Author Topic: Where are all the Deer ! (Read 1255 times)

WildBill · « **on:** December 04, 2003, 02:16:32 PM »

Well another year here in New York with a pocket full of tags an not enough deer to stick in your you know what. I sure am glad I got some meat with my bow. I 'm sure that some guys will write in and tell me there is all kinds of deer here in Alleghany Co. here in the great state of New York . I have hunted here all my life and the deer population sucks. To all of those that think I'm nuts cuz your seeing all kinds of deer ,I glad you have a good place to hunt ,enjoy it now cuz if the State and the Insurance Companys have there way deer will be wiped out completely.I really don't see the need to give out 4 doe tags Plus what you can take with your bow and muzzleloader.Who in hell needs 7or8 deer for meat don't you think this has gone to far. By the way I never laid eyes on a deer an never left my stand at all the first day of gun season. I am not the only one not seeing deer ,and many of my friend not seeing deer are very good hunters, Just my 2 :shock: :shock: cents!

bobg · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2003, 02:47:19 PM »

Wildbill, i agree with you 100%. I don't think there are half as many deer as NYS would like us to think there are. I haven't seen so much as a tail this year.

myronman3 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2003, 03:39:25 PM »

we are in the same boat here in wisconsin. i too suspect insurance companys have bought key people in the government. who else would benefit from a depleted herd? too bad to hear we are not the only ones with that problem. :cry:

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2003, 04:10:56 AM »

I don't know about that fellas. I see the tracks, I see the rubs, I see the crummy weather that has kept them down, I have seen a late, if possibly non-existent rut, and I think this is just onna dem danged years.

However, I just might agree with you on the extra doe tags. In Schenectady County Encon issued doe tags to everybody who didn't get one through the point system but again, the weather has basically kept things very quiet. I would expect that after the snow this weekend we might see some activity, just in time for the end of the shotgun/pistol season and the last week of muzzle loading.

WildBill, I understand how you feel. There have been some years where all I have seen is tails going way out of range and I always wonder if the population is either going down or the State and the Insurance Companies have banded together to reduce the population to prevent whitetail/auto accidents. But, a buddy knows the Encon Commish and she says there is no such agreement. You might see something like this under the table in the NYC/LI area but nothing 'sanctioned' anywhere. I think this year it is just our year to luck out. Dang, and I was getting hungry for bambiburger, too. Mikey.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:50:20 AM »

I shore don't know nuttin bout hunting in NY but here in Bama THE HEART OF DIXIE where we're supposed to have so many deer ya can close yer eyes and just shoot and hit one according to some I see deer on fewer days per season than I go and don't see them. This in spite of the liberal season limits that would allow me well over 100 deer per season if I could see and shoot them.

I've been four times so far. Saw a flag the first day. Shot a pair the second time. Saw a spike that the land owner won't allow shot on third trip and saw a couple squirrels and a flock of turkeys on the last trip. Lotsa folks have already killed more than I've seen total.

I'd not get too frustrated if you don't see a deer on a single trip. Down here I often have to go several times before I see one. Just remember ya can't kill them if you aren't out there where they are.

GB

michbob · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2003, 10:43:52 AM »

Uh-oh. :shock: I just read in my alumni magazine from Central Michigan University that a car insurance company contracted with some of the University's wildlife biologists to "study" ways to lower the incidence of car-deer crashes.....

myronman3 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2003, 12:04:54 PM »

i spend quite a bit of time in the woods; unfortunatly not always hunting(my job is outside, often in back country places). i get more time than most folks would believe. in the last three years is when the dnr has gone nuts over the exploding deer population. i can tell you they just aint there like they say they are. god i wish they were. i cant say for sure that insurance companies are the driving force; as we did have a cwd scare here in the last few years. what i can tell you is that the deer population isnt anywhere near what they say it is. and seeeing as how i hate insurance companies anyway; i might as well put the blame for this squarely on their shoulders (they have to be good for something, why not scapegoats?)

in all reality i cant honestly rule them out, either.

