Author Topic: "Best" caliber for throwing big, heavy, casted bullets at deer, hogs, blk bear? (Read 2798 times)

lefty red · « **on:** December 08, 2006, 04:43:25 PM »

45/70, 450 Marlin, 500 S&W, or ?

Also, I'm a wuss and don't like "kick" but like a "rolling push"!

I plan on using a good reddot or low power scope or might settle on a good reciever sight.

Ranges are going to be 100-125 yards for deer, and "up close and personal" for hogs and blk bear in the brush.

Also, in 45/70 I've heard that the shorter barrel doesn't kick like the longer one. Is that true?

I know there are other smaller, faster calibers that can do what I want. But I like casting those "soup can" size lead boolits and loading up in sausage size brass.

I plan on using a HANDI Monte Carlos stock (sp?) of wood with a good recoil pad.

Lefty

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2006, 04:47:27 PM »

45-70...Hands Down...

Mac

Datil · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2006, 04:53:39 PM »

45-70 Hands up, just my 2 cents Marv.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2006, 04:59:45 PM »

+3 for the .45-70, specially if you don't handload!! There are no "trapdoor" equals in .500 or .450M loads, all factory ammo is loaded to an uncomfortable level from all reports here, in fact there have been several sold due to that fact. They all can be handloaded to lower levels that would be comfortable to shoot.

The 32" BC has just as much recoil as the 22"Handi, but due to the metal butt plate, isn't comfortable to shoot heavy loads, the longer barrel isn't "Handi" eitiher! I have 2 of each, they all get recoil pads of one sort or another!!

Tim

lefty red · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:15:38 PM »

I had narrowed down my choices to the 500 S&W (cause I have a barrel I got cheap) and the 45/70, but was wondering what the actual shooters thought about it.

I figured the metal butt plate might be too much. I had a BIG BOAR in 58cal that had a metal butt plate and it kicked like a mule!

So, there won't be a big differance in the performance between the 32 and 22 inch barrels in 45/70? I figure a WILLIAMs peep sight would help out on groups.

I have to reload if I want to shoot at all! Its just too expensive.

Lefty

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:21:30 PM »

no contest, it's the 45-70 all the way!!!....<><....

bighoof · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:46:11 PM »

While I haven't shot the 500S&W, the 45-70 would be a good choice. Factory ammo cheaper too. Recoil can be painful, but using a limbsaver recoil pad works.
the 405gr factory ammo will do the tricks on hogs also, friend dropped one last year over 250lbs. I've been shooting 325gr lever ammo, which has more felt recoil than the others. I was doing some video stuff today at the range, which makes the recoil look bad but I've felt worse,I used to have a 300win that you light you up. I didn't notice until I slowed the frame down how much that handi would move you.

Video:

nomosendero · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:50:19 PM »

45-70

jack19512 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:52:43 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 08, 2006, 04:59:45 PM

I have 2 of each, they all get recoil pads of one sort or another!!

Tim

Do you know what good recoil pad fits on the BC without much modification?

lefty red · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:59:41 PM »

OK, but what about the barrel length? 22" or 32" for the 45/70? I'm almost wanting to get the 32" and scope it for deer and get the 22" with some WILIIAMS FIRESIGHTs for brush work.

Lefty

BTW great video and some great lefthanded shooting!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:07:45 PM »

The Limbsaver slip on will fit and work for bench work, but it doesn't fit tight enough for hunting, it kept slipping sideways if I wasn't careful when I brought it to my shoulder. A better choice is the Galco slip on, it's a bit expensive, but works very well. The other alternative is to whack the butt off square and install a grind to fit.

Tim

Galco slip-on

McLernon · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:11:57 PM »

Excellent Post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I sure like the looks of that short barrel with the BC fore-stock and the straight buttstock!! Makes me want one.

McLernon

jack19512 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:25:28 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 08, 2006, 06:07:45 PM

I like this one. Is this a grind to fit?

McLernon · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:29:56 PM »

I think I'd like the short barrel version but I am averse to recoil. Can it be loaded with an effective hunting load(75yds) for deer and sill be shootable by an 'old guy'

McLernon

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:31:45 PM »

Thanks McLernon!!

Bighoof, nice video, but where'd ya get that left handed Handi, I didn't know they made em!!!

