Where to place a bullet in a bear

[Cabin4]

Shoulder shots on Black Bear are very effective if you are using a large caliber rifle capable of penetrating both shoulders, and you are shooting from the proper angle.

While this may be accurate, the point of separating opinion from logic is what needs to happen. ballistics and their effectiveness on killing game is based in physics, not opinion. There can be a point in this when the physical analysis results in a "coin toss" to determine the best shot placement on a given animal/bullet combination. In this case of a shoulder shots on a bears, the sure kill is clearly the vital shot, not a shoulder shot as the sure killer. So, If you can shoot a bear in the shoulder, you can then therfore shoot him in the vitals. So why would anyone shoot the bear in the shoulder if it has a lower kill ratio? Logic says you would not, so why risk it?

Thats what this should be about, sperating opinion from facts & supporting physical ballistics. And the fact is, if you want to KILL an animal, you shoot for the vitals, not the shoulder with hopes that your bullet will then enter the vitals. Makes no sence, just shoot for the vitals and the animal will die. Thats the desired results anyway, death, not disable. Disabeling a target is a warfare tactic not a hunting tactic.

[blackbear]

cabin4, A shattered shoulder blade sends out jagged chunks of bone into the chest cavity. The heart, lungs and major arteries are located in the chest cavity. Shattered shoulders stop the bear from running away. If this does not kill the bear, he is stationary for a follow-up shot. If the shoulder blade is missed the spine,chest cavity,  jugular vein may still be hit. BUT, you have to use a suitable caliber rifle. Where am I lacking logically? Look at bear anatomy. You believe that if you can see the bears shoulder that his vitals are exposed? You are mistaken.

Shoulder shots on Black Bear are very effective if you are using a large caliber rifle capable of penetrating both shoulders, and you are shooting from the proper angle.

 So, If you can shoot a bear in the shoulder, you can then therfore shoot him in the vitals.

Thats what this should be about, sperating opinion from facts & supporting physical ballistics. animal will die. This is only your opinio

You are only stating your opinion.

[teddy12b]

Where I hunted in canada last season I had two guides telling me I should have went for a shoulder shot.  One of them had been guideing for 30 some years, and the other for 20 some years.  Logic is nice, but I'll favor whatever an experienced guide says.  I tried explaining to the guides why I aimed for the vitals on the first shot and they just shook their heads.  They said hit him right in the shoulder and then hit him again if he tries to get away or needs a finishing shot.  A hunter may hunt one or two animals a season and that's valuable experience, but a guide helps anywhere from 5 or more people each season and sees so much more of what actually works.  Next time I hunt, I'll be aiming for the shoulder, but to each their own.

[Drilling Man]

  There's a difference between shooting a bear from a tree and then letting someone go find it for you, than shooting them from the ground...  I see that all the time on those hunting shows...  I've never shot a bear from a tree, or over bait...  I've stalked them all, got close and got the job done...

  I prefer to have them stay put, when i shoot, so i anchor them on the spot, and if they need a "fininisher" so be it...

  When i was helping someone else get a bear, i had them break both shoulders too, as "I" was the one cleaning up any mess' made, and tracking brown bears in the thick alders can be tricky at best!  Been there and done that with lung shot bears.

  Now, those that like to lung shoot big bears, should be made to go after them themselves, it's a good way to clean up the gene pool a bit...

  That's just been my experience...

  DM

[Cabin4]

cabin4, A shattered shoulder blade sends out jagged chunks of bone into the chest cavity. The heart, lungs and major arteries are located in the chest cavity. Shattered shoulders stop the bear from running away.

You mean, you hope that that happens. So here's my question, why shoot the shoulder to shatter bones that will fly into the vitals when you can just bypass the shoulder and shoot for the vitals?? Since you admit by this tactic that the vitals are your intended target anyway?  See what I mean?

No its not just my opinion, its fact that if you hit the vitals you will kill it. SO why why risk going thru the shoulder when you admit you want to hit the vitals???

I understand the point about "breaking them down". If you hit the vitals, that will kill them so why bother with the shoulder?? Hitting the vitals supersedes the need to break them down.

