Author Topic: Winter Project: Rem 700 .243 (Read 4186 times)

~Ace~ · « **Reply #30 on:** November 11, 2007, 05:07:32 AM »

The Choate USS Stock is Heavy, Bulky, and kinda Funny looking,.

But that one is a Rem 700 of mine..

For Prone or Bench it's a VERY accurate platform. NOT a gun you want to try and shoot Offhand, or carry long distances. They Feel Good, Shoot Good and Fit Good. For their intended use they are great. If you want something more Mobile, I'd look at a B&C Medalist like ...

It also has the Alum bedding block, but is lighter, more portable and can be shot offhand. HERE is a review I wrote on the Medalist.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #31 on:** November 11, 2007, 05:59:28 AM »

Ace you have a couple real nice looking rifles there.

Dale

beemanbeme · « **Reply #32 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:12:09 AM »

Pillar bedding seems to be all the rage now. It does away with the need for a bedding block. I've had a couple with the plates and still had to skim bed them in order to get the best out of them. No big deal and since it is a winter project, it'll keep him off the streets.

ACE, I don't care how comfortable, etc that one "men in black, star wars looking" POS is, I wouldn't let it in my house. (imagine a big frowny face)

Don't go above 4x on your hunting scope. 2.5 or 4x being ideal. Only after you've hunted with it a while will you find out just how versitile a 2.5 scope is. You can use it to pull thru a running deer just like a shotgun.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #33 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:22:07 AM »

Most people don't shoot running Deer.. But I guess it's OK for Anti Starwars folks...

Recomending a Under 4X scope is a Joke, not knowing the area a person hunts. If you are hunting Very thick woods with Under 50 yard shots, Under 4X is great.. Otherwise, Leave it on the pistol and put a Rifle Scope on the Rifle.

I'll admit, the using a rifle as a shotgun with running shots comment caught me offguard, And I'm not sure what to make of it, except I Hope like Hell I'm never in the woods you hunt.

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #34 on:** November 11, 2007, 07:51:32 AM »

As far as the stock, I'm still leaning in the direction of one of the B&C models. Great features and I can add a bit of "bling" with one of their custom camo finishes. That's IF I even change out the stock. I'm getting rather close to my max budget so we'll have to see what happens there.... I kind of like the look of the "sniper" styled stock IF I was to be a 100% bench shooter. HOWEVER.... with hunting and shooting off hand a very real possibility, that puts the big kabosh on that.

With my varmint/predator shots being in the 100 to 500 yard range, depending on the set. I'm hopeful that the 4.5x14 will do the trick. For deer in the areas I usually hunt, shots will typically be well within 150 yards. With a max of about 200 yards. Having shot with a 4x scope on my slug gun, the FX-II on the rifle should be fine at those distances. And just so we're on the same page... I don't take shots at running game. Walking.... m-a-y-b-e. But never at a runner. It's a very low percentage shot and I won't risk it.

I'm still wondering which path I should take for a base and sets of rings for both scopes. Leupold has three systems available and they all appear to be of fine quality. Does anyone out there have any personal experience with these QR systems?

~Ace~ · « **Reply #35 on:** November 11, 2007, 08:01:01 AM »

I like the WARNE Bases and rings... the Leupold Mark 4's are made by Warne, and Right NOW Cabellas has their "Maxima" series of bases and rings on sale (Also made by Warne) they are Dirt Cheap this week

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #36 on:** November 11, 2007, 12:47:49 PM »

I think that people some times forget there are other types of hunting/conditions than what they do. Running shots at deer are not that uncommon. Of course it is close range, usually under 50 yards. Around here, there are a lot of hunters that tree stand in the AM then get with buddies and drive deer in the PM. If you are in a deer drive, you had better be ready for a running shot, because that is what it is all about. Even when in a tree stand, there are occasional running shots. Tree stands are usually built on or over looking deer "runs". A deer may be spooked by another hunter and the deer is in full flight as it goes by your stand. Ya, there are a lot of hunters in the woods. Lots of deer too. Of course I am talking deep woods and wood lot hunting. Why do you think a fast handling 30-30 lever is so popular in the eastern and Northern woods? I worked with a guy that went to Maine yearly to deer hunt, he used a semi-auto 30-06. Why, to shoot at running deer of course. Up there, he stalked deer. Some times he could sneak up on 'em, some times he spooked one out of a bed and he had to snap shoot them. He shot trap all summer, he knew what he was doing shooting at moving targets. He was successful most years. He had plenty of other guns he could have used. Out where the spaces are more open taking a shot at a running deer 200+ yards out is fool hearty at best and could leave a wounded deer to die some where at worst, but not up close.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #37 on:** November 12, 2007, 04:14:29 AM »

