertaking of navigational improvements on the Sangamon River. He believed that this would attract steamboat traffic, which would allow the sparsely populated, poorer areas along the river to flourish"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln


I hate to point this out but source references are at the bottom of the page; in blue. ;)

Well there you are when does any politician ever make sense about anything. Besides I'm not here to try and figure out what/how Lincoln was thinking, I'll leave that to your Prof. Jaffa, he's the philosophy expert (?), My concern is with his illegal acts not what was going on in his head.

And last but not least Lew Rockwell starts off by talking about the tariff; I didn't tell him how to write his piece or where to start.  Obviously he feels, as I do, that the Morrill tariff is important; where as you, obviously, don't.The Tariff is still the tariff and it was brought about by the Republican platform on which Lincoln was elected President. Lincoln said he was for it and would make sure it would become law if it wasn't signed by the presiding President. What would you have JB do, veto it, only to have the next man make him look the fool? All Politicians have their price, they can all be bought and paid for.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2008, 04:35:20 PM »
I hate to point this out, but source referances state the publication, publication information, and page number of the quote. The "referances" in blue simply listed several publications.

The south seceded before Lincoln was even inaugurated, so the south did not secede becuase of any tariff signed into law by Lincoln.
The declaration of causes for secession passed by the seceding states dwell extensively on the issue of slavery, not tariffs.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2008, 08:44:56 PM »
I hate to point this out, but source referances state the publication, publication information, and page number of the quote. The "referances" in blue simply listed several publications.

The south seceded before Lincoln was even inaugurated, so the south did not secede becuase of any tariff signed into law by Lincoln.
The declaration of causes for secession passed by the seceding states dwell extensively on the issue of slavery, not tariffs.

It's not for me to prove I'm right, the sources are there, you may use them as you will or not. If I'm wrong prove it. I never said Lincoln signed it but once and you proved me wrong and I agreed that you were right. On the other hand your post of yesterday plainly stated that "Lincoln the Man" was only in print once and little read but I proved that you were wrong and you've not come back and corrected yourself. Don't I get the same courtesy? JB signed it but it was on the pub platform that Lincoln was elected on and he also increased it twice while in office. Six of the southern states seceded before Lincoln took over but after he was elected so what is your point? That is only half, by my count, and Maryland's legally elected government was thrown in a military stockade before it could vote and all of this went on after he took office.

You still haven't explained the illegal acts, why not?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline PaulS

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2008, 08:50:43 PM »
Lincoln was the first president to circumvent the constitution. He declared war without the super majority required congressional vote.
The ammendments following the war were never lawfully ratified because the southern states were not allowed to vote.
Lincoln may be a hero to some but to me, he started the decline of the United States and the foundation of America.
The U.S. has never recovered from that first act of treason against the constitution.
The individual States do have the right to secede. The tenth ammendment says that all powers not granted to the federal government are left to the states and their people. Nowhere in the constitution is the government granted the power to control the states - quite the contrary - the states are supposed to control the federal government.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2008, 01:24:10 AM »
Lincoln was the first president to circumvent the constitution. He declared war without the super majority required congressional vote.
The ammendments following the war were never lawfully ratified because the southern states were not allowed to vote.
Lincoln may be a hero to some but to me, he started the decline of the United States and the foundation of America.
The U.S. has never recovered from that first act of treason against the constitution.
The individual States do have the right to secede. The tenth ammendment says that all powers not granted to the federal government are left to the states and their people. Nowhere in the constitution is the government granted the power to control the states - quite the contrary - the states are supposed to control the federal government.

Thank you PaulS I couldn't agree more. :)
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2008, 04:05:03 AM »
I couldn't agree more. :)

Me either!   ;D
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2008, 04:11:16 PM »
About 4 blocks from where I am sitting at this time there is a reminder of Abe Lincoln and the Indians. It is a memorial to the 32 Dakota he signed the order to hang. It is a buffalo that is on the sight of the hangings. It is located in Mankato MN on Riverfront drive along the Minnesota river.

http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/Library/newsletter.asp?ID=50&CRLI=130

As the President reported in his annual message to Congress that December: “In the month of August last the Sioux Indians, in Minnesota, attacked the settlements in their vicinity with extreme ferocity, killing, indiscriminately, men, women, and children. this attack was wholly unexpected, and, therefore, no means of defense had been provided. It is estimated that not less than eight hundred persons were killed by the Indians, and a large amount of property was destroyed.