[Cabin4]

Where I hunted in canada last season I had two guides telling me I should have went for a shoulder shot.  One of them had been guideing for 30 some years, and the other for 20 some years.  Logic is nice, but I'll favor whatever an experienced guide says.  I tried explaining to the guides why I aimed for the vitals on the first shot and they just shook their heads.  They said hit him right in the shoulder and then hit him again if he tries to get away or needs a finishing shot.  A hunter may hunt one or two animals a season and that's valuable experience, but a guide helps anywhere from 5 or more people each season and sees so much more of what actually works.  Next time I hunt, I'll be aiming for the shoulder, but to each their own.

The vitals on a bear are a much smaller target then the shoulder so some guides (poor ones) will tell the client to aim for the shoulder with the HOPE it will do enough damage to follow up with a latter kill shot. A skilled shooter who has selected the right bullet/caliber combo and is proficient with it, can hit the vitals. Most guides don't know if their clients can hit the broad side of a barn so they give safe advise (go for the shoulder). However, that safe advise come with risks to the client. You may never get your bear but your guide can say "you hit it" and he did his job. Not all advise from a guide is in your best interest. Some of it is in his best interest and at your expense. A skilled, honest and professional guide Will tell you, aim for the vitals.

[blackbear]

Cabin4, The problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. You are not speaking from experience, only from what you think you know. You are wrong.

[blackbear]

Cabin4, The problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. You are not speaking from experience, only from what you think you know. You are wrong.

What happened to the facts and logic you spoke of earlier? I get wound up over this because I spend so much time doing Black Bear research and hunting. The hunters that are ignorant of bear anatomy are most likely to wound and loose their bear. I do not mind tracking wounded bear but I hate loosing them because of poor shot placement. And it is often times the hunter like you who thinks he really knows his stuff when in reality they don't have a clue.

[Cabin4]

Cabin4, The problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. You are not speaking from experience, only from what you think you know. You are wrong.

Your wrong about that and not only do I know the details of this issue,  I guided in years past for bear in Wisconsin & Maine, I owned a hunting & fishing camp for over 10 years that specialized in black hunting in northern Wisconsin. I have hired and worked with some of those territories best guides including native American guides. It has only been on rare occasion did I ever work with, hunt with or come acquaintance with a guide (experienced or inexperienced) in over 30 years of hunting or the hunting business that would recommend a shoulder shot.In those cases, the logic given was as I explained in my prior post. Those guides logic for the shoulder shot was based on the concept that the client was either a poor shot or their ability was unknown. When you meet up with your guide and he tells you lets hit the pit and make sure that rifle is still sighted in.... that serves not only as a test that your rifle is sighted in, he also assessing your shooting ability. If you stink, you may just get the shoulder shot recommendation !! If your good, you'll get the challenge of the smaller vital target.

The argument that has been put forth for this tactic is not only illogical, it completely contradicts itself. In every case, the argument includes that the same bullet that hits the shoulder needs to hit the vitals and or there must be a second follow up kill shot. This being the case, whats the logic for aiming at the shoulder when you can aim for the vitals and kill it with the 1st shot?

So while you seem incapable of offering any continuing sound logic only a personal attack, your the one that is wrong. If you were right, you would have responded with logic that counters the information that I have provided. The reason why you could not respond with additional counter logic, is because your the one that's wrong and your out of gas.

The shoulder shot has been backed into the corner and there's no way out.  

[Cabin4]

Cabin4, The problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. You are not speaking from experience, only from what you think you know. You are wrong. What happened to the facts and logic you spoke of earlier? I get wound up over this because I spend so much time doing Black Bear research and hunting. The hunters that are ignorant of bear anatomy are most likely to wound and loose their bear. I do not mind tracking wounded bear but I hate loosing them because of poor shot placement. And it is often times the hunter like you who thinks he really knows his stuff when in reality they don't have a clue.

Blackbear,

You need to make up you mind on this. Now your admitting that you don't mind tracking a wounded bear after a shoulder shot!!!! If a shoulder shot is the best shot to take, why would you have to track him??? Since when is hitting a bear or any animal in the vitals considered a poor shot as you say?? I've never heard of this garbage. You need to continue your research. You have no idea what your talking about.

Explain to us PLEASE, why aiming to hit a bear in the vitals is a "poor shot"?