J.Solo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2003, 01:07:56 PM »

Saw 14, shot at three, took one. The majority were seen on opening day down around Short Track N.Y. The one taken was taken just outside of Attica N.Y. two weeks into hunting season.

I believe there are more deer killed by automobiles in one year in the Amherst/Tonawanda Creek area of Western N.Y. than are killed during hunting season (in Western N.Y.) No hunting is allowed in this area so the deer are in everyon's back yard and on the highways.

This is the last full weekend of Big Game Hunting in New York State and ends tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Then it's Black Powder Hunting.

I feel I have seen more deer this season than in many years past but I have heard more hunters complain of not seeing any deer than hunters that are talking about seeing them and having shots.

Still time - Good Luck to all - J.Solo

freddogs · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2003, 04:23:37 AM »

I'm hunting here in Wisconsin.I know the DNR says there are lots of deer. In some places there are. I hunt all over the state. Parts of certain zones have a lot of deer. The area I hunted this year I saw about 12 deer. A lot of factors enter into what you see. Area you have access to, Are your neighbors baiting or is anyone hunting next to you. If no one is hunting next to you why should the deer come to where you are. Maybe you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some areas don't have that many deer, they don't spread out evenly.Things I have done to see more deer are; try different areas, spend more time hunting, look for food source, try thick or almost inaccessable areas. There are plenty of deer in Wisconsin but they aren't evenly distributed. I think baiting and small chunks of posted private land cause less deer to be seen.

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:27:01 AM »

yeah i do all that. and i know that sometimes you just have to do without. i would agree whole-heartedly on the baiting and pockets of deer on private land. i really did well up until the dnr started with the t zone statewide about 3 years ago. the deer hunting has gone to hell in the last three years.
where abouts in wisconsin are ya?

myronman3 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:30:50 AM »

yeah i do all that. and i know that sometimes you just have to do without. i would agree whole-heartedly on the baiting and pockets of deer on private land. i really did well up until the dnr started with the t zone statewide about 3 years ago. the deer hunting has gone to hell in the last three years.
where abouts in wisconsin are ya?

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:34:47 AM »

deleted

jim38ny · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2003, 03:42:32 PM »

Here in Oneida County it suck too, and if you do see deer tracks, there are coyote tracks right behind them. I work the the state, and am quite sure the insureance companys have lobbyed heavy on getting the population down. hey, new york can't do anything else right, so why should we think they could manage a deer heard (if we even have one) Like the Andirondak Park "FOREVER WILD" the canopy is so thick that their isnt enough undergrowth to support much of a deer population. what we need is some of that money from sportsman to go into selective logging/burns etc to increase the herd up north. and the big insurance companies arent having the car deer problems in the andirondaks that occur down south. I know the Thuway Authority pick up deer carcusses daily. they are here, not in numbers the state would like you to think their is, but they are on private farms/land and everything around here is posted heavily

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2003, 09:52:41 AM »

I live and hunt in Wisconsin. And I can vouch for the lackluster season - in a way. Many folk's I've talked with haven't seen many this season. But the total registered were up there in the mediocre ball park.

Sometimes standing in one spot all season is precisely the reason you don't see many deer. When our crew does drives I frequently volunteer to do the walking because the drivers see as many deer as the standers and they stay warm to boot. Sure, you may not get a shot at the running deer, but if you see enough you will.

Now, as for deer numbers in Wisconsin. It could be a variety of factors. The T-zone gives the deer a "warning" weekend. So the deer are educated by opening weekend in some areas.

Also, you may have a unit that has 1/2 private land and 1/2 public land. Well when the game managers set the quota they set it for the entire unit. The privately owned 1/2 may harbor all the deer. But, and because, the publicly owned 1/2 harbors most of the hunters. In this case the hunters don't see many deer and the deer don't see many hunters.

It ain't the insurance companies. They don't give a rip if more claims are being made for car-deer collisions. If it's a long-term trend they just hike up the premiums to cover the costs. If they would succeed in reducing the collisions they would only appreciate profits for a short while before competition would drive the premiums back down.

And lastly - the deer aren't going to go extinct in one or two years from overhunting. Think about it. Back in the 80's the game managers started issueing doe-tags in unprecedented numbers. Immediately the annual kills jumped into the 300,000's. We've been getting kills between 200,000 and 500,000 almost every year for almost 20 years (2003 included).

If the state herd is estimated at 1.2 million, and hunters kill 300,000 per year, the deer should be long gone within 4 years.

How can you explain sustained kills of 300,000 for 20 years with a population estimated between 1 and 1.5 million over that time period?

myronman3 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 15, 2003, 02:37:08 PM »

well, as i stated before; i dont doubt the deer are in pockets of private land. i do dispute the numbers that the dnr claims. like i said, i spend a ton of time in deer country and am constantly looking,and in the last few years, the number of deer i have seen has gone way down. and i have friends all over the state. antigo, marinette, rice lake, lacrosse, westby, and dodgeville areas. everyone agrees that it is the same story in their area. this isnt "i heard form him, who heard from him..." these are my dear freinds and everyone an accomplished hunter. so i do stand by my statements, i think the dnr has inflated their numbers and they have beyond a doubt jammed up deer hunting here for years to come.

willis5 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2003, 02:02:14 AM »

last week saw 30 with two bucks in the mix... I shot high (18ft up at 7 yards and forgot to compensate for the angle.) the next time my buddy went to the same spot, he saw nada

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #16 on:** December 16, 2003, 05:36:54 AM »

Myronman,

Which numbers do you dispute? The total estimated herd in the state? Or the estimates for particular areas?

Or do you just not think that they should be issuing the number of tags given the amount of deer in a particular unit?

The managers do their best to manage the herd per local needs and interests. In some areas, there are lots of farmers complaining about crop damage. The DNR would love to severely reduce the numbers in those areas.

However, in other areas of the state there is mostly forest, which is extremely popular for hunting. The DNR tends to manage for higher densities there.

Not to mention, that you may be correct. The DNR's numbers may be off. They have been in the past and they have admitted to it.

Even IF the DNR's estimates are off on a particular year, it won't be the deathknell to deer hunting. Like I pointed out, we've been wiping out about 1/4 of the total population per year and we've been maintaining that for 20 years.

Back in 1996 we had a harsh winter. The following deer season, 1997, they got real stingy on the antlerless permits. By the 1998 season things were back in full swing.

Quote

i think the dnr has inflated their numbers

Perhaps true. Either inflated or erred on the high side.

Quote

they have beyond a doubt jammed up deer hunting here for years to come.

This is completely off-base. I will wager you that, provided the 2003-2004 winter is mild, we will have another season next year with statewide kills far exceeding 200,000 deer. And this will continue as long as the mild winters continue.

The only thing jammed up about deer hunting is the overcrowded southern public land. 2003 just was one of those years.

Finally, don't get caught up with comparing current seasons with those of the 90's. Wisconsin broke a lot of kill records in those years, but the aim in much of the state was to actually reduce the herd. Once it has been reduced, you can expect the kill numbers to level off a bit.

Here's a link to a table summarizing the statewide kills from 1966 through 2001.

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/hunt/deer/histharv.htm

myronman3 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2003, 02:51:36 PM »

i dispute alot of their numbers. i dont have the time now to go into it in depth. but as you and i agree that depending on the type of the land (public or private) the numbers and amount of deer are quite different. so part of my complaint is that the system they use doesnt do squat to lower the pop. on private land. what happens is the public land gets pounded into the ground; while the areas that have the higher concentration of deer remain virtually untouched. but i dont pretend to have all the answers; but from personal observations i am concerned. and might i add not so much for myself; but for the future of hunting. i consider myself a conservationalist before a hunter/fisherman. i believe in giving more than you take from mom nature.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2003, 09:50:41 AM »

How to you blame the DNR for the public land/private land population problems? If this is essentially what is ruining hunting I don't think you can blame the DNR.