Generals Pope and Sibley conducted mass trials for Indians accused of atrocities and sentenced 303 to death. Two days after the trials ended, on November 10, the President sent a telegram to Pope: “Your despatch giving the names of three-hundred Indians condemned to death, is received. Please forward, as soon as possible, the full and complete record of these convictions. And if the record does not fully indicate the more guilty and influential, of the culprits, please have a carefully statement made on these points and forwarded to me. Send all by mail”30 The military and civilian authorities combined to demand an immediate execution of the supposed perpetrators and to exert considerable pressure during November. The forces against execution were much less numerous or powerful but they did include Commissioner of Indian Affairs Dole. “Nothing but the Speedy execution of the tried and convicted Sioux Indians will save us from Scenes of outrage,” wrote Governor Ramsey to Lincoln.

On December 6, President Lincoln ordered the hanging of 39 Indians on December 19. In his annual message to Congress, President Lincoln wrote: “The State of Minnesota has suffered great injury from this Indian war. A large portion of her territory has been depopulated, and a severe loss has been sustained by the destruction of property.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2008, 04:18:32 PM »
  Excuse me I mistyped 32 when it was 38 Dakota. Old Honest Abe allowed the greatest mass hanging in AMERICAN History. Now myself I really don't care what happened back then and am really really glad every thing and every one that happened back then happened exactly as it did. If u change the past you change the future and I'd say most of us wouldn't exist if things went differently.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2008, 06:46:52 PM »
What would you have done if you were Lincoln? The people of Minnesota wanted to hang over 300 Indians. Lincoln reduced the number to 39, based upon trial records that those Indinas had committed murder and rape. Would you have let them go?
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Offline PaulS

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2008, 09:51:09 PM »
Well, let's see:
The people calling for the hangings wrongfully invaded Indian territories.
They murdered indians.
then they object to the indians defending themselves.
I think I would have prosecuted the invaders - not the indians.
But then, I don't care to be president if it means supporting genicide.
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Offline Dee

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2008, 10:10:01 AM »
Well, let's see:
The people calling for the hangings wrongfully invaded Indian territories.
They murdered indians.
then they object to the indians defending themselves.
I think I would have prosecuted the invaders - not the indians.
But then, I don't care to be president if it means supporting genicide.

PaulS, being a Cherokee, (dad was a full blood) you might imagine where I am on this issure. You have driven the proverbial nail home.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2008, 06:57:35 PM »
22 August 4, 2008 CountyNews •