[blackbear]

LOL You sure can twist words.

[Graybeard]

OK guys I'm concerned this is gonna get out of hand before I get back so.... Argue the facts all ya want, disagree with the opinion of the other but keep it to that. Don't begin to attack the person attack only the comments and ideas. That's the way we do it here no personal attacks or name calling allowed.

Me I dunno never shot a bear. Maybe JJ Hack will drop by he's been in on the taking either shooting them personally or guiding someone to about a thousand bears. I suspect he might know a bit about the subject.

[blackbear]

Graybeard, Sounds good to me. Much obliged.

[jk3006]

Here's one of Jim's posts on another forum.  All about the shoulder shot.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/185083/page/0/fpart/1

[Cabin4]

Here's one of Jim's posts on another forum.  All about the shoulder shot.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/185083/page/0/fpart/1

Perfect example of why the shoulder is poor placement on this type of animal. The best approach on a bear is to wait for the slight quartering away shot and bring in the arrow or bullet into the vitals from this angle. This allows you to avoid having to hit a shoulder to get to the vitals. On the exit, your bullet will likely take out the opposing shoulder anyway... I have seen bear hit in the shoulder with a broad side shot and run off, never to be found. Many will require a follow up hit. But in places were your bait hunting, also likly means thick woods. In Maine, Wisconsin, Ontario and other similar places, GOOD LUCK !!  getting a follow up shot in..... It likely will never happen. In these areas the objective is to hit the heart lung area to either drop him on the spot, within yards or at minimum put the bullet in a spot that will draw lots of blood and the best place for this is in the boiler room. That bear cannot live long with a hole in his heart or lung and you will draw the most blood possible. Aiming for the shoulder on the entry, will be less likely of hitting the vitals unless that bullet continues straight (unlikely) and or you shatter enough bone fragments into the vitals. This appraoch provides to many "IFs".
 
Yes, perhaps the perfect bullet selection shot a extreme velocity will do the job on the shoulder. But most guys are not shooting cannons on a bait hunt, so the shoulder shot recommendation must also include this specific requirement.If your hunting bear over bait, your tree or ground stand location and the way the bait set is located should be strategically designed to force the bear to present the quartering away shot. With a little thought, this can easily be thought through at the bait site. Your guide should be able to explain this concept to you in advance. If your guide doesn't understand this concept, get another guide.

This approach uses the practice of shooting for very specific shot placement(weapon proficiency) and tree stand to bait set design (thought process). All part of the challenge and excitement of hunting. Anyone can go out there with a rifle cannon and hope for the all the "stars to align".

[blackbear]

My son is one of the best natural shooters I know. He has taken 2 larger than average Black Bear. One with my old 30-30 Winchester and the other with his 30-06. He shoots them in the spine. Both bears dropped where they stood. One bear was 250pounds and the other 280.

[wyocarp]

I've read the posts.  I think all of you are right depending on rifle that you use.  The shoulder shot isn't going to be as valid on a large animal (bear) if one is using a small caliber with rapidly expanding bullets.  I think the shoulder shot works well with bigger calibers using more solid projectiles.  I'll shoot bears in different areas depending on how the situation presents itself.  But I use enough gun.  I wanted a bear this past year after hurrying to get to him from a couple miles away with a friend.  Because it was getting late we had to quickly hike to the top of a mountain where the bear was and the shot I had was an eighty yard shot between a bunch of branches and all I could see was the head.  I liked the color and I didn't want to be skunked with having coaxed a friend to come along.  The bear was less than ten yards from going over the ridge into thick timber.  I shot him in the head.  The taxidermist can sort out the problem from there.  That bear rolled like he was already stuffed.  I wouldn't have tried that with a .270.  I usually pass on head shots, but the playbook is wide open to me as long as I know the game plan and I have the gun for it.

[ORsouthpaw]

Well as I said in my post the shoulder shot that I made didn't drop my bear nor did it disable him. Yes, it broke his shoulder. yes either debris(Bone) or my bullet tore into his heart. An hour later he was still going getting around pretty well although viably limping. My second shot through the vitals (Lungs) put him down quickly within 15ft. Having taken both shots, anytime I'm shooting a bear in the future I will be aiming in the vital pocket. i aimed for the shoulder initially because I too thought anchor him and follow up however I won't make that assumption ever again. My bear was 460lbs, Shot with a 140gr Federal-Nosler Accubond from my .270. Both shots were exactly at the point of aim and the bullets performed just as you would expect from Nosler.       