My goodness, Ace. You would chide me about a choice of scopes without knowing where someone hunts and then making your snotty remark about not hunting in my woods. Just exactly who is being arbitrary. If a deer is wounded, whether he is walking, running, or whatever, you do what you can to bring him to bag. Year before last, I shot a deer (100# variety) at 250 yards. I was using a .260 and a K3. It was a simple standing shot and I didn't feel it was any too challenging. Some years back a friend and I were working a draw in Wyoming. I was in a little cut almost to the floor of the draw and heard my buddy shoot. In a moment, a nice mulie came down the draw carrying the mail. I didn't know if he was wounded or not. I did know he was back dropped by the far wall of the draw. My rifle was a 7mag and the scope was a 2x7 Leuy set on 2x. I pulled thru and as my cross hairs touched his nose, I pulled the trigger and watched him cartwheel to a dead stop.
So you see, Ace, a 2.5x is a pretty handy RIFLE scope --no less an authority than Jack Oconnor wrote questioning if the 4x was too much magnification-- and if you hunt long enough, you find occassions when you need to shoot at running deer.

nomosendero · « **Reply #38 on:** November 12, 2007, 05:53:12 PM »

In the past, some questioned if the Ford flathead V-8 had too much power & a couple of generations before that some thought that if you tried to travel over 40 MPH it would kill you.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #39 on:** November 13, 2007, 01:05:40 AM »

You will be more efficient, get better gas mileage and be safer at forty MPH than at 70 MPH, but people insist on going 70 MPH when they know 40 MPH is better. I can talk vaguely too.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #40 on:** November 13, 2007, 04:15:45 AM »

A couple weeks ago I was riding down the road with my wife. I was doing 55 in a 65 my wife asked why I was driving so slow. I told her I was saving gas. We were in no hurry to get to where we were going so why not save on gas. My truck only get 12 miles to the gallon to start with and any little bit helps. Dale

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #41 on:** November 13, 2007, 05:48:06 AM »

Can we please get back on track here?

I believe my choice for the base rifle is going to be the VLS over the SPS. This was based on... First, since the new stock may be some time off, I'd like to try the wood stock and see how that goes. Second, this is a project gun. And in saying this, the trigger is more than likely going to be replaced with an aftermarket model. Right now a nice Jewell is at the top of that list. And third... From what I can tell, the VLS has a faster twist barrel at 1 in 9 1/8. The SPS I believe has a 1 in 12 or something like that. With my plans including reloading possibly even weight bullet imaginable, I believe the faster twist barrel is the way to go...

How am I doing so far?

Note: I know I said in my first post this was going to be built on a budget. I have since read and re-read that statement and have come to my senses. This, along with any of my past projects, will most like go over budget in the long run. Probably WAY over. So instead of placing a financial cap on this rifle from the get-go, let's just call this "Stage #1: The initial build"...

beemanbeme · « **Reply #42 on:** November 13, 2007, 06:13:54 AM »

Ah yes, back on task. Your rate of twist will play a large part in the accuracy of your rifle. Assuming we're talking about the large body northern WT's you're gonna need to take advantage of the .243 100-105gr bullets (I've never hunted in Minn so I can't say for sure) so the 1/9 twist would be the way to go. But the slower twist will give you the best accuracy with the lighter bullets. There are formulae that will tell you the optimum weight for each twist (but they are based on bullet length not weight). I don't know the formulae.
Remington makes a good trigger. They can be adjusted to a crisp 3-3.5# break. An adjustment by a smith should run @ $25,00 with a "trigger job" where they take it apart and hone the surfaces and such maybe @$50.00. If you're handy with tools, there are a couple of sites on the net that will walk you thru adjusting the trigger yourself. It's pretty straightforward and safe as most of the horror stories your hear about Remington's bad triggers are the result of someone trying to set them too low or generally not knowing what they were doing.
I think you're on the right track when you say you're gonna shot it for a while and then decide what needs to be done. You don't have to spend all that money at once. Or at all. Did you say you reload?

