Author Topic: What do you all think about the 270????  (Read 3420 times)

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Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2006, 06:31:26 PM »
Mac, I am sorry about this new discovery. I know you wanted to hunt Deer with your new 270, but
now we know it is woefully inadaquate. I believe a logical out for you is to sell it to me for half price!

We have some dang healthy Coyotes, but if I use 150gr. Partitions, I just might obtain decent penetration.

Just let me know!  ;D

Sorry nomo...I appreciate the offer...but I think I'll hang onto it for awhile...I'm working up some of the original screw type 130 grain Partition varmint loads for these big chipmunks we have here in Mo......and some of the 160 original screw type as well...for those larger PD's OK has :D :D :D :D :D..

Mac
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Offline Fred M

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2006, 06:38:32 PM »
Anyone that thinks the .270 isn't a good deer caliber has to be either ignorant or a bad shot and shouldn't be allowed in the woods with any caliber!

Tim that is right.
My neighbor lost three Elk in three years shooting a 270. He brings over the gun for me to check.  I test fired it and it shot ok.

So I told him to learn how to shoot and use a proper bullet for elk not the poor crap he was using and get close not shooting at 400yards with a 130gr bullet.

He has since bought a bigger rifle. When I hunted elk I used a 300 Wby with 200gr Bitterroot bullets.

I never owned a 270 and I don't like one, but a well placed shot with a 270 will take an elk any day with a good bullet, and drop him on the spot. Never mind looking for him all over the mountain.

I have some very good reasons why I don't like a 270. As a multy rifle owner the 270 never fitted my arsenal. To small for big stuff, and too big for small stuff in case you wanted to know. That is why it is an odd ball for me.

The one rifle senario never turned my crank, but if I had to do with one rifle it would not be a 270.

Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2006, 06:57:01 PM »
Fred, everyone has their favorite, the .270 is one such caliber for a lot of hunters.

Tim

                                                                       
Quote
.270 Winchester
When the exterior ballistics and track record on big game of this one are compared to that of its competition, it becomes embarrassingly evident that we haven't evolved very far in mountain rifle cartridge development since Winchester unveiled the .270 in 1925. Introduced in the Model 54 and later available in the Model 70, every rifle maker who is anybody now offers the .270 Winchester in a bewildering variety of bolt actions, single shots, slide actions, and autoloaders.

Only the .30-06 is more popular than the .270 Winchester among big game hunters, a state of affairs that does not take a genius to figure out. The .270 Winchester offers superb accuracy in good bolt action rifles, a flat trajectory, and good long range punch, all at a level of recoil tolerable by all but the most inexperienced shooters. The longest running debate among fans of the .270 is which bullet weight is best for shooting big game. Probably, those who advocate the 130 grain bullet for game up to the size of mule deer and the 150 grain bullet for bigger stuff have the stronger argument.

An outstanding but often overlooked bullet for shooting elk, moose, and heavier African antelope with the .270 is the Nosler 160 grain Partition loaded to about 2800 fps in a 22" barrel. When it comes to powders, the .270 Winchester and H4831 go together like vanilla ice cream and apple pie. Some .270 fans prefer H4350 and IMR-4350 for high velocity loads and IMR-4064 or H380 for excellent accuracy at lower velocities. For an accurate varmint load, try H380 or IMR-4064 behind a 100 or 110 grain bullet.

Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/270w.html

http://www.fishandhunttexas.com/270_winchester.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6x6.htm

http://www.wildgoose.com/hunt9.htm






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Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2006, 07:15:38 PM »

Quote
So I told him to learn how to shoot and use a proper bullet for elk not the poor crap he was using and get close not shooting at 400yards with a 130gr bullet.

Good Grief... :o :o :o...some folks just don't get it...no wonder he lost the elk...

The 270 has always had a special place in my heart...and was one of 3 of my dear departed fathers favorites...He never used it for a varmint gun...but once he saw a coyote I dropped at well over 450 yards...he understood why I liked it for such...His philosophy..was a simple one...Use the right bullet...He used the same 3 for the 270...and the 270 Weatherby...130 grain Nosler Partition for whitetails...150 grain partition for Mule deer...160 grain partition for anything larger...and those three will work great...then...as well as now...It's hard to knock what has worked for so many folks since the twenties...Load these 3 up to the max for your rifle...and see how close they group to one another...you'll be amazed...just as most other folks who have done so are the first time doing it...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2006, 03:26:46 AM »
Target identification + adequate cartridge w/proper projectile + proper bullet placement = humane harvest, whats not to understand....<><.... :)

I like Fred do not have a .270 and have no need for one. I also believe set up properly and with a properly executed shot it is a very capable deer round....<><.... :)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline bubby24

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2006, 07:51:43 AM »
I just bought a .270 this year.  I love it.  i have shot three white tail with it, one was a nice 8 pt. Two of the three dropped where they stood, the other ran about 30 yards.
This is my first Handi.  i will own more that is for sure.
I think every person has a favorite caliber and will argue all day about it.  Does it really matter? As londg as we really like it?