BY BEVERLY SCHLOTTERBECK
EXECUTIVE EDITOR
If you can relax in the middle of
chaos, listen to — indeed invite —
different points of view and share
credit for your successes, you are
on your way to exhibiting the same
leadership qualities as Abraham
Lincoln, said noted presidential
historian, NBC commentator and
baseball fan extraordinaire Doris
Kearns Goodwin.
Goodwin, author of the bestselling
biography, Team of Rivals:
The Political Genius of Abraham
Lincoln, shared her 10-years-inthe-
making knowledge of Lincoln
with conference attendees at the
closing general session.
She said Lincoln, throughout
his long political career, never
made a permanent enemy. By
way of contrast, each of his rivals
for the presidential nomination
of 1860 “had made enemies.”
Lincoln, like another master
politician, President Lyndon
Johnson — Goodwin’s old boss
earlier in her life — believed in
keeping his enemies in the tent,
not outside.
“The country is in a dangerous
place and I need the help of
the best and smartest men in the
country,” Lincoln told a critic of
his Cabinet picks — all former
rivals — Goodwin related.
Lincoln, like LBJ, too, was an
inveterate storyteller, Goodwin
said, often lacing his stories with
rough-humored jokes. In fact,
story and joke telling won Lincoln
his earliest support and became his
main way of relaxing.
After reviewing more details of
Lincoln’s life, Kearns outlined the
10 leadership qualities that marked
Lincoln’s presidency — ones, she
added, “we should be looking for
in our candidates for president
this year.”
1. Capacity to listen to
different points of view
Although Lincoln encouraged
his Cabinet members to
fully express their views without
fear of retaliation, he also knew,
Goodwin said, when to stop the
discussion and make his decision
because he realized, she said,
“that a search for consensus could
be paralyzing.”
2. Ability to learn on the job
Lincoln could acknowledge
and learn from his mistakes. He
encouraged a similar culture of
learning in his administration,
Goodwin explained.
3. Willingness to share credit
for success
Throughout his career, Lincoln
readily shared credit with everyone
involved in a successful venture.
4. Willingness to shoulder
blame for subordinates
One of the most telling examples
of this characteristic involved
a scandal in the War Department
in which his secretary of war was
accused of corruption in awarding
supply contracts. Lincoln came to
his defense, saying that he and all
members of the Cabinet shared
the blame.
Restore the
Partnership
Restore the
Partnership
A Campaign to Reestablish the
Federal - County Partnership
Learn more by visiting www.naco.org
For decades, county and federal governments have worked
together to answer the challenges facing the nation, but in
recent years that partnership has diminished.
To foster better coordination, NACo has launched a
campaign to “Restore the Partnership” between the Federal
government and America’s counties.
Goodwin shares lessons-learned from the nation’s 16th president
5. Awareness of his
weaknesses
Lincoln, Goodwin said, often
accused himself of being too
soft on people, giving them more
chances than they deserved. But,
knowing of this weakness, he
devised ways to offset its consequences.
6. Ability to channel his
emotions in a positive way
Lincoln was no saint. He
could get angry and frustrated.
However, he rarely let his angry
feelings show. Instead he would
often express them in a letter,
which he would put aside and
never send. And if his anger
did show, he would attempt to
mitigate its impact by a kind
word or let the individual know
that he did not harbor ill feelings
against him.
7. Understanding how to relax
and replenish his energies
He went to the theatre more
than 100 times even as the Civil
War raged. He relaxed with good
stories and good humor at the
homes of his Cabinet members,
and encouraged fun and relaxation
in his administration — all
ways of coping with the nearoverwhelming
stress of the Civil
War, Goodwin said.
8. At crisis moments, his
instinct was to go to the fi eld.
(“In your case,” Goodwin said,
“out with the people.”)
Lincoln visited Civil War battlefi
elds to encourage the troops, visit
the wounded and manage the war.
His forays onto active battlefi elds
boosted his troops’ morale and
cemented their loyalty to him.
9. Courage of his convictions
Lincoln was under intense pressure
from members of his party
and his Cabinet to forego issuing
the Emancipation Proclamation.
They claimed the so-called Border
States would bolt the Union if
slaves were freed, and the government
would lose the war. Lincoln,
however, held fi rm.
10. Ability to communicate his
message
Lincoln used his storytelling
talent to get across his vision to his
countrymen. He made concepts
simple and most importantly,
understood the concerns of the
citizens.
Goodwin ended her speech by
quoting the 19th century Russian
novelist, Leo Tolstoy, who revered
Lincoln. Tolstoy wrote of Lincoln,
“He was bigger than his country
— bigger than all the Presidents

http://www.naco.org/CountyNewsTemplate.cfm?template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=28235
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2008, 07:03:37 PM »
Well, let's see:
The people calling for the hangings wrongfully invaded Indian territories.
They murdered indians.
then they object to the indians defending themselves.
I think I would have prosecuted the invaders - not the indians.
But then, I don't care to be president if it means supporting genicide.



So why don't you help redress this wrong?
You can give all of your property to the Indians and move back to Europe.
After all, by living in Minnesota you are still occupying wrongfully invaded land, and benefiting from that invasion aren't you?

You may have a difficult time deciding which Indian tribe to compensate, the Sioux (Dakota) who signed the treaty at Traverse Des Sioux which ceded most of southern Minnestoa to the American government before Lincoln was President, 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Traverse_des_Sioux

or the Cheyenne who were driven out of Minnesota by the Sioux.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne

What state didn't experience Europeans "invading" Indian lands?
The Confederacy occupied Indian lands.
So why do you blame Lincoln for "Manifest Destiny"?

