Author Topic: Maybe a little OT but about Lathes (Read 2944 times)

handirifle · « **on:** November 17, 2007, 12:54:14 PM »

I'm thinking seriously about getting a hobby lathe for my personal gun projects. I'm not considering anything heavy duty or super expensive, in fact, I'm looking in the $-500 range. I know that is limiting, but these are not heavy duty projects. One example is since CA will have lead bullets outlawed in June of '08, it will effectively shelf my Win 94 BB 375, since there are no suitable bullets made for it in non-lead.

One answer is to get some Barnes TSX's for the 375 H&H, that are sprire point, HP (barely) and cut them flat faced and center bore them to HP suitable to open and function in the 375 Win. I've done all of the above, except making it a hollow point, to the Hornady 270gr spirepoint with good results, so I see no reason it won't work on the TSX.

I've been eyeing a couple at Harbor Freight, but was wondering if you guys know something bad about them I SHOULD know, or if another brand is better for the price, or one with a better price.

This is one I'd been looking at, for $449.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93212

Am I on the right track? In case you hadn't guessed I know mostly nothing about this but it seems like fun to learn.

Also, what add ons would be the necessities?

Thanks in advance.

Keith L · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2007, 02:34:43 PM »

I haven't bought machine tools for years now, so what I know may be out of date. Here goes, and others can correct this if it is no longer right.

Most of the inexpensive machine tools are made in China, mainland or Taiwan. They are made to the specs of an importer such as Grizzly or Jet (or perhaps Harbor Freight). Tools may look identical, but function very differently because of things like sloppy bearings, loose tolerances, etc. I even recall lots of drill presses that were dirt cheap because the spindle bearings were used, and in many cases worn out right from the factory.

With that in mind I recommend you research the company that is importing the tools, and pick one with a constant presence in your community or at least in the country. Make sure that they have parts and service available, if you are not able to take care of that yourself. My training as a machinist and a machine repair person allowed me to save a tool that others may have had to scrap out. I made the mistake of buying it from one of those companies that set up a tent in the Mall parking lot and you never see them again.

To learn how to run that new lathe you may want to consider adult education classes at a local high school or tech college. There is a lot to learn, and it pays to know what you are doing. It makes things safer, and allows for better results.

I hope you find one that works well for you. They can be lots of fun.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2007, 02:59:54 PM »

Handi, you might consider used equipment like these listed on Craigslist in LA and Bakersfield.

Tim

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tls/474552712.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/tls/479324324.html

http://bakersfield.craigslist.org/tls/444837437.html

John Traveler · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2007, 05:24:32 PM »

KeithL and Quickdoo have given excellent advice.

The made-in-china home hobbyist machines as sold by Harbor Freight represent the bottom level of quality in machine tools imported from China. You may get lucky and get an accurate, well-fitted, affordable benchtop mini-lathe, or you may get a $500 headache that you will sell asap. From the examples I've seen, examined, and worked with, you will likely get the latter. A brand name such as Jet and Grizzley will give much comfort when it's time for replacement parts or service. The next higher grade are mini lathes made in Taiwan, eastern or western Europe, and of course the domestic Sherline and Taig.

Important considerations for your bullet modifying projects are: spindle accuracy, repeatability of cuts, headstock accepts 5C collets. Accessories will include a steady rest, follower rest, drill chuck, and full set of boring, turning, facing, cutoff, and knurling tools.

You may consider a larger benchtop or lathe on a cabinet stand for your intended use in gun hobbies. A bare-bones used 12x36 Atlas can be had for about $500, and it is much more lathe than the mini you are considering.

Spending more on a higher quality machine will give more satisfaction in it's use and help the learning curve. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to learn and develop good machining technique on inadequate tools. When it comes time to upgrade, your better quality machine is more saleable than the economy job.

HTH
John

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2007, 07:21:04 PM »

OK guys thanks for the advice, it might pay me to wait a bit, but boy do I hate waiting.

. I know it would be cheaper to buy the bullets and have a REAL machinist do it, but I'm a do it yourself guy.

OK back to research.

Quick, thanks for the links, I forgot about craigslist.

handirifle · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2007, 07:34:50 PM »

looking at the Grizzley site I see one similar size and price. Will keep looking.

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2007, 08:04:34 PM »

I just found what seems to be a very good article. Thanks for making me look farther. The HF unit gets a pretty good rating from this guy, but the size issues are worth considering.

tn_junk · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2007, 03:37:37 AM »

I worked in and around the Machinist trade for 30 years as a designer, engineer, etc. And I am planning on upgrading my home shop to add both a lathe and a milling machine next year. I WILL NOT be buying Chinese junk. I will find an older, probably pre- 1950, American made machine tool. They will cost just little more than the Chinese stuff and are so well built that your grandchildrens grandchildren can still be using it.
I would strongly suggest not buying something you will soon come to regret.

alan

handirifle · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2007, 06:00:08 AM »

I understand exactly what you're saying, but if I did everything like that, I'd own a Rolls Royce, not a Honda, shoot a $4000 custom rifle, or a $1500 Weatherby and not Savage's. The biggest issue, is this will be a hobby. Used about 3-4 times a year, so I really don't want to spend an arm and leg. for ANY brand.