Offline CallaoJoe

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2006, 09:45:31 AM »
I have, and love both the .270 & the 30-06.  I kinda favor the 30-06, but not by much.  The .270's are pretty versatile and can be used for varmits up to Elk....

BTW...  I've shot at 11 deer with my .270 since I bought it in 2001.  11 shots, 11 deer found within 50 yds are so.  Some shots were close, some at 150 - 200 yds.  If you lost 4 out of 5 deer....  It's not the rifles/caliber's fault.
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with me. I said, "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright

Offline mattparliament

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2006, 09:51:03 AM »
Love the 270 and have taken 3 antelope, 2 muleys, and 1 whitetail with it.  All with handloads tailored to the event.  4 dropped in their tracks, the other 2 got only a step or two.  Also, my 270 is quite accurate and a tight shooter with whatever I've thrown down the tube.  I picked up a 35 whelen barrel for the elk and bear, not that the 270 couldn't do it, I just wanted something that hit harder.  My $.02
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne

Offline dw06

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2006, 01:01:02 PM »
Its mainly going to be used for deer hunting and plinking but i wanted to know how your 270's shoot...

Thanks

           Buckmaster

Not going to get into the silly arguments,I like the 06 better,but I have reloaded for a hunting friends 270 for years,have been with him shooting targets,groundhogs,whitetail deer,and mule deer.From what I've seen the 270 is a fine overall cartridge.Hard to beat really.So anyone that can't kill deer with a 270 no need to go any bigger cause if you can't shoot a 270 you can't shoot any better with a bigger gun!I'd say go for it Buckmaster,and learn to shoot it and never look back.
If you find yourself in a hole,the first thing to do is stop digging-Will Rogers

Offline Fred M

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2006, 03:02:34 PM »
Quote.

.So anyone that can kill deer with a 270 does not need to go any bigger

I like that, because including this years five deer for a total of 29 animals with 32 shots with my little "25 Hunter" and 100gr bullets, the misses are caused by hitting grass or twigs. I consider this rifle more than adequate  for deer and Antelope.

I never lost an animal nor did I wound one with this rifle. So is the 257 Roberts and the 25-06. I even dropped a moose last year with the 257Roberts. These three are my favorite deer getters. No I don't think they are suitable for everybody. Bigger is always better for game.

This year for the first time in years I shot one WT deer with a 375 Win Ruger #3.
The reason I toke this rifle was because I was supposed shoot a deer from a stand in the woods, but that did not hapened To cold to sit in a stand at -24C.

So you see, different terrains calls for a different and suitable rifles. Having three or four different loads for one rifle, for different game is not my idea of a suitable/reliable system. One load for one rifle is the way to go, then you know where you are shooting at. It is hard enough to find one good load for a rifle.

The wishful thought that the 270 shoots different bullets/loads to the same point of impact is simply phantacy, pure luck and highly supect. Even with the stiffest and most precision barrels it does not happened by virtue with three loads,   only sheer luck will do it.

Of course the same point of impact could mean  a one foot circle at XXX yards, good enough to wound an animal.

Swampman, you don't need to back up my theory, but thanks anyway. We know you don't like the 270. Myselve I have nothing against the 270,  I simply have no use for it in spite of all its virtues.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Indian Creek 1

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2006, 04:32:31 PM »
Quote
As a multy rifle owner the 270 never fitted my arsenal. To small for big stuff, and too big for small stuff in case you wanted to know. That is why it is an odd ball for me.

Quote
I never lost an animal nor did I wound one with this rifle. So is the 257 Roberts and the 25-06. I even dropped a moose last year with the 257Roberts. These three are my favorite deer getters. No I don't think they are suitable for everybody. Bigger is always better for game.

Fred, that sure cleared that up.  ??? :o ;D

Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2006, 08:17:13 PM »
Quote
The wishful thought that the 270 shoots different bullets/loads to the same point of impact is simply phantacy, pure luck and highly supect. Even with the stiffest and most precision barrels it does not happened by virtue with three loads,   only sheer luck will do it.

I see your at it again Fred...this coming from someone who has never owned a 270...Go back and see what I wrote before lipping off about it would ya...I said
Quote
.Load these 3 up to the max for your rifle...and see how close they group to one another...you'll be amazed...just as most other folks who have done so are the first time doing it...

As you can clearly see...I never said they would shoot to the same impact point...but they will be damn close we are talking a few inches between the wieghts...not feet......Phallacy...hardly...Pure luck...nope it's very repeatable...Suspect?? You said this..
Quote
I never owned a 270 and I don't like one
..Suspect ??...That's real funny...this coming from someone who has never owned one...or even liked the cartridge....It  is a well known fact about the 270...but of course since you haven't owned one...you really wouldn't know...after all to you it's an oddball cartridge..Most folks are amazed at how close the 3 Noslers are to one another...provided they can shoot...and their rifle isn't screwed up...I'm not talking about different manufactures of bullets either...nor mixed powders/primers/cases either...but these 3 bullets loaded to the max for ones rifle...Call the bullet manufactures Fred...and ask them...

Quote
To small for big stuff, and too big for small stuff in case you wanted to know. That is why it is an odd ball for me.
.

I've killed a bunch of coyotes at long range with this cartridge...from the 90 grain Sierra's/Speer TNT's...to using a 140 grain SPBT on them as well......and many a time my Father busted woodchucks from 250-400 yards with his...and not to mention all the mule deer and Elk he took too...The Winchester 270 is one of the premire cartridges here in the USA...and has been since it came out...I'm real sorry you don't feel that way...but it is a fact...not a work of fiction...It is suitable for long range varminting...to taking on Elk sized animals worldwide...Granted it may a bit much for shooting hundreds of rounds at a Prarie dog shoot...but for popping varmints waaaaaaay out there it works superbly...just as it does for some of the largest game on this continent and a lot of big game on others...Ask most folks that have owned and hunted with them...provided of course they can shoot good to begin with...and not blowing off legs of the animals they are hunting...While you may believe in 1 load per rifle...many others don't...nor do some have that option...With the 270...it is a viable multitasking cartridge...from the smallest critter...to some of the largest...one just has to pick the right bullet for the job at hand...

Mac
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Offline Indian Creek 1

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2006, 03:02:44 AM »
Quote
This year for the first time in years I shot one WT deer with a 375 Win Ruger #3.
The reason I toke this rifle was because I was supposed shoot a deer from a stand in the woods,

And if you shoot elk from a stand in the woods will you be using an RPG???????? :o

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2006, 07:29:28 AM »
For anyone interested in SD and BC differences between .277" and .308" bullets, here's a comparison of same weight bullets in both calibers in the same or similar bullet styles. Note the .308" Hornady bullet is a boat tail compared to the the flat base of the .277", but the .308" still lags in SD and BC by a bunch! You can click the bullets for the source at Midway, then click "Technical Specifications and Use" for the SD and BC.

Tim

.308"
Hornady InterLock Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 150 Grain BoatTail Spire Point Boat
Sectional Density: .226
Ballistic Coefficient: .349


Nosler Partition Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 150 Grain Spitzer
Sectional density: .226
Ballistic coefficient: .387



.277"
Hornady InterLock Bullets 270 Caliber (277 Diameter) 150 Grain Spire Point
Sectional Density: .279
Ballistic Coefficient: .462


Nosler Partition Bullets 270 Caliber (277 Diameter) 150 Grain Spitzer
Sectional density: .279
Ballistic coefficient: .465
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2006, 08:27:41 AM »
Indian Creek 1

And if you shoot elk from a stand in the woods will you be using an RPG?

I  don't know what RPG means, if you want to know something better spell it out instead of writing in riddles. That way you wont waste either yours or my time.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2006, 09:26:42 AM »
Fred, perhaps Indian Creek 1 doesn't know what a .375 Winchester is,  an RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade which isn't normally discussed as a sporting arm.