What evidence do you have that the settlers in Minnesota "murdered Indians", thereby inviting retribution in the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862?
Many of the settlers murdered by the Indians had befriended and fed Indians, and were repaid by being slaughtered.
There were also many Sioux who went to heroic effort to protect white settlers during the uprising.
The Indians had a legitimate beef with the federal government for being late with treaty payments, and Lincoln distinguished between the Indians fighting a war, and Indians who simply committed rape and murder. Read Over the Earth I Come and you will  better understand the Great Sioux Uprising.

http://www.amazon.com/Over-Earth-Come-Great-Uprising/dp/0312093608?tag=dogpile-20

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2008, 12:22:51 AM »
22 August 4, 2008 CountyNews •


BY BEVERLY SCHLOTTERBECK
EXECUTIVE EDITOR
If you can relax in the middle of
chaos, listen to — indeed invite —
different points of view and share
credit for your successes, you are
on your way to exhibiting the same
leadership qualities as Abraham
Lincoln, said noted presidential
historian, NBC commentator and
baseball fan extraordinaire Doris
Kearns Goodwin.
Goodwin, author of the bestselling
biography, Team of Rivals:
The Political Genius of Abraham
Lincoln, shared her 10-years-inthe-
making knowledge of Lincoln
with conference attendees at the
closing general session.
She said Lincoln, throughout
his long political career, never
made a permanent enemy. By
way of contrast, each of his rivals
for the presidential nomination
of 1860 “had made enemies.”
Lincoln, like another master
politician, President Lyndon
Johnson — Goodwin’s old boss
earlier in her life — believed in
keeping his enemies in the tent,
not outside.
“The country is in a dangerous
place and I need the help of
the best and smartest men in the
country,” Lincoln told a critic of
his Cabinet picks — all former
rivals — Goodwin related.
Lincoln, like LBJ, too, was an
inveterate storyteller, Goodwin
said, often lacing his stories with
rough-humored jokes. In fact,
story and joke telling won Lincoln
his earliest support and became his
main way of relaxing.
After reviewing more details of
Lincoln’s life, Kearns outlined the
10 leadership qualities that marked
Lincoln’s presidency — ones, she
added, “we should be looking for
in our candidates for president
this year.”
1. Capacity to listen to
different points of view
Although Lincoln encouraged
his Cabinet members to
fully express their views without
fear of retaliation, he also knew,
Goodwin said, when to stop the
discussion and make his decision
because he realized, she said,
“that a search for consensus could
be paralyzing.”
2. Ability to learn on the job
Lincoln could acknowledge
and learn from his mistakes. He
encouraged a similar culture of
learning in his administration,
Goodwin explained.
3. Willingness to share credit
for success
Throughout his career, Lincoln
readily shared credit with everyone
involved in a successful venture.
4. Willingness to shoulder
blame for subordinates
One of the most telling examples
of this characteristic involved
a scandal in the War Department
in which his secretary of war was
accused of corruption in awarding
supply contracts. Lincoln came to
his defense, saying that he and all
members of the Cabinet shared
the blame.
Restore the
Partnership
Restore the
Partnership
A Campaign to Reestablish the
Federal - County Partnership
Learn more by visiting www.naco.org
For decades, county and federal governments have worked
together to answer the challenges facing the nation, but in
recent years that partnership has diminished.
To foster better coordination, NACo has launched a
campaign to “Restore the Partnership” between the Federal
government and America’s counties.
Goodwin shares lessons-learned from the nation’s 16th president
5. Awareness of his
weaknesses
Lincoln, Goodwin said, often
accused himself of being too
soft on people, giving them more
chances than they deserved. But,
knowing of this weakness, he
devised ways to offset its consequences.
6. Ability to channel his
emotions in a positive way
Lincoln was no saint. He
could get angry and frustrated.
However, he rarely let his angry
feelings show. Instead he would
often express them in a letter,
which he would put aside and
never send. And if his anger
did show, he would attempt to
mitigate its impact by a kind
word or let the individual know
that he did not harbor ill feelings
against him.
7. Understanding how to relax
and replenish his energies
He went to the theatre more
than 100 times even as the Civil
War raged. He relaxed with good
stories and good humor at the
homes of his Cabinet members,
and encouraged fun and relaxation
in his administration — all
ways of coping with the nearoverwhelming
stress of the Civil
War, Goodwin said.
8. At crisis moments, his
instinct was to go to the fi eld.
(“In your case,” Goodwin said,
“out with the people.”)
Lincoln visited Civil War battlefi
elds to encourage the troops, visit
the wounded and manage the war.
His forays onto active battlefi elds
boosted his troops’ morale and
cemented their loyalty to him.
9. Courage of his convictions
Lincoln was under intense pressure
from members of his party
and his Cabinet to forego issuing
the Emancipation Proclamation.
They claimed the so-called Border
States would bolt the Union if
slaves were freed, and the government
would lose the war. Lincoln,
however, held fi rm.
10. Ability to communicate his
message
Lincoln used his storytelling
talent to get across his vision to his
countrymen. He made concepts
simple and most importantly,
understood the concerns of the
citizens.
Goodwin ended her speech by
quoting the 19th century Russian
novelist, Leo Tolstoy, who revered
Lincoln. Tolstoy wrote of Lincoln,
“He was bigger than his country
— bigger than all the Presidents