I'll keep looking, but for what I want, It will have to be under $500, maybe lower.

trotterlg · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:42:47 AM »

I have an Atlas 618 that came with a bed extension, I use it to turn, thread and chamber barrels. If you can find a machine with a spindle hole large enough to pass the barrel through then you can get buy with a shorter lathe. Larry

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2007, 01:27:28 PM »

I got to thinking of my earlier post and wanted to make sure you guys didn't think I'm blowing off your advice, I'm not. I might have come off a bit rude, if it seems that way I aplollgize.

I just wanted to emphasize, this is a SMALL hobby idea, and I didn't want to really be "gunsmithing" in the truest sense with it. Not like I'm going to try and re-chamber a barrel, or even re-thread one.

I wouldn't have a clue how to start that and don't have the time to learn. I just need a bit more repeatability than I get from my Harbor freight mini cut off saw and the drill press. Those two get it done, but a lot more work to do it than a lathe would be. I think even the lower level lathes would be more accurate than my current setup.

Dusty Wheeler · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2007, 02:17:16 PM »

Handirifle-
I was in your spot a year ago...just wanted a small lathe for 'stuff'. I bought one of the Grizzly 9x19's and it seemed to be a better fit than the smaller machines. The motor burnt out, called Grizzly and I had a new one in a week. Regardless what size machine you choose, I HIGHLY recommend Grizzly customer service! My only thought for you is I wish I had held out for the next size larger machine--it is easier to do a small project on a large machine than to make a small machine grow! Goode luck and enjoy!

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2007, 04:12:09 PM »

If you are wanting to make bullets, buy a lathe that accepts collets, it will be about 10 times easier to make them if you can just feed the stock through and lock it in. Larry

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2007, 05:50:59 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on November 18, 2007, 04:12:09 PM

If you are wanting to make bullets, buy a lathe that accepts collets, it will be about 10 times easier to make them if you can just feed the stock through and lock it in. Larry

What purpose does the collet serve? Why not feed the stock straight through? By the way, I'm not really " making" bullets as I am modifying already made ones.

Dusty,
That goes along with the article I linked a few posts up. Just wondering about where the extra $$$ might come from.

John Traveler · « **Reply #14 on:** November 18, 2007, 08:26:49 PM »

A collet on the headstock end of a lathe serves to hold the workpiece (an individual bullet, copper rod, etc) and allows rapid installation/removal of the object being machined. Being precision ground, it is more accurate than a 3-jaw chuck, and holds a bullet better without damaging it. Collets are made to hold round, square, triangular, hexagonal, octagonal, etc and other geometric shapes.

handirifle · « **Reply #15 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:32:40 PM »

Thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:49:10 PM »

Even Grizzly is made in China, but they have good CS from what I've read.

Tim

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/Homier/Homier_mill_p1.htm

Keith L · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2007, 12:21:21 AM »

In the price range Handirifle is working in I doubt he will be able to find much that isn't made in China. They own the low priced market for now, but I suspect in the near future the former Soviet Block eastern European nations will be competing. Even used American equipment in good shape will cost more unless Handirifle finds the deal of the year.

I would tend to buy an older lathe and overhaul it, but not everyone has the knowledge or easy access to the equipment necessary to get that done.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2007, 05:47:28 AM »

I did a little research last night and this am, Sherline is made in the US or was, prices seem real reasonable if they are.

Tim

http://www.sherline.com/prices.htm

Keith L · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2007, 08:41:53 AM »

That is good to know. I admire companies that start as imports then move production to the U.S. I may just have to get one of those little lathes...

One more point: For the extra $100 I would get the longer bed. I think it is well worth the money.

thekiltedgreatrob · « **Reply #20 on:** December 12, 2007, 09:25:26 AM »

These lathes make good “kits” if you take it apart and replace the bearings with a good quality bearing and tighten up the gibs and ways you can do a few things with it, I have one and built a 9 mm pistol using it, I would recommend buying a used older lathe that is better quality keep in mind that the 450.00 is for just the lathe you will need about 150-200 in tooling and stuff, The mini lathe has a small through hole (mine wont feed a ¾” bar) so that limits you on chamber and barrel work, To say repeatability and accuracy it left wanting is a understatement I have yet to make a unaided strait or square cut If I had it to do again I would have hunted down an older better quality lathe

Robert

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #21 on:** December 12, 2007, 09:44:30 AM »

It looks like everybody beat this topic to death, but i will agree with the other people that said to use a collet lathe. A old Warner and Swazey with a turret would be even better.