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #43 on:** November 13, 2007, 06:51:22 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on November 13, 2007, 06:13:54 AM

Ah yes, back on task. Your rate of twist will play a large part in the accuracy of your rifle. Assuming we're talking about the large body northern WT's you're gonna need to take advantage of the .243 100-105gr bullets (I've never hunted in Minn so I can't say for sure) so the 1/9 twist would be the way to go. But the slower twist will give you the best accuracy with the lighter bullets. There are formulae that will tell you the optimum weight for each twist (but they are based on bullet length not weight). I don't know the formulae.
Remington makes a good trigger. They can be adjusted to a crisp 3-3.5# break. An adjustment by a smith should run @ $25,00 with a "trigger job" where they take it apart and hone the surfaces and such maybe @$50.00. If you're handy with tools, there are a couple of sites on the net that will walk you thru adjusting the trigger yourself. It's pretty straightforward and safe as most of the horror stories your hear about Remington's bad triggers are the result of someone trying to set them too low or generally not knowing what they were doing.
I think you're on the right track when you say you're gonna shot it for a while and then decide what needs to be done. You don't have to spend all that money at once. Or at all. Did you say you reload?

Although this rifle "MAY" be used for deer, it's primary function will be varmints and predators. That being said, lighter bullets and longer ranges will probably be closer to the norm. I will be reloading and can tailor my loads for the gun. However, if the faster twist of the VLS will "enjoy" heavier/longer bullets, what do you think will happen with the lighter bullets? Is it possible to put too much spin on a bullet? I can see if too much spin is induced on a short length bullet, there may be a possibility of unstable flight. Resulting in bad accuracy and key holing? Do you agree? If so, then my task would be to find that happy medium of weight, length and charge to create a load that will be fast, stable and flat as well as being "hide friendly" for the local coyote population. Seems like a lot of variables in my last statement.

So if anyone knows where to find these formulas.... Post them up or please provide a link...

As stated, I will put quite a few round through my new rifle BEFORE deciding on what to do with the trigger. Who knows, it may be "perfect for me" right out of the box. Possible but not probable. OR... It could be loaded with creep, have a heavy pull and break like mud... I won't know for sure until I hit the range. I am quite handy with tool and machining. However I have never played with a rifle trigger before. I have printed out a bunch of "how to's" on trigger modification and will continue to study them while I put some trigger time. I'll possibly attempt the trigger jog unless I find the stock assembly so horrible. Then I'll probably opt for the aftermarket replacement rather than trying to "polish a turd".

thanks for your insight and thank you for getting us back on track!!

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #44 on:** November 13, 2007, 06:52:34 AM »

I just looked in my 2007 Remington catalog and both the VLS and the SPS are 9 1/8'' twists. As far as the trigger goes I would hold off on buying an after market trigger because you may really like this trigger and it just may need lightened up a little like mine. Dale

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #45 on:** November 13, 2007, 07:00:23 AM »

I have no problem at all shooting the Hornady 58 grain VMAX. Key holing usually occurs from to slow of twist barrel trying to stabilize a heavy bullet. About the heaviest bullet you will be able to shoot will be a 105 grain. Dale

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #46 on:** November 13, 2007, 07:09:51 AM »

Quote from: DALESCARPENTRY on November 13, 2007, 06:52:34 AM

I just looked in my 2007 Remington catalog and both the VLS and the SPS are 9 1/8'' twists. As far as the trigger goes I would hold off on buying an after market trigger because you may really like this trigger and it just may need lightened up a little like mine. Dale

Hi Dale...

That's what I thought!! The info from my post above came from a so called "Remington expert" at the local box house. He was quite adamant with I disagreed with his statements regarding twist... It seems that he was no expert at all and couldn't even read product specs...