http://www.naco.org/CountyNewsTemplate.cfm?template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=28235


So what exactly is your point here? Lincoln knew how to relax and knew how to tell dirty jokes. One thing she did do was point out that Abe was loved by the Reds. They did indeed claim him as their own. In point of fact Marx and Lincoln corresponded several times while Marx was in England.

Or is it an indorcement for Mr. Obama?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2008, 01:00:27 AM »
Tolstoy wasn't a red, he was a Christian pacifist from an aristocratic family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy

Presidents correspond with lots of people, some that they agree with, and some that they disagree with; some that they want to influence, and some that they want to learn from.
They also correspond with newspaper reporters.
(Marx worked as correspondent for the New York Tribune in 1851.)
What did Lincoln say in his corrwspondence with Marx?
Did Lincoln thank Marx for the fact that Marx championed the Uinion cause in the Rebellion to Preserve Slavery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline PaulS

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2008, 05:39:16 AM »
So why don't you help redress this wrong?
You can give all of your property to the Indians and move back to Europe.
After all, by living in Minnesota you are still occupying wrongfully invaded land, and benefiting from that invasion aren't you?

You may have a difficult time deciding which Indian tribe to compensate, the Sioux (Dakota) who signed the treaty at Traverse Des Sioux which ceded most of southern Minnestoa to the American government before Lincoln was President, or the Cheyenne who were driven out of Minnesota by the Sioux.

What state didn't experience Europeans "invading" Indian lands?
The Confederacy occupied Indian lands.
So why do you blame Lincoln for "Manifest Destiny"?

What evidence do you have that the settlers in Minnesota "murdered Indians", thereby inviting retribution in the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862?
Many of the settlers murdered by the Indians had befriended and fed Indians, and were repaid by being slaughtered.
The Indians had a legitimate beef with the federal government for being late with treaty payments, and Lincoln distinguished between the Indians fighting a war, and Indians who simply committed rape and murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Traverse_des_Sioux

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne

I believe the wrong should be redressed, at least in some way. Providing water and the possibility of industry of some kind to provide jobs.
I don't live in Minnesota, I live in Washington, and the natives of this area are nearly gone. There are a few mixed nation natives left that the federal government refuses to recognize.
Recognition would be another good step. What makes you think I am of European desent?
I don't blame Lincoln for manifest destiny. I only blame lincon for the decisions that he made wrongly. I can also give him credit where it is due.
Even here in Washington history is rich with the broken treaties and mistreatment of the natives. Everything from poisoning food to wiping out the local foods that the natives used, to stripping them of their language and customs. Natives here do have things a bit easier now than in the past. Legislation has been passed to promote business on reservations, to comply with treaties, and to preserve the rich heritage that was so hated in decades past. There is much that needs to be done but it is happening, albeit slowly.

PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2008, 09:14:21 AM »
So why don't you help redress this wrong?
You can give all of your property to the Indians and move back to Europe.
After all, by living in Minnesota you are still occupying wrongfully invaded land, and benefiting from that invasion aren't you?

You may have a difficult time deciding which Indian tribe to compensate, the Sioux (Dakota) who signed the treaty at Traverse Des Sioux which ceded most of southern Minnestoa to the American government before Lincoln was President, or the Cheyenne who were driven out of Minnesota by the Sioux.

What state didn't experience Europeans "invading" Indian lands?
The Confederacy occupied Indian lands.
So why do you blame Lincoln for "Manifest Destiny"?

What evidence do you have that the settlers in Minnesota "murdered Indians", thereby inviting retribution in the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862?
Many of the settlers murdered by the Indians had befriended and fed Indians, and were repaid by being slaughtered.
Other Siuoux acted heroically and saved many settlers from Idian attack.
The Indians had a legitimate beef with the federal government for being late with treaty payments, and Lincoln distinguished between the Indians fighting a war, and Indians who simply committed rape and murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Traverse_des_Sioux

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne

I believe the wrong should be redressed, at least in some way. Providing water and the possibility of industry of some kind to provide jobs.
I don't live in Minnesota, I live in Washington, and the natives of this area are nearly gone. There are a few mixed nation natives left that the federal government refuses to recognize.
Recognition would be another good step. What makes you think I am of European desent?
I don't blame Lincoln for manifest destiny. I only blame lincon for the decisions that he made wrongly. I can also give him credit where it is due.
Even here in Washington history is rich with the broken treaties and mistreatment of the natives. Everything from poisoning food to wiping out the local foods that the natives used, to stripping them of their language and customs. Natives here do have things a bit easier now than in the past. Legislation has been passed to promote business on reservations, to comply with treaties, and to preserve the rich heritage that was so hated in decades past. There is much that needs to be done but it is happening, albeit slowly.



I got you confused with billy 56081 who started the topic about the hanging of the Sioux. Billy had said:
"About 4 blocks from where I am sitting at this time there is a reminder of Abe Lincoln and the Indians. It is a memorial to the 32 Dakota he signed the order to hang. It is a buffalo that is on the sight of the hangings. It is located in Mankato MN on Riverfront drive along the Minnesota river."
I responded to him, and when you responded to me I thought I was discussing the Indian issue with billy.

Many of the Minnesota settlers may have agreed with you that the Indians should be compensated, and the Traverse Des Sioux treay had specified that the Indians should be compensated. But if you are not willing to give up your home now so that Indians can reclaim it, why would you expect settlers of Euorpean decent in the 1860s would be willing to give up their homes in Minnesota?
The 800 settlers who were murdered had not taken Indian lands by force, they got them after the Sioux ceded the land in the Traverse Des Sioux treaty. The murder of those settlers could not be ignored, and the murderers were executed, as was a common fate for murderers in that day. Lincoln could not have just let them go. If he had, there would have been a revolt in Minnesota.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2008, 01:31:47 AM »
Tolstoy wasn't a red, he was a Christian pacifist from an aristocratic family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy

Presidents correspond with lots of people, some that they agree with, and some that they disagree with; some that they want to influence, and some that they want to learn from.
They also correspond with newspaper reporters.
(Marx worked as correspondent for the New York Tribune in 1851.)
What did Lincoln say in his corrwspondence with Marx?
Did Lincoln thank Marx for the fact that Marx championed the Uinion cause in the Rebellion to Preserve Slavery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

Excuse me, Please show where I said Tolstoy was a Red? See there you go again.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2008, 01:50:24 AM »
Tolstoy wasn't a red, he was a Christian pacifist from an aristocratic family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy

Presidents correspond with lots of people, some that they agree with, and some that they disagree with; some that they want to influence, and some that they want to learn from.
They also correspond with newspaper reporters.
(Marx worked as correspondent for the New York Tribune in 1851.)
What did Lincoln say in his corrwspondence with Marx?
Did Lincoln thank Marx for the fact that Marx championed the Uinion cause in the Rebellion to Preserve Slavery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

Carl Marx:

http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Karl_Marx


Karl Marx was greatly admired by former United States President Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln did not agree with Marx's belief in violent revolution, however, and steered the Socialist Party of the United States towards change through the ballot, rather than the bullet.