What you don't understand since you do not have a machining background is that it might cost you two to three times the amount of the lathe to get the cutting tools and the holders that you need to do the jobs you will want to do once you get the lathe.

A lathe can be something as simple as a bench lathe that all you do is turn it on an cut by hand to something as complex as a Mazac. They all work on the same principle and will all give the same results as long as you get one that has good mechanicals.

The last place I worked at needed a new drill chuck and arbor for the tailstock and a replacement part was $500!

You are going to say, what will I need that for? It holds the center drill and the other drill bits and allows to you drill on a lathe.

The employer wouldn't buy a new one and when I tried to fix the old one, the Union guys complained and told me to get back to work.

You can't do quality work without quality tools.

Also

You will need machinist tools and if you are going to attempt to do anything with bullets, you are going to need to have a scale that you can use to weigh the bullets.

As far as using the excuse that you cannot get lead bullets anymore - is just bologna. Mail order will UPS bullets anywhere. If you still cannot find what you are looking for - call Grice Gun Shop and they will be happy to ship anywhere with a valid credit card. In a plain brown box that nobody will know what is inside besides you and UPS.

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2007, 09:45:26 AM »

www.gricegunshop.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warner-Swazey-1-A-Turret-Lathe_W0QQitemZ110203685596QQihZ001QQcategoryZ92150QQcmdZViewItem

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2007, 10:58:23 AM »

What you are over looking is that CA has outlawed the USE of lead bullets. It's not that they are not available but just not legal to use.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2007, 03:58:12 PM »

Currently the lead bullet ban effects part of the lower 1/3 of the State. Understand that it will not effect the L.A. gangs.

handirifle · « **Reply #25 on:** December 13, 2007, 05:21:13 PM »

Quote from: The Gamemaster on December 12, 2007, 09:44:30 AM

You will need machinist tools and if you are going to attempt to do anything with bullets, you are going to need to have a scale that you can use to weigh the bullets.

As far as using the excuse that you cannot get lead bullets anymore - is just bologna. Mail order will UPS bullets anywhere. If you still cannot find what you are looking for - call Grice Gun Shop and they will be happy to ship anywhere with a valid credit card. In a plain brown box that nobody will know what is inside besides you and UPS.

First off, I do not plan on making a gun and as for how precise the bullets need to be, keep in mind, I'm NOT making them but rather modifying already made bullets, like the Barnes TSX's. I have already done some with my drill press and Harbor freight cutoff saw. These bullets have proven very accurate in my Winchester 375 BB. So to me, a lathe of almost ANY caliber will be a vast improvement over my existing araingment, only a lot easier to do it with. And YES I do know I will have to buy other tools to go with it and have been saving money to do so.

As GB said, CA has outlawed lead bullets for hunting. I can, do, and will, still use lead bullets for practice, but beginning June of '08 I will have to use lead free for ALL hunting, so it's NEVER been a matter of getting them, but legally using them. I actually cast my own now for my 38-55 and 45-70.

Oh yes, it's NEVER been an excuse. This is a hobby for me, not a way of living. I work on electronics items from time to time as part of projects, but I do not need the tool a computer repairman needs to make it work for me or fun.

I looked at the link posted above and I couldn't dream of coughing up $1200 for used tools. Sorry, but I'm only looking for info and feedback on the lathe in the pic or similar. THOSE are in my range. Not meaing to offend anyone here that is offering sound advice for those that can afford it, but I do not have the room or the money for one of the larger "used" lathes. Besides, I've bought sed tools before that cost more to rebuild than they were worth, at least to me.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #26 on:** December 15, 2007, 11:17:04 AM »

What a great way for dem liberals to eliminate gang shootings in the inner city, outlaw the use of lead bullets by gang members, that will surely stop them!!!....<><....

handirifle · « **Reply #27 on:** December 25, 2007, 06:47:11 PM »

Well (Mrs.

) Santa came and I got the 12" Harbor freight lathe, woohoo! I printed out all the info from a mini lathe site and the learning curve has begun. There looks like there's a lot to it but it will be fun. If I can find a course at the college on metal shop I'll take it but I don't remember seeing it before. If not it will be a self taught and asking lots of questions.

I need to get the drill chuck for the tailstock (see I'm already talking lathe talk

), and some cutting tools.

I appreciate all the advice given here and would have tried to get a more expensive model, but as I said before this will cover all of what I can think of doing. If not there's always a pro machine shop.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** December 25, 2007, 06:51:37 PM »

Congrats Handi, have fun!! Now if'n you can just make some mounts for the 38-55 on it you'll be all set!!

Tim

Slufoot · « **Reply #29 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:06:47 AM »

WOW! Cool, handirifle,
I bet you are going to love your Christmas present. Be careful, take your time and have fun.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot