Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?

[safetysheriff]

IMR-4064 is still used by the guys shooting .308's in long-range competition, although probably not as popular as Reloader15 and Varget.   Personally, from the reloading date i've seen, i'd use '4064' ahead of Varget any day because of the quirks so many people have seen from Varget.

as you increase your load, and your load density goes up, you'll probably get better groups, and possibly better extreme-spread and standard-deviation data from your crony.

it's very hard, in my opinion, to beat Hornady spire points for most of the hunting we do in North America.   i think you are on to some good components; but you didn't say which brand of brass you're using.   a popular brand with competition shooters is Winchester.   Federal is too soft and doesn't last long enough since the primer pockets expand on it, etc.

ss' 

[northjdr]

I'm using winchester brass. But I also have several hundred rounds of Blackhills Match Brass. Any idea as to how the Blackhills brass would shoot. Based on someones advice I have avoided the Federal Brass. I'm going to keep slowly increase the loads to see if things get tighter. I am being care about looking at the cases to check for blwn primers and other issues (which shound't be a problem at the levels I'm currently at.)

[safetysheriff]

i have never worked with Blackhills brass.    if you are getting good accuracy out of their match loads then i'd believe the brass to also be good.........since it is part of the equation.     

i'd think about using a flashhole deburring tool to remove any burrs on the inside of the brass.   other than that i'd just load it and shoot.   there is one more idea that's worth mentioning, however, since you're working with a single-shot rifle.   DON'T crimp the brass, because that oftentimes will cause a loss of accuracy.   the neck of the brass will not maintain it's shape when it is crimped and the slight change in that shape is what seemingly affects accuracy.

take care,

ss' 

[northjdr]

I don't know if anyone is around tonight but I need some help. Just when I start to get cocky I screw up. I'm trying to load 223 round for my Savage bolt action but I need some help. I can close the bolt on a loaded round but it definately closes with more resistance than normal. When I put the case in without a bullet seated it also closes with the same higher resistance. The cases are once fired Winchester (shot through the same rifle I am loading for now) were trimmed to 1.75 and I full length sized them but maybe I screwed up on the sizing beause they are a bit snug towards the base. Since I can close the bolt will these be safe to shoot if the overall lenth is within norm?  If not, do I need to resize them? Can I resize with the primers in. If not, how do I safely get the primers out? Should I have run a case or 2 into the gun before I primed them just to check it out? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[safetysheriff]

north'

i've been around, but distracted by football and ballistics on the web!

the trim to length you used is proper.  what i'd try first is bumping the die harder with the shell holder/ram.   in other words, make it a little effort (reasonable effort) to fully raise the ram and 'cam over' the toggle/handle.   this helps to push the shoulder back a little further on a cartridge.   it can be all that's needed when a bolt is difficult to close.   try this with the die being screwed down a little further in the press before looking anywhere else, i'd think.   

the brass may not be snug toward the base......... it may be just where the shoulder hits the chamber because your brass needs to be set back to a proper headspace dimension, per my paragraph above.

because you need to lube the inside of the neck as well as the outside of the brass for this 'experiment' i'd plan on removing the primers and starting over.   to do that safely you can wear eye and hearing protection while doing so after the bullets are pulled and the powder removed.    spray the cases with penetrating oil to neutralize the primers.   let them sit for a length of time before de-priming them so the penetrant can work.    however:  ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN PRIMING, CHARGING, AND BULLET SEATING, and any other time when an eye hazard is present such as potentially is true with removing 'live' primers.   

let us know,

ss'   

[northjdr]

I tightened up the die in the press (I have a Redding T-7) I was barely touching the shell holder before.  I re-ran a couple of cases through the resizer but I removed the neck spindle and was careful with the lube.  The little amount that I tighten the die did the trick. The bolt now closes like normal. So I resized all the cases w/o the neck sizer and now they fit fine with the powder loaded and bullet seated.

[northjdr]

Back from a range session with my 308 Ultra. My second batch of reloads performed great. I am working up loads for Hornady 150gr SP, Nosler 150gr BT, and Nosler 125gr BT. Very fun. Initially I have simply seated the bullets to the standard over all length. I want to fine tune this however so I resized a blank case and cut slits in the neck. I was going to use this to tell me when I was on the lands. Well, much to my surprise, I am barely touching the lands with the bullet only about 1/16" in the case. I was going to very the gap to the lands from as low as .003 to .015 to see what work best with the charges that seem the most accurate. How much of the bullet needs to be in the case?

[Sourdough]

My .308 seems to do best with IMR-3031 and 165gr bullets.  I usually use Nosler and Sierria bullets, and the 165s seem to be more accurate than the 150s.  I only use CCI 200 primers with my .308.  Just a posiability you may want to explore some day.  Rog

[usherj]

Depending on your rate of twist, 165 or 180g bullets may be worth a try as well. Match loads usually use the 168g, but I'm not sure for which twist rate (10 or 12"). Have fun experimenting. You will know when you hit the sweet spot!

