Author Topic: drum and nipple question (Read 1469 times)

rebel dunn · « **on:** August 24, 2006, 06:19:49 PM »

I have a Traditons Pioneer rifle and I have taken upon myself to butcher it.I bought a GM barrel in 50 caliber that has the fast twist! in 28. I was reading on the long range muzzleloader site that it is dangerous to use the drum and nipple configuration because of the higher pressures (ie blowing it out)I have tested it out using 200 grains of 777 and a powerbelt bullet (In a vise with a long string), I'd like to know if anyone else here builds muzzleloaders and their opinons about this setup before I put it to my shoulder and fire it . I had planned to use less than 100gr or less of fffg goex and either a powerbelt or a Lee R E A L bullet ay help would be greatlt appreciated. Thanks, Rebel

lostid · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2006, 11:07:20 PM »

Quote from: rebel dunn on August 24, 2006, 06:19:49 PM

I have a Traditons Pioneer rifle and I have taken upon myself to butcher it.

(?)

dodd3 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2006, 01:05:40 AM »

rebel dunn the green mountain barrels are made from 1137 grade steel, you could have a drum made out of the same steel if you are not sure about the avaidable drums. whot sort of loads are ypu intending to use.
bernie

rebel dunn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:22:12 AM »

Lostlid . It was a joke. I redid the stock and rebarrelled it .To someone else it probably would look like I butchered it.Dodd3,Iam planning on using 100 grains or less of fffg goex ,I used 777 to proof it because it is supposedly a hotter, higher pressure powder.I bought the drum from track of the wolf so I figure it is strong enough.The question is, Is it going to strip the threads and blow out using a 350 grain or so bullet ?I didn't know whether to change it to a bolster or not. I know a bolster would be stronger but will the drum do or is the pressure too high to use this configuration with 100 grains of powder and a heavier conical bullet?Thanks,Rebel

captchee · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:34:58 AM »

rebel , if you did the drum correctly and the threads are tight ,it will be as solid as an improved or snail breech .
At your stated normal loads you should be more then fine .
I will say a double load is no proof that a system will hold time and time again .
If your still concerned watch for leakage around the drum base as well as hammer blow back .. Either of these two are early warning signs of a problem accruing. .
You might consider even inspection the threads of the drum now and then for BP contamination .
don’t believe that the modern equivalents like T7 and pyro ar not corrosive .
In most case they are more so the BP but instead of being acidic they draw moister once fired . So its still very important to keep the threads clean .

rebel dunn · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:50:55 AM »

Thanks. I know pyrodex is corrosive because that is what I used in the original pioneer barrel.I bought the regular flint type breech plug and milled the tang into a hook for the original tang.when I drilled the drim hole it ran inot the forward end of the plug so the drum has threads holding the entire length.I was just concerned because i had read about the drum problems on the long range muzzleloader website .

dodd3 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2006, 06:11:37 AM »

rebel dunn go to traditions web site go muzzeloaders, scrol down to sidelocks click on the 50 cal hawkin woodsman ,you will see just under the specs for the gun a pdf format for the owners manual,click on that and scroll till you see recomended and max loads for there trad guns you will be quite suprised at the max loads also read the text under the loads about conical bullets and the loads for them this will give you a good idea as to a safe load for your gun.a niple and drum is stronger than most people think.ps there guns are niple and drum.
bernie

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com

crow_feather · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2006, 07:50:55 AM »

Don't worry about it. If it blows, it will only hit the guy next to you. Just stand next to guys you don't like. (also a joke)

C F

rebel dunn · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2006, 10:46:52 AM »

crowfeather

.Dodd3 ,I went to chuckhawks and read the article by Randy Wakeman and it doesn't give me much confidence in Traditions product he says they dont proof the barrels very good .But that is beside the point as I have a green mountain barrel.

captchee · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2006, 11:14:11 AM »

all imported barrel have to pass proof for import to the US.
while that proof is low It is still more then adequate , they work very well .

IMO wakeman was knights poster boy . Now he is for savage. flip flopping opinions quicker then a politician . dont take what he has to say any stronger then Toby bridges for their word goes to the highest bidder . Both switch opinions depending on who pays them . i believe that if either had to back up what they print with their pocket book most likely you wouldn’t hear another peep from them

green mountain are good barrels as well but the thing to remember is they do not have to pass "any" standards of proof beyond the companies proof .
i have used a number of their barrels as well as Colerain , Getz and rice. Were these barrels run into big differences is in the boring rifling and finish work . The average occasional shooter IMO would be hard pressed to tell the difference
We have no proofing houses in the US and no standards of proof beyond what a company feels is adequate .
don’t fall for walkmans bla bla.
Consider all the 100’s of thousands of Spanish and American barrels used by CVA , Junker , Ultra high and others . Then consider 300 years of soft iron barrels made in this country when folks depended on the weapons for their lives
Pretty good record in comparison
Walkmans comments IMO are nothing more then trying to secure a price range and get more people to buy the products he represents

crow_feather · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2006, 12:26:55 PM »

captchee,
I knew you were an intellegent person, just didn't know how smart till I read the above

C F

captchee · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2006, 02:16:43 PM »

ahhh dang did i miss spell something again ?

rebel dunn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:44:15 PM »

Thanks for the help .I never thought about green mountan barrels not having to proof their barrels.Like I said , I heard about the drum thing on the long range ml forum ,and they are pretty particular.

captchee · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:49:35 PM »

now i didnt say that green mountian didnt proof their barrels.

what i said is there is no standard of proof beyound those set by each company as we" the US" have no goverment standerd of proof for BP weapons

rebel dunn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2006, 06:07:09 PM »

Sorry, I mis read

. I must be tired.I really do appreciate you guys helping me .I asked the same question on the trad.muzzleloading forum on the gun builders bench and only got one reply.And he was more worried about the thin wrist of my rifle.

dodd3 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2006, 12:37:31 AM »

rebel dunn said[ crowfeather Grin.Dodd3 ,I went to chuckhawks and read the article by Randy Wakeman and it doesn't give me much confidence in Traditions product he says they dont proof the barrels very good .But that is beside the point as I have.] spain like italy have to have every gun proofed before it is sold,if you can lay your hands on the lyman blasck powder hand book first edition in the back
there is a sction on the proof test for spain and italy and outher countrys.
bernie

captchee · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2006, 03:38:54 AM »

Quote from: rebel dunn on August 25, 2006, 06:07:09 PM

Sorry, I mis read . I must be tired.I really do appreciate you guys helping me .I asked the same question on the trad.muzzleloading forum on the gun builders bench and only got one reply.And he was more worried about the thin wrist of my rifle.

dont confuse the traditional muzzleloading forum "claudes place " just a forum .
with the traditional muzzle loading association forum which is part of an association for the support and shooting of traditional muzzleloaders of a pre 1900 design .
there are allot of very qualified builders that post on the TMA forum from all around the world .
post your question there and i know you will get alot of answers as well .

Another good spot would be the American long rifle association .

Fi you look into this subject long enough I think you will find that really this issue with the drum bolster is much the same as that of the flint liner . Some folks have some very strong feelings about both , their reasoning very logical . However when one considers the design , how long its been around you find failures are very small to not existent when dealing with rifles that have been properly built and maintained

dodd3 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2006, 02:56:24 PM »

well said captchee. bernie

rebel dunn · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2006, 06:32:27 PM »

Captchee, it was claude's forum I posted on .I'll have to check out the others .I would try the longe range muzzleloader forum but they are kinda picky about the off topic post and my gun would not be considered long range.

captchee · « **Reply #19 on:** August 27, 2006, 03:57:49 AM »

i will say that neither of the forums i listed
Traditional Muzzle loading Association
American long rifle Association
Will be willing to discuss your modern weapon . I would have to point you to one of the modern muzzleloading forums for that . I have never gone to the one here on grey beards so I cant say what its like . I do however post on hunt America in their muzzleloading section now that the we “ the members” of the two muzzleloading forums have gotten things cleaned up over there .
While the two above association don’t discuss modern Inline weapons they will discuss those traditional inlines ignition muzzleloaders and with the TMA any muzzleloader designed before 1900 .
The both get a little picky if subject come about concerning shooting say sabots and sub caliber conical in traditional weapons but you will find , at least with the TMA any way there is no bashing of modern weapons they simply are not discussed on their site . You will however not be left hanging as they have a policy of referral. What this means id that if someone has a question that cant seem to get answered the members will do their best to point you to a location that may better or be more qualified to get you the information you need be it a person or even another forum like gray beards here .. The forum is a very polite place and while disagreement is welcome fighting is not.
Neither Associations I believe require membership in their association to use their forum
Hope that helps you some

rebel dunn · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2006, 08:07:56 AM »

my gun is a sidelock ,I don't understand how it would be considered a modern weapon when a t/c renegade is considered a traditonal weapon. In the first post i called it a Pioneer I was mistakem it is a Frontier.

captchee · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2006, 12:42:48 PM »

sorry reb i got you mixed with another post . the long rifle association is a group of custom builders and smiths .
The TMA forum all traditional framed weapons are welcome , TC, Cva and traditions all welcome . Sorry for the confusion

rebel dunn · « **Reply #22 on:** August 27, 2006, 02:48:26 PM »

That's ok I get it all te time

wheelgun · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2006, 02:02:15 AM »

Quote from: rebel dunn on August 25, 2006, 10:46:52 AM

crowfeather .Dodd3 ,I went to chuckhawks and read the article by Randy Wakeman and it doesn't give me much confidence in Traditions product he says they dont proof the barrels very good .But that is beside the point as I have a green mountain barrel.

Everything I have read about Wakeman was pretty one sided.The gun he was shooting at the time was the best and everybody else's was junk. Thats just his opinion and nothing else.I remember some pictures of the savage rifle blown into several pieces.