Tim

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=79
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Indian Creek 1

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2006, 11:00:39 AM »
Quickdtoo  I'm pretty much up on most cartridges and calibers including lever gun rounds. I don't think I've forgotten much since i  closed the gunshop . I was kinda joking with Fred about that since he said bigger was better altho he has taken a moose with a 257 Roberts.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2006, 11:37:40 AM »
IC1, I figured you were joking, but a lot of younger folks only know of the .375 H&H and have never heard of a .375W. No offense, but as a newbie, I give you the benefit of doubt. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Indian Creek 1

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »
No offense taken Tim , my wife is always saying I'm in my second childhood anyway. LOL

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2006, 12:09:02 PM »
Your wife too, eh...mine as well!!! :D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline myarmor

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2006, 01:13:56 PM »
I personally was never a 270 fan untill I ended up with one and started handloading for it. It's not a Handi, but a Model 70. Honestly I only bought the gun to pirate the action and use it for a future project, that was untill I started shooting it. It has had it's challenges, but it's been a lot of fun. And it's funny how close a POI with varying grain of bullet can be in it with good loads. I still believe the 280 and -06 are a bit more versitile, but the 270 is just as capable. If you want one, and are interested, I say go for it.
I know I will buy a 270 barrel for my Handi when I get a chance.

-Aaron

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2006, 03:29:17 AM »
I see no reason to choose the .270 over the .30-06.  You are giving up a lot, and getting nothing in return.

.270 Winchester:         flatter trajectory,    less recoil,    bullets with sectional density all the way up .336 (180 gr' Barnes which would approx' a 221 gr' bullet in the .30 caliber),     significantly greater velocities for same/similar sectional densitites,     80 years worth of development spent on its bullets,    usually one of the first calibers to come out in a new firearm or ammunition ( along with the .30-06).   April 2002 NRA's "American Hunter":  page 40:  Johnson's Brown Bear Kills (diary) show only two 'Brownies' killed by the .270.............but both were one-shot kills !   one shot while charging a guide who was on a caribou hunt.     world-wide distribution of ammunition for this caliber?     full-metal jacket (cheap!) bullets available.     loaded to a higher maximum working pressure than SAAMI allows for the .30-06.

.30-06 Springfield:      100 years worth of development spent on its bullets,    match-grade bullets in abundance,     commonly-available firearms and ammunition,       wider range of bullet weights available,    wider range of sectional densities available in these bullets (if you go up to the 250 gr' bullets in the .30 caliber),     world-wide distribution of ammunition in this caliber?      full-metal jacket (cheap!) bullets available.     

considering what some of the reloading mfr's are saying about the .270 being applicable for ALL North American game except Brown Bears (charging the hunter...) in close proximity.........i'll take the .270 Winchester.

i bought my first .270 to "help" a friend who decided to buy a left-handed Ruger in 7 mm Rem' Mag'.    i really didn't want that caliber!     now it would be my favorite for most of the long-range / dangerous game hunting i'd ever plan on doing.

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2006, 11:59:11 AM »
".........i'll take the .270 Winchester."

I'm glad, because I wouldn't have one....period!

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2006, 12:59:11 PM »
".........i'll take the .270 Winchester."

I'm glad, because I wouldn't have one....period!


that reply demonstrates a well-founded grasp of the esoterica in both hunting and ballistics ! :o :o :o

Not !

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2006, 01:03:58 PM »
I freely admit I have a deep seated an illogical hatered for the .270 Winchester.  I cannot understand it's popularity nor why it was ever invented except to sell folks something already had in the .30-06.  Don't want one ever....period!

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2006, 01:20:47 PM »
if you are ever bitten by the 'curiousity bug' i can recommend you try the 7 mm Remington Magnum which is also a real hammer..........just as the .30-06 seemingly impresses you.    and i agree that the .30-06 can be made into a hammer!    but so, too, were the handloads i put together for my friend's Ruger.    even with its heavy, laminated stock it was punishing, however, with a very sharp, strong recoil.    it hurt to shoot that rifle off the bench!

so.........i'd say there's hope for you since you admit to an "illogical hatred" of the .270.    but you've got to go just one step more to see......as I finally learned......that a caliber i/you  don't want just might work out very well for me/you.

take care, swampman,

ss'   



Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline mt3030

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2006, 03:15:27 PM »
I freely admit I have a deep seated an illogical hatered for the .270 Winchester.  I cannot understand it's popularity nor why it was ever invented except to sell folks something already had in the .30-06.  Don't want one ever....period!
Also from Swampnam:
1) I see no reason to choose the .270 over the .30-06. You are giving up a lot, and getting nothing in return.

2) Me too, and I have no use for it. The .30-06 is a much better choice.

3)Jack was quite the salesman. The only reason the .270 is still being loaded as a commerical cartridge is because Jack a great salesman. They are never very accurate in my experience, and they aren't nealy as versitile as the .30-06.

4) I base my opinions on 30+ years of being in the field, and watching the performance of the .270 on the range. There is a rack full of used .270s at the local gun shop. I'd buy several of them if they were another caliber. Rebarreling them to a useful caliber is too expensive. At least with the .270 Handi you can sell the barrel on eBay and get something in the .30+ range for deer hunting. The .270 is really to big for varmits. I'll never own one.