That's why sites like this are so important. Even in disagreement, positive steps can be made!! I will be holding on the aftermarket trigger until after a decent evaluation of the stocker. Just doing a bit of research for my "possibles" list...

As far as ammo, what are you having your best luck with? Granted, all guns will be different, but yours seems to shoot exceptionally well!!! Note: Ya beat me to the punch...

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #47 on:** November 13, 2007, 07:23:09 AM »

So far all I have shot out of it is the Hornady 58 grain VMAX which I have shot groups of 7/8'' at 300 yards and I shot a couple boxes of Federal V-SHOCK 75 grain (when I could not find Hornady) and they shot real well also. I have to get to the range here real soon and sight it in with some 100 grain Winchester ammo for Deer season. So far it seems to shoot anything I feed it. Dale

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #48 on:** November 13, 2007, 10:40:01 AM »

Boy oh boy this is the way to go. If I were to build a rifle this is how I think I would go. When I build my 260 I hope this guy is around. Dale http://www.gunbroker.net/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84724356

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #49 on:** November 13, 2007, 12:12:48 PM »

Quote from: DALESCARPENTRY on November 13, 2007, 10:40:01 AM

Boy oh boy this is the way to go. If I were to build a rifle this is how I think I would go. When I build my 260 I hope this guy is around. Dale http://www.gunbroker.net/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84724356

Good find, Dale!!! Sounds like a good base to start with, that's for sure!!! For me... I'll just continue on my set course for the time being. Gotta get your feet wet somehow.
When it comes time to build my second rifle, probably a 100% dedicated varmint rig, I'll have to see if that guy is still around.

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #50 on:** November 14, 2007, 12:27:21 PM »

Project Update:

My new Remington 700 VLS (.243) has been ordered and it's on the way!!! Found a TREMENDOUS deal on this one!!! After you factor in the $50.00 rebate from Remington, this new VLS will come in at a price very close to the SPS version!! Even if I include the cost of the (future) B & C stock, or possibly the Jewell or Timney trigger, or even the scope for the deer hunting application, I come out just a few dollars over the "rifle only" pricing from my local sports super store!!! The preliminary budget is in VERY good shape at this point!!!

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #51 on:** November 16, 2007, 08:54:15 AM »

Gentlemen....

A new "twist" has developed in my .243 project...

Remember the Browning .270 that the Leupold 4.5x14 I picked up, was mounted on? Well as fate would have it, that very same .270 ALSO found it's way to my house!!!

It turned out that I had more value in the mini bike parts than I originally thought!!!

So now I have a "dang near new" Browning .270 A-Bolt Stalker to utilized as my deer rifle. And the VLS, which is on it's way, will now be a 99% DEDICATED long range varmint rig with the ability to do the 1% "crossover" deer work if needed. If I would have known this from the "get go" I probably would chosen a different caliber for my varmint rig..... HOWEVER.... I am more than happy with the way this saga has unfolded thus far!! I feel like I just won a lottery!!!

The only downside to this whole scenario is that I would still be in the market for a scope. As you know, my original plan was to mount the Leupold 4.5x14 on the .243 for my long range work and purchase second Leupold of lower magnification (and QR rings) for my possible deer pursuits. After some thought and a bit of number crunching, here's what I came up with...

I decided to let the Leupold stay where it is on the .270. It's basically dialed in and ready to go to the range for some fine tuning. I saw no reason to upset a working combination. I've also decided to pick up a Mueller 8.5-25x50 for the .243 project. From the reviews I've read, it's a very good quality scope AND it keeps me well within my budget. Besides, I've wanted to try a "big" scope like this for a long time. And in the future, if I really don't care for the Mueller, the "entry fee" didn't break the bank and I can always fall back on my original optics plan providing I start saving my pennies now.

The budget is in good shape thus far...

$700.00 - Rifle, shipping and FFL transfer
$70.00 - QR rings and base (This figure is an estimate. Probably high. I will pick these up locally when the scope arrives. Any recommendations?)
$230.00 - Mueller scope
$1000.00 - Sub Total

This leaves me with the $250 to $350 in the "kitty" for the B&C stock or a bit of work on the stock trigger. Or maybe an aftermarket trigger. Financially speaking, there were many different paths I could have taken. But this is the path I have chosen and it seems to fit the bill quite nicely.... so far.

Everything should be here and assembled sometime next week. In the mean time, if I am forgetting any little bits and pieces, please don't hesitate to bring them to my attention... Thanks for all the help thus far!! Future updates are on the way.... Stay tuned...

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #52 on:** November 16, 2007, 10:33:32 AM »

You will need a bipod. Rock mount make a knock off of the Harris and I think it is just as good. I have owned both. I prefer the 6'' to 9'' myself. Dale

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #53 on:** November 16, 2007, 12:51:17 PM »

Quote from: DALESCARPENTRY on November 16, 2007, 10:33:32 AM

You will need a bipod. Rock mount make a knock off of the Harris and I think it is just as good. I have owned both. I prefer the 6'' to 9'' myself. Dale

Bipod.... CHECK!! It's now on the list. Swivel or solid mount?

Thanks Dale.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #54 on:** November 16, 2007, 12:59:34 PM »

I have never owned the swivel type. I am not sure I would want to spend the extra money for one though. I am perfectly happy with the fixed. Dale

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #55 on:** November 17, 2007, 05:44:04 AM »

BIPODS

I stopped at Wally World this morning and found bipods in the clearance section of sporting goods. I founds out from a clerk, that all the stores in the twin cities metro area are no longer going to carry firearms and they're blowing out anything gun related. I was lucky enough to find two bipods. One fixed, the other a swivel model. Picked them both up for $60 and change.

SCOPE

My Mueller scope was delivered this morning as well. This thing is HUGE. The 50mm objective may not be the hot ticket. It seems clear enough, however it's not on the rifle yet and with the taller rings it will probably need, I'm not sure if it will be comfortable when mounted. My fingers are crossed, but I am a bit skeptical... $:-\$

SCOPE BASE

I stopped in at Gander Mountain and checked out what they had to offer. I tried to find someone who at least appeared to know what they were talking about, but alas... all the "gun experts" knew less than I did. I looked at both the one piece and the two piece bases. Which type would you recommend to be the most sturdy? I'm thinking two piece Leupold as they look to be well well machined and will leave the port wide open. The one piece models, although more ridged in appearance, close everything off and may make loading and ejection difficult. Your thoughts? $:-\$

RINGS

I was able to physically check out some of the QR ring systems today. And honestly, I'm having second thoughts about these. It seems to me that with only a little wear on the mating pieces, your zero and POI could be thrown off in a heart beat. Granted... It's not like I'm going to be pulling the scope very often. But if I put in a bunch of range time, I may remove the scope once a day when cleaning the rifle. Does anyone know just how many cycles (on and off) these can take before any noticeable changes can be observed? I really like the concept, however if these are "consumable" I may just opt for a static system. Your thoughts? $:-\$

MUZZLE BRAKES

Okay... Before you all start hammering on me for being a recoil sissy.... I'm not. I've seen this topic bantered around on other forums and decided to ask what you thought. From what I've read, the big complaint is the noise/blast being directed basically back at the shooter. If this is the case with all brakes, we can nip this in the bud right here. I there is some merit to a brake on a .243, I'd like to hear about it. I'm a bit of a machinist and have made a few chips in my day. I was just thinking that this could be one area that I could add my own personal touch to the project. But not if I have to sacrifice shooting "comfort" and accuracy. Your thoughts? $:-\$

RELOADING

I picked up 4 boxes of factory ammo ranging from 58 grain up to 100 grain in preparation for some range time. After paying my bill, I realized I WILL be getting into reloading hopefully very soon!!

HOLY SMOKES!!! I thought I would need to pull a loan to buy bullets!!! At these prices I figure I can recoup my costs with only 200 rounds being hand loaded. My buddy mentioned the RCBS Supreme kit as a good place to start as it was recommended to him by a local reloading shop. It seems to be a very complete kit with only a few extras needed besides consumables. Does anyone out there and personal experience with this kit? Your thoughts? $:-\$

Thus ends my time on the keyboard. Sorry for such a long post. I guess the coffee kicked in quite nicely today.