[northjdr]

I appreciate the bullet and powder suggestions but it doesn't answer my question. With a single shot I am of course not concerned about bullets feeding through a magazine. Is there a minimum seating depth? Or can I seat these out as far as I can so long as I am off the lands? Secondly: Based on my range session yesterday I'm not so sure where the sweet spot is. At 100 yds On 2 successive strings in a ladder my first 2 shots were within 1/2" of each other, then on the next 3 shots the point of impact immeadiatly shifts up about 2 inches so the final 3 shots are within about 1/2" inch of each other. So do I have one 2 inch group or 2 half inch groups. I'll post pictures if I get a chance and I will not rehash all of the modifications and accurizing that I have done with my Ultra as I've already created a massive thread on those issues. (barrel bedding, lug shimming, pulling through, latch cleaning, pulling through on trigger, scope rail lapping and re-mounting, bore polishing ...), this is the third scope on the gun (started with cheap Simmons Master series which broke, then to new Nikon Monarch, then to almost new Nikon Prostaff)

[Buckskin]

MAC answered that for you above.  You should keep the diameter of the bullet as your depth in the brass (.308").

[northjdr]

You're right. Some of these threadss get a little long and even though I read everything I sometimes forget what is said previously. So it looks like with the Hornady 150 sp that iif I keep at least .308" in the neck I will still be a bit far off the lands. I do have some 165 Seirra Gamekings and they may give me more bullet to work with. Thanks again

[Mac11700]

From what your saying..it sounds as if you have one of NEF's looooooong throats. I had this problem with my 308 Survivor..My reloads weren't as accurate as the standard factory loads. I got the best results with the heavier and longer bullets I loaded. Try some of the 180 grain bullets..like the Sierra 180 grain Game King #2150...and for target work the #2220 Match King...These you should be able to reach the lands with and still have enough bullet in the neck for adequate neck tension. Usually what is recommended is at least 1 bullet diameter width in seating..but you can get by with less provided you have adequate neck tension...and you'll need a collet die to do that or the appropriate bushing if your using bushing dies to get the right amount of tension...especially if you don't have much neck in front of the boat tail...This is also why I suggested the Game King flat base.The 180's will do good on whitetail...I've seen a bunch of deer fall to them not only in the 308 but with the 30-06.They may not shoot as flat as the 165's or 150's but will anchor a whitetail just the same..

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Another option would be to use the Barnes 168gr TSX, with it loaded at the recommended ..050" off the lands, the base of the bullet is right at the neck/shouilder juncture in my .308 bull barrel. Haven't shot it yet, so you're on your own there, but it's my choice to start with.

Twist rate is 1:10" which is listed in the FAQs.

Tim

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0003530844

[usherj]

The shifting POI sounds more like a bedding issue to me. Could there be some tension in the bedding? Bedding can be tricky, one of the best tips I've found is to just barely snug the screw(s) or use surgical tubing to hold everything in place while the bedding is settin/curing. Tightening too much can build tension right in, and it will be aggravated by barrel heating. Your situation seems to be a textbook case. In the past I've bedded and rebedded, and unless you make a significant change, you will get similar (frustrating) results. Good luck. The .5" groups look very promising

[northjdr]

I try the bigger bullets as suggested. Any factory seconds on the Barnes bullets Tim?  I'll get a picture of the 2 consecutive groups with the 2" point impact shift on the 3, 4 and 5 shots but my wife took the digital camera tonight.  I can hear you saying it now I should have taken Tim's advice and just shot 2 shots or maybe 3 shots at each load. I silicone bedded the forearm but frankly I don't know if I did it right or really if it helped at all. While the silicon was curing the screw was pretty tight and I had hung about 10 lbs off the foreend. My understanding was this would possibly pretension the forend and make it less suseptable to differing forend pressure. I'd be happy to take another stab at the forend. I have read the FAQ's I am very consistant with how I approach shooting. I try to set up the same way every time. I was reading the an article that suggests nearly 30% of scopes won't hold zero. All of my scopes are Nikons and all are new in the last year. As I said earlier, I have the prostaff on now instead of the Monarch just to see if it made a difference. It didn't I was getting the same type of impact shifts with the Monarch. I do have a Buckmaster 4.5x14 that I haven't tried on the 308 but it gets to be a pain switching scopes around. I have a new 6.5 x 20 Monarch coming so perhaps I'll try that one. 

[safetysheriff]

north'

if you read the article Mac' gave us then you know that cleaning a firearm can present one with a problem of changing impact point when the barrel gets 're-fouled'.......if that's the way to say it.

i don't clean a barrel immaculately any more when i'm going hunting.   it makes for problems.   i clean it reasonably and protect the bore with a film of Hoppe's#9 mixed with Rislone Engine treatment.    but i don't expect a rifle's best accuracy if its just been scrubbed clean.

dry the bore very well before shooting, too.

let us know how it goes,

ss' 

[northjdr]

I didn't clean during my last range session of about 40 rounds. But I did clean before the session and also after. I always fire a couple fouling shots before I get stated with the groups. When I am shooting in Minnesota in the winter I probably allow 45 seconds or a minute between shots. Between strings I like to allow about 5 minutes. I check targets, write down infomation and then start again. I don't clean between my strings now. I now have about 500 rounds through my 308 Ultra. I started with a bad scope, no idea what I was doing and 4" groups. A ton of work later and with the help of my new handloads and the assembled experts here at Graybeard (legends in their own minds) 1 moa is possible. The rifle shows flashes of briliance.