[blackbear]

A .270 is way too light for shoulder shots on a mature Black Bear. In my opinion they are too light for mature Black Bear period.

[ORsouthpaw]

I would agree there are heavier rounds that are more typically thought of as better suited for general bone destruction. However you are going to have a very hard time convincing me that any other round would have been any more destructive that what I saw. This didn't just crack the shoulder bone. It punched all the way through into the chest cavity leaving a 2.5" hole in the shoulder joint itself. Maybe if your using a lesser quality bullet it might be more of a question but I can only go by what I have personally witnessed with the equipment in my possession. 

.270 Win + 140gr Accubond = broken shoulder 

.300 Win M.+ 180gr Partiion = broken shoulder

[blackbear]

.270 Win. + 140gr Accubond = 3-legged bear running away. The 140gr bullet spent all of it's energy penetrating one shoulder. 3-Legged big game animals run and sometimes run far. Big game animals with both shoulders broken do not run. I am not saying shoulder shots are always appropriate, no shot is always the right shot. You need to know what your caliber and bullet are capable of. I started out bear hunting with my .270. Hunting mature boars in thick brush as I do I learned the hard way that a light fast bullet is not what I need to use when taking 15 yard shots at large boars. What I now use does work for me. Most any caliber will take down a bear but as you found out big bears are nothing like 150 pound bears. Congratulations on taking a great trophy.

[ORsouthpaw]

.270 Win. + 140gr Accubond = 3-legged bear running away.

So how broke can a shoulder actually get? I'm just curious because my understanding of bear anatomy goes something like this: A bear with a broken shoulder, three good legs and no critical vital damage will still run away and he probably doesn't really care what caliber of bullet did the damage.

[blackbear]

The point is that one broken shoulder will not stop a big game animal. You proved that point yourself. Glad to talk about bear, not interested in arguing.

[ORsouthpaw]

I agree, Good hunting!

[bearfat]

Is the red dot where you shoulder shot guys feel is the best spot for the big bears? Or is it down a little?

[blackbear]

I would not aim at the shoulder with the bear in this position. Heart / lung shot.

[bearfat]

OK...but is the red dot in the proper position and which position should they be in for the shoulder shot?

 

[ORsouthpaw]

Maybe this will help...

[bearfat]

Yes that helps alot. I put a red dot on where I think the shoulder shot should be taken but I really don't know...I've never taken it and I'm asking questions.

I'm totally lost on the correct body position too. Apparently broadside is not good. 

Well...maybe someone that knows the correct body position and exact place to place the bullet will respond.

 

[ihookem]

  Lots of good info here and first hand experience too.  Blackbear, I had a bad experience with my 270 win. with a bear in Wisconsin too. I put it right in the boiler room. It ran off very fast. It hardly bled at all and was very hard to track. I knew my shot, even found rib bone on the ground by the bait. Trying to find that bear was a nightmare. To make matters worse it was getting dark, then there he was, pointing my gun at him and shouting to see if it would move. Moving in on him  to find a long black stump instead of a bear. Then after 20yds after the last  drop of blood I found another drop of blood, 20yds later there he was laying over a tree stump. A nice long skinny bear of 224 lbs, I redeemed myself after a small 80lb first bear ,I prayed and thanked God for my reward. A 6'6" rug, a long skinny bear, I call it the Randy Moss bear. After a lot of thinking about everyones post, I think a 270 is a darn good round, but not for black bear. This bear had so much fat it clogged up the little hole and almost no blood.I never would have believed a bear could be so hard to track. I am going to get a big boar gun next time just for bear over bait, Like a 444 or a 45-70. Or maybe I will try the shoulder shot and break the spine. With all the shoulder blade bone flying around inside it might hit the spine and blood veins. I don't know but I never want to almost loose a bear again! I also got a 107lb bear near Crane Lake MN. with a shot in back of the head and didn't move. More experiences would be even more interesting. Thanks, ihookem.