Thanks...

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #56 on:** November 17, 2007, 06:06:16 AM »

Great deal on the bipods. What size did you end up getting? As far as the scope thing you should like it. I went for the Mueller 8.5x25x44 myself. Really no need for a 50MM objective lens. Also I saw no need to spend the extra money on the lighted recticle. As far as bases go I had the one piece Leopold on the 300 Win Mag and really disliked it. It did inter fear a lot with loading the rifle. I like the two piece bases myself. Don't feel silly wanting to muzzle brake your 243. I want to do the same myself. The reason being to reduce muzzle jump and posibably being able to see impact. You could shoot that rifle all day without one and not have it bother your shoulder. Dale

beemanbeme · « **Reply #57 on:** November 17, 2007, 07:10:15 AM »

If you're interested in ultimate accuracy, you will need to get into reloading. Also a one piece base is better as it will make your action stiffer altho it does kinda get in the way. You will probably be firing it single fire anyway. I have a 22-250 Rem VSS that is on its second barrel and it has never had a round in the magazine.
Since each rifle will be a "done deal" in itself, there shouldn't be any reason to be taking the scope off of the rifle between range sessions or any other times. I believe you will need high mounts for your Mueller scope.
Muzzle brakes are something about which I feel strongly. Against.
Reloading: since your commitment to shooting seems to be quite strong, if you can afford the supreme kit from RCBS, it would be a good one. When it comes to reloading, there is a lot of brand loyalty. You might want to start your reloading off by buying the Lyman 48th edition of Reloading and reading it first.

mnmoosehunter · « **Reply #58 on:** November 17, 2007, 11:25:06 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on November 17, 2007, 07:10:15 AM

If you're interested in ultimate accuracy, you will need to get into reloading. Also a one piece base is better as it will make your action stiffer altho it does kinda get in the way. You will probably be firing it single fire anyway. I have a 22-250 Rem VSS that is on its second barrel and it has never had a round in the magazine.
Since each rifle will be a "done deal" in itself, there shouldn't be any reason to be taking the scope off of the rifle between range sessions or any other times. I believe you will need high mounts for your Mueller scope.
Muzzle brakes are something about which I feel strongly. Against.
Reloading: since your commitment to shooting seems to be quite strong, if you can afford the supreme kit from RCBS, it would be a good one. When it comes to reloading, there is a lot of brand loyalty. You might want to start your reloading off by buying the Lyman 48th edition of Reloading and reading it first.

At the prices ammo is going for right now and being in the search for accuracy, reloading is a MUST. I'll be heading back into town early next week and will stop at the book store and see if I can find the book you mentioned. I'll be going through the boxes I've already picked up just to see if she shows a preference. After that, more than likely, it will all be hand loads.

High rings, most likely NOT of the QR variety, will probably be needed. I'm concerned that the scope could be too high off the barrel for me to feel comfortable on the stock. I guess I'll find that out when I have it mounted... Like I said, a 50mm objective is new to me so we'll just have to see what happens...

I'm very open to hear all view points.... You state you're against muzzle brakes.... Can you tell me your reasoning? Maybe I'm missing something...

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 18, 2007, 12:35:10 AM »

You can have muzzle brakes that are removable. Just get a cap to cover the threads when not using it to protect them. If it is removable, then you can shoot it both ways. Most of the complaints about muzzle brakes comes from bystanders. They are much louder with than with out, especially to people setting to the right of you and left of you. They can be especially annoying to others at a range. Of course in the field they are real loud too. If you shoot in wide open spaces then there is not usually a problem. If you shoot with people not far away, then you can get complaints about the noise. You should wear hearing protection when shooting, it does not matter if you have a muzzle brake or not.

Since you got a scope that will set above the bore a ways, you should get a bubble level. Cant of the rifle/scope will effect long distance shooting. It is imperative to hold the rig perpendicular when sighting in, at the range and when shooting in the field. The further above the bore the scope is mounted, the more this comes into play. You will find that when shooting off of Bi-pods that you will be turning the power down. If you find this is the case, sight in your rig at the power you will be using most. Remember that a 500 yard target will look like it is at 50 yards with the power set at 10X.