Lefty, you "need" em both, unless you really like the BC stock and case colored frame, just get the wood stocked .45-70 Handi, then get a BC barrel for it later, they don't come with sights, so you can get it how ya want it. If it's too long, have the barrel cut to about 26" or 27" as Big Blue did and you'll probably love it!!

Tim

Big Blue's BC

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:35:48 PM »

Jack, yes, that's a medium Limbsaver grind-to fit, but the small will work just fine, less grinding!

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2006, 06:45:12 PM »

Quote from: McLernon on December 08, 2006, 06:29:56 PM

I think I'd like the short barrel version but I am averse to recoil. Can it be loaded with an effective hunting load(75yds) for deer and sill be shootable by an 'old guy'

McLernon

Even trapdoor loads are very effective out to 150yds or so, the Remington factory 300gr and 405gr are fairly easy on the shoulder and very effective on deer....from all reports!! I have yet to shoot anything but paper with mine, but their turn is a coming!!

For even closer stuff, the 405gr remington as a cheap bullet would be killer on deer at about 1000fps which is close to what it's loaded in the factory ammo. These are easy to shoot even from the bench. Handloaded even slower, they're great plinkers, Paul5388 shoots cast bullets of this size with great accuracy and low recoil, maybe he'll chime in on it. Here's a link to some low velocity data that would be ideal for close range .45-70 shooting.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

bighoof · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2006, 03:22:29 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 08, 2006, 06:31:45 PM

Thanks McLernon!!

Bighoof, nice video, but where'd ya get that left handed Handi, I didn't know they made em!!!

Lefty, you "need" em both, unless you really like the BC stock and case colored frame, just get the wood stocked .45-70 Handi, then get a BC barrel for it later, they don't come with sights, so you can get it how ya want it. If it's too long, have the barrel cut to about 26" or 27" as Big Blue did and you'll probably love it!!

Tim

Big Blue's BC

Like my handi, but Big Blue's BC has me crying. I want my next one to look like that. Was the wood refinish.
Always wanted to see that 45-70 in slow motion, thought it was kinda neat.

Grizz_ · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2006, 05:07:11 AM »

Quote from: McLernon on December 08, 2006, 06:29:56 PM

I think I'd like the short barrel version but I am averse to recoil. Can it be loaded with an effective hunting load(75yds) for deer and sill be shootable by an 'old guy'

McLernon

Absolutely. I have a 425gr load that recoils about like a 30-30, is easily a 150 yard load with practice, and there's no deer in the world that could stop that boolit. You can load it down to 1000fps if you want and it still will penetrate anything smaller than a moose thru and thru. Maybe a moose too for all I know. The dirty little secret of the heavy boolits is they don't have to move fast to be effective; once they start moving, they don't stop easily.

Grizz

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 10, 2006, 05:31:44 AM »

Quote from: bighoof on December 09, 2006, 03:22:29 PM

Like my handi, but Big Blue's BC has me crying. I want my next one to look like that. Was the wood refinish.
Always wanted to see that 45-70 in slow motion, thought it was kinda neat.

You'll have to ask Don that, I don't know if it's been refinished or not, if I guessed, I'd say no other than fitting the pad.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2006, 05:34:48 AM »

For anyone that handloads the 45/70 is a dream to shoot at very low recoil , Shaner turned me on to a load that i can shoot one handed , the kick is that of a 410 plus it groups well at 100 yards .

I would use it for deer here in Ohio if the ODNR would let me . May the Handi gods not strike me down , but i may have to get a contender if 45/70 just to use this load .

It is a 405 gr. cast bullet over 12 gr. of Unique , i use the same powder charge under a 250 gr. cast in my 45 LC both are a pleasuer to shoot .

stimpy

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2006, 06:32:35 AM »

Nothing wrong with using a pistol stocked contender for them Stimpy

...but full house 45-70 loads in them are a bit much...

Mac

Markus · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2006, 06:50:45 AM »

I don't know about deer hogs and elk but I just retuned from a short sarai during which I took a 24OZ coffe cup shooting off hand at about 50 yards then cleanly harvested a 20oz diet pepsi bottle. I was using PMC cowboys loads. I have a topper deluxe stock set on it and the recoil is about like a 20ga.