5) ".........i'll take the .270 Winchester."
I'm glad, because I wouldn't have one....period!

Do you have anything original to say? You just keep repeating yourself, kind of like on the 30-40 over the 303. Come on, contribute to the conversation with something new, if you can.
Great Falls, Montana
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Ducks Unlimited

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Swampman

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2006, 03:30:00 PM »
Ok, I'd take a .30-40 Krag over any rimless cartridge in the Handi.

Offline Fred M

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2006, 06:01:01 PM »
Saftysheriff.
Quote.
that reply demonstrates a well-founded grasp of the esoterica in both hunting and ballistics !

I don't think the 270 was designed and to be only understood  by the specially initiated. Though you might put it that way, because it is a specialized caliber and was never ment to be an all purpose rifle, me thinks.

So it has had quite a following but it has never set the world on fire in sales. It is no better or worse than any other specialized cartridge. Like 7x64 it was suppoed to duplicate, but nobody in Europe or Africa was taken in by it. Like the 270 Wby if that was all Wby had to offer he be broke long ago. The 300 is his bread and butter gun.

The paid mouth piece of Winchester, Jack O Conner did most of the promoting. He was also an excetional good shot and that makes a big difference in shooting a 270 to it full potential. Anybody can blow his horn when you get tuned custom grade guns and ammo for free.

I am not a 270 fan and never owned on,  but if a nice #1 came along I might be tempted even though I have no use for it. Well this has been a good thread even though there were not many origional thoughts if any. Good to pass the time.
Even managed to get  Mac all riled up.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the 270????
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2006, 07:23:41 PM »
Saftysheriff.
Quote.
that reply demonstrates a well-founded grasp of the esoterica in both hunting and ballistics !

I don't think the 270 was designed and to be only understood  by the specially initiated. Though you might put it that way, because it is a specialized caliber and was never ment to be an all purpose rifle, me thinks.

So it has had quite a following but it has never set the world on fire in sales. It is no better or worse than any other specialized cartridge. Like 7x64 it was suppoed to duplicate, but nobody in Europe or Africa was taken in by it. Like the 270 Wby if that was all Wby had to offer he be broke long ago. The 300 is his bread and butter gun.

The paid mouth piece of Winchester, Jack O Conner did most of the promoting. He was also an excetional good shot and that makes a big difference in shooting a 270 to it full potential. Anybody can blow his horn when you get tuned custom grade guns and ammo for free.

I am not a 270 fan and never owned on,  but if a nice #1 came along I might be tempted even though I have no use for it. Well this has been a good thread even though there were not many origional thoughts if any. Good to pass the time.
Even managed to get  Mac all riled up.

Sorry Fred...Your dead wrong...on all accounts...If you would have ever taken the time to use the cartridge...you might hold it in a higher light...and know the qualities of it..Same goes for Swampman...It's not a specialized cartridge...It never started off as a specialized cartridge...and it will never be a specialized cartridge...What it is a multi-purpose cartride...varmint to African plains game...How the heck is that specialized...Special yes...but specialized no....and to try to equate it to the 7x64 is pure nuts...

Perhaps you might want to actually read about the cartridge...Why not follow the links Quick was nice enough to post for everyone...you might have actual learned something...like this...
Quote
Only the .30-06 is more popular than the .270 Winchester among big game hunters, a state of affairs that does not take a genius to figure out. The .270 Winchester offers superb accuracy in good bolt action rifles, a flat trajectory, and good long range punch, all at a level of recoil tolerable by all but the most inexperienced shooters. The longest running debate among fans of the .270 is which bullet weight is best for shooting big game. Probably, those who advocate the 130 grain bullet for game up to the size of mule deer and the 150 grain bullet for bigger stuff have the stronger argument.
...Second only to the 30-06...hmmm...sounds like flames to me...

Jack O'Conner might have taken money from Winchester for hawking their products...but tell me...Why do you have to portray it is such a manner to bad mouth the man...? How many other gun writers have been pimping one manufacures product over another...? This isn't nothing new...or a ground shaking event...Jack was a prolific writer...and wrote about many cartridges...Is it his fault that the model 70 was the absolute best one could get during his life time? You make it sound like all he ever got was fully blown custom guns from them...Well...Guess what...from the stories of his I have read...he's never stated that was the case...Are you privy to imformation to show otherwise?

You may think that you have me riled up...but...you really don't...I've dealt with your type sintiment before...and it's nothing new to me...


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...