 
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2008, 02:48:01 PM »
Goodwin's article ended with a quote from Tolstoy praising Lincoln.
The next post was from you saying Abe was loved by the Reds
You didn't say what "red" you were referring to, and it sounded like you were disparaging Tolstoy, and calling Tolstoy a "red".

Anyway, your hero appears to be Robert E. Lee, and this is what Lee said about Lincoln:

When Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox, he claimed that he surrendered to Lincoln’s goodness as much as to Grant’s army.

http://filmimpact.blogspot.com/2007/02/this-norman-rockwell-painting-lincoln.html
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Dee

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2008, 03:02:32 AM »
When Lee is surrendering to a government which he defied, and to an army to which Lee consistently kicked their butts on the battlefield, would Lee NOT be prone to speak kindly of his captors?
It would certainly make more sense to do so, than call the president and his army a bunch of Marxist invaders, if Lee wanted humane treatment for his troops and himself. It would not have been prudent to anger a drunk, after handing him your pistol.
To read anything else into it, one would definitely have to stretch it, as the fact of the matter IS, that Robert E. Lee CHOSE to fight for the South and it's cause. His feelings then, should be quite obvious. Shouldn't they? Spitting in the enemies eye upon surrender looks very well on cinema but, is perilous in reality.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2008, 01:26:28 PM »
There are many, on both sides, that took action based on state loyalty rather than political ideology--such was Lee as such was Rommel.
As far as kicking butt, Lee had the better of it early because he was in a defensive mode which is easier than taking the offence. When Lee ventured out on the offence he was soundly and finally defeated.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2008, 11:33:33 PM »
There are many, on both sides, that took action based on state loyalty rather than political ideology--such was Lee as such was Rommel.
As far as kicking butt, Lee had the better of it early because he was in a defensive mode which is easier than taking the offence. When Lee ventured out on the offence he was soundly and finally defeated.
Blessings

If, by that, you are saying Gettysburg then you just might want to look up the casualty figures as the battle was much more than Pickets Charge; though most believe otherwise.
And the same to you
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2008, 11:47:42 PM »
Goodwin's article ended with a quote from Tolstoy praising Lincoln.
The next post was from you saying Abe was loved by the Reds
You didn't say what "red" you were referring to, and it sounded like you were disparaging Tolstoy, and calling Tolstoy a "red".

Anyway, your hero appears to be Robert E. Lee, and this is what Lee said about Lincoln:

When Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox, he claimed that he surrendered to Lincoln’s goodness as much as to Grant’s army.

http://filmimpact.blogspot.com/2007/02/this-norman-rockwell-painting-lincoln.html

See I knew it; you don't read my post all the way thru as I plainly refer to Marx and said nothing about Tolstoy one way or the other. I equate Russia with Red and knew of Lincoln and Marx writing to eachother. Your post gave me the opening to talk about another of Lincoln's traits. I don't deal in "disparaging" anyone I'm only interested in Historical Facts! Make of them what you will, I do.

Yes I do think of Robert E. Lee as a great man. To me he is a Man of Duty and Honor, two of the highest qualities, I hold best in a man.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: The true Abe Lincoln
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2008, 06:55:29 AM »

 
Illinois to mark 150th anniversary of Lincoln-Douglas debates with reenactments, parades
By JOHN O'CONNOR , Associated Press

August 18, 2008

FREEPORT, Ill. - This is the "Pretzel City," thanks to German bakers who settled here in the 1850s. It's appropriate, given the way a lightweight named Abraham Lincoln twisted up a political colossus here and began cementing his place in American myth.

Lincoln, a longshot candidate for U.S. Senate, debated Stephen A. Douglas on the edge of the rolling northwestern Illinois hills 150 years ago this month, halting the Little Giant's march to the White House and opening its door for the Railsplitter from Springfield.