Hunternz · « **Reply #23 on:** December 10, 2006, 07:25:13 PM »

Throwing heavy lead, finally got my Lee 45-70 500gr mould and cast a few from wheel weights, couldn't resist loading up one, hopefully at subsonic velocity let my kids know that a loud bang may come from the basement, 19 layers of corrugated carboard and 5" of Rimu hard wood behind, aimed pulled the trigger 10 yds away, recoil pleasant, no earmuffs, a bit of a bang, ran upstairs and asked my eldest daughter if she heard anything no, but she felt it, a couple of photos attatched,
Regards Howard.

Hunternz · « **Reply #24 on:** December 10, 2006, 07:36:24 PM »

Meant to add that the bullet traveled through the carboard and four inchs of rimu, I split the wood and the bullet had demolished itself but had made a 4" long hole through the wood, impressive, now time to load up and test for accuracy before using it on game. It should at a 100fps give me 100yd range, 2.5" highest point and 2.5" low at 100yds,
having fun with the H&R 45-70,
Regards Howard.

Headspace · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:27:10 PM »

Looks like I'll be in the minority here but I like the 500 S&W. If you want an easy shooting factory ammo try ULTRAMAX in 325gr JHP. They are rated at 1400fps in the revolver. They are easy to shoot and makes sighting in fun. Accuracy at 50 yards for my gun were 3/4". I handload some 350 gr bullets with H110, H4227 and LilGun. All very comfortable to shoot. I do have a slip on Limb Saver recoil pad. I have shot some of the Corbon 400 grainers and the recoil and the barrel flip were awesome. I use a reddot scope.

mt3030 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2006, 06:03:16 PM »

45-70. Wide assortment of factory loads, from "Springfield" level to loads that will made your eyes water! Also easy to handload for, from big heavy cast slow bullets that you can sometimes watch go down range, to hot loads that will punish you as much as your target.

Just like the 30-30, everyone needs a 45-70....or two....or three.

Grizz_ · « **Reply #27 on:** December 12, 2006, 07:12:17 AM »

Headspace,

325gr isn't a big, heavy bullet in a 45/70 or a .500 for that matter. I shoot 325s from my 44 mag handgun.

Heavy for caliber would be a bullet heavier than the "standard" 405gr, as in 45/70/405.
So a 525gr bullet is big and heavy from a 45/70.

And this is the wierd thing about the .500 S&W, and almost all of the .50s come to think of it, they are mostly 'express' setups, and shoot "light for caliber" bullets, rather than heavy for caliber.

If a .459 550gr bullet is considered heavy for caliber, the 9% larger diameter .500 should be shooting something upwards of 600gr, but I don't know if I've ever seen a bullet that heavy for a .50, while there are 45/70 bullets that exceed 600gr, and the percentage equivilent for the .50 would be 654gr. You have to go to 50 bmg to see those kind of weights.

Please don't think I am dumping on the .500 S&W, I'm not, but I am quibling about the idea of 325gr being a big heavy bullet in the context of the original question.

Regards,

Grizz

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** December 12, 2006, 08:01:27 AM »

Grizz makes a very valid point, we are talking big bores here, due to the limited case capacity of the .500S&W, heavy for caliber bullets in it limit velocity, the .45-70 is capable of well over 1800fps with 525gr loads at considerbly less pressure than that of the 500S&W, roughly 10kpsi less!! Bump the .45-70 up to Ruger level pressures and you're pushing a 500gr bullet close to .458 Win mag velocities. The 500gr XTP in Hornady's S&W load does 1546fps in a Handi, Corbon's biggest at 440gr does 1947fps. While the .500S&W offers the handgun shooter a great load, in a rifle, it's a little less favorable compared to big .50s like the .50 Alaskan which is comparable to the .45-70s heavy data due to its longer 2"+ case length which makes more room for powder when a big bullet it stuffed in it!!

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

lefty red · « **Reply #29 on:** December 12, 2006, 01:39:11 PM »

This is is a great post of info here!

I'm going to keep the 500 S&W and use some Williams Firesights.

I'm going to send the receiver off to have them fit the 32" BS barrel on it! A good receiver sight and front sight.

Add my 30/30 barrel, then I've got my "Brush Buster" set complete!

Lefty