[Mac11700]

northjdr:

I never put a 10lb. weight on mine when doing the RTV bedding..Here's the last one I did...and how it turned out..

This is a side view..showing how far down I taped the forend..


This is a view looking into the channel showing how much I taped it...Yup...I used 3m blue painters tape this time instead of the electrical tape.


Here's the rifle sitting up curing over night..


Here's a finished view after removing the tape.


A little better view of the same..


The whole idea is to create a even gasket bed for the barrel to help dampen any vibrations and to float the barrel evenly..remember I sanded the fore end prior to applying the RTV gasket silicone ...By hanging a weight on the end of the barrel..you didn't do this and are basically adding additional torque to the barrel...You can do just the reverse as I have done..You can add the RTV to the foreend hanger slot...and build a pressure point 1/2" in from the muzzle end of the foreend..and see if yours will respond better that way to...ala the Weatherby style..I've had a lot of luck doing the way I've shown...While not making every rifle a tack driver...most of them have responded nicely..others became extreamly consistent wither  hot or cold...first or last shot all staying inside a 1" with the loads I use..factory or handloads mind you...

Hope the better pictures help explain it a little better..

Mac

[usherj]

Mac11700, that is a very neat example of bedding. Taking your time to prep it right is key. Because rtv is so soft, I doubt it was capable of inducing that much stress, but you never know. The good news is that rtv is so easy to remove. I would suggest rebedding without any weight on the forend and giving it a try. If no improvement, try a harder bedding compound like acraglass gel (they have one gun kits) or jb weld. If you do, be sure to put modeling clay in the gap around the screw lug where it meets the barrel so you don't get locked in, and use the release agent properly (don't forget the screw). Car wax works well. A harder bedding material helps maintain the forend position on the barrel better, especially when removing and replacing.

[northjdr]

I'll re-bed it today. The weather is not favoring a range session. Thanks for the pics. I will post some pics of my current bedding job and of  the groups that drive me nuts. As you can see, the gun does show some potential.

[Mac11700]

usherj:

I've tried Acraglas in the manner you described to no avail...and it is a real pain to remove.The RTV provided much better results..clean up is a breeze..and removing it takes very little effort. I used the release agent provided with Brownells bedding kit as directed and had no problems removing the foreend after the RTV has set up and cured.It takes 2 good coats of the release agent to work properly..

northjdr:

Good luck with it...and if you get the chance to try out some of the 180 grainers I mentioned let me know how they do ..

Mac

[northjdr]

Wow, in the time it's taken me to get figure out how to post these pictures I could have bedded it already. Well here's a photo of my previous bedding and those madding groups I was talking about. All groups at 100 yds. Groups 1 and 2 were with Hornady 150gr sp. Groups #4 and 6 were Nosler BT 150 gr. The common thread amoung all the groups was that the POI shifted up after 2 shots. The wierd thing about group #4 is that the 5th shot was back down. I had no called fliers. #4 looks pretty good if you just take 2 shots at a time. Same with #1.

[quickdtoo]

I'd be more inclined to think the POI change was more related to latch engagement if it's a vertical change. Are you closing the action forcefully each and every time?

Tim

[northjdr]

one more try to get the group photos


Yes I am closing and cleaning the latch forcefully. I even speak sternly to it at times. However, I will not that my new handloads did require a forceful closing or it would lock. I had no pop opens on my shots.

[northjdr]

Yet another try with the groups

[northjdr]

Sorry, I'm trying to do too much. I was trying to say that with my handloads I had to close it forcefully or it would not lock. I don't think I had my sizing dies as snug as at needed to be. But nothing pooped open and the latch is squeeky clean.

[northjdr]

Ah, nothing "popped" open.

[quickdtoo]

If all the cases were too long, the latch engagement wouldn't be the same each time depending on closing pressure since there's no way for it to be identical each time when you need to compress the case within the chamber, the extra sizng of the cases after the die adjustement may very well fix the POI issue. I wouldn't change anything, just try where you were with the newly resized cases and shoot for groups again.

Tim

[northjdr]

I've already prepared more loads around the charges that produced the tightest groups. I resized these more carefully and they all fit and close without undue pressure. I have also seated the bullets closer to the lands. I don't know exactly how far I am but I know I'm not on them as I could barely reach the lands with my test bullet nearly completely out of the neck.  I've only left about .25" in the case neck on the Hornady 150 sp. I simply ran out of bullet to work with. I was able to seat the Nosler's deeper in the neck but they also have boattails. I'll keep you posted