The "Freeport Doctrine" that Douglas espoused on Aug. 27, 1858 — that states and territories could ban slavery despite a Supreme Court ruling suggesting otherwise — was not a new idea with Douglas, who beat Lincoln and returned to Congress.

But Lincoln forced Douglas to record it for a national audience, solidifying slaveholders' opposition and splitting the Democrats. Add Lincoln's stellar and unexpected performance in seven matchups across Illinois that fall, and influential eastern Republicans were convinced that Lincoln should be their man for president in 1860.

Now, as another U.S. senator from Illinois admired for his oratorical polish — Barack Obama — shoots for the presidency, Illinois is marking Lincoln's rise to the national stage with a sesquicentennial commemoration of the David-and-Goliath showdowns. The festivities will take Lincoln and Douglas re-enactors to each debate site starting this month, with storytellers, parades, and dancing at period balls.

The debates played a role in "determining who we are as a people today," said Edward Finch, a retired Freeport schoolteacher and chairman of "Reunion Tour '08," the statewide celebration.

Freeport certainly has never forgotten. The flavor that topped a local ice-cream parlor's contest for a commemorative confection? "Lickin' Douglas."

Slavery was the focus of the debates at Ottawa, Freeport, Jonesboro, Charleston, Galesburg, Quincy and Alton. But underlying that incendiary theme was the ultimate question of democracy's purpose — whether it's about majority rule or right and wrong, said Allen Guelzo of Gettysburg College, author of "Lincoln and Douglas: The Debates that Defined America."

"Americans regard democracy as something more transcendent, something more sacred than just counting noses," Guelzo said. "Americans at base want to know that their politics is about what is right. And if a majority wants to do what is wrong, people just don't roll over."

Douglas wanted to push permission for slavery out of Congress and let states decide. To Lincoln, slavery itself was the issue. Blacks were people, not property.

Lincoln wasn't alone in that belief, but it was radical to give it a national voice.

"Just that very basic principle of recognizing the humanity of blacks was huge," Illinois state historian Thomas Schwartz said.

Douglas was legendary for helping fashion the last territorial compromise between slave and free states in 1850, seizing on the idea that voters should decide on slavery.

He thought "popular sovereignty" was his White House ticket, and 1854 legislation he ushered into law applied it to the vast, unsettled West. To the horror of anti-slavery northerners, it nullified a 30-year-old deal that kept slavery south of the Mason-Dixon line.

It also brought Lincoln out of political retirement. By 1858, he was the fledgling Illinois Republicans' best hope against Douglas.

The underfunded Lincoln began tailing Douglas, letting the celebrity draw crowds that he addressed a day later. Douglas finally agreed to joint appearances in the seven congressional districts where the two hadn't already given major speeches.

The Little Giant, so called because he stood just 5-foot-4, knew he'd have his hands full with Lincoln. With news reporters making verbatim transcripts, ensuring wide publication, Douglas started strong at Ottawa.

But Honest Abe recovered, refining his moral arguments in later debates until at Alton, Douglas had no real response, said Rodney Davis, co-director of the Lincoln Studies Center at Knox College, site of the fifth debate.

Douglas had no qualms about playing to white supremacists' fears, using the N-word liberally.

Lincoln wasn't blameless on the subject. Pressured to respond to the race-baiting, at Charleston he dismissed the idea that blacks should have civil rights. He said a "physical difference" between the races precluded their living in equality with whites.

But as president, Lincoln set the stage for constitutional changes that ended slavery and eventually offered blacks civil rights.

And nearly 150 years later, a black man would announce his run for presidency in Springfield on the steps of the Capitol where Lincoln once served. Obama's nomination is "breathtakingly stupendous," Guelzo said, considering the slow pace of worldwide change in race relations over the centuries.

Lincoln lost to Douglas when Democrats won control of the General Assembly, which chose U.S. senators in the 19th Century. But the debates put Lincoln in contention for the Republican presidential nomination two years later. Douglas was waiting.

"When they would face off in 1860," said Schwartz, "they had already had the dress rehearsal."

___



http://www.startribune.com:80/templates/Print_This_Story?sid=27088294
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.