Unless you know of a better method that should be used.

freddogs · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2003, 10:24:59 AM »

It sounds like you are both right. I agree with Black Jaque that you can't blame the DNR for everything. I don't know if there is an answer to the private/public land problem. I've seen some of the areas I hunt seem to have lower populations. Still it's in a t-zone. My friends that still hunt there didn't see much this year. The DNR could be way off in some areas. Around where I live I believe the population varies from 10 to 50 deer per square mile depending on which area of the zone you look at. I don't think we are shooting the deer to extinction. Many of the management practices the
DNR would like to impliment are defeated at the Conservation Congress. Go to the meeting and vent maybe they can explain how they count.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2003, 10:33:05 AM »

Good point Freddogs! Go to the Conservation Congress meetings - I'll see you there.

Raging480 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2003, 11:04:57 AM »

I don't know, guys, I spent a lot of time hunting this year, in several different locations, and there was a ton of sign. If there is a decrease in population, its in the number of hunters that take to the woods. You don't hear the shooting that you used to, and that means that the deer are not forced to move around as much. Give the deer a little credit, they may be smarter than you think, and they may be there, you just don't know it.
When I talk to Old Timers, er, umm, I mean, distinguished seasoned hunters, I see a lot of the same thing, they do not want to shoot does, because, 1. that is where the bucks "come from", or 2. "When you kill a doe you are killing 3 deer." But many of today's hunters will gladly kill multiple bucks, using tags bought by people who have no intention of hunting. This practice is not only illegal in NY, but contributes to the horrible buck:doe ratio that NY has. Kill a doe legally, instead of "buck hogging", is what I say. And save some of them bullets for a coyote, I think they are getting a lot of fawns.
The hunting is not like it was years ago. The deer have adapted to different areas like gardens, parks and golf courses, instead of the mountains where our fathers hunted them. I think the 500 feet from a building rule should be changed for bow hunting, so we can deal with our urbanized deer herd.
Sorry if this became a rant, but I'm glad to have it off my chest.

myronman3 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2003, 11:10:34 AM »

i blame the dnr because they are the ones coming up with the rules on how, where, and how many. they need to take into consideration that there are differences in populations between public and private land. the system in use doesnt consider that.
and as far as conservation congress meetings; not only do i go when ever possible, i am close friends with one of the reps.
i payed quite a bit of $ in the years i have been hunting; i view it as paying for conservation. when i dont agree with the way they are using that $ i will give voice to it.
i have killed alot of deer since i started hunting and quite a few big ones (without bait), so i know how to hunt. when i have 3 years running that i hardly see any deer while hunting or working; something is way wrong. do i think the herd is in danger of extinction. certainly not. have i enjoyed myself much at all in the last three years while hunting? not as much as usual. a guy likes to see a deer once in a while when hunting. and i dont want my kids to spend day after day without ever seeing a deer while hunting. i want them to have fun, view wildlife, learn to love hunting, and maybe even have a chance at an animal once in a while.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #23 on:** December 18, 2003, 04:53:21 AM »

Actually the DNR is limited in how they can tweak the system.

They can't just act unilaterally.

Sometimes showing up to Conservation Congress meetings isn't enough.

Perhaps, you/we should come up with a better plan. Then drum up some supporters then get a bunch of people to push for it at the C C meetings.

If you are interested, I would be more than happy to start a thread discussing possible solutions to the "problems". Perhaps in a different category though.

Any of you Wisconsin deer hunters, feel free to send me a private message.

coltfan · « **Reply #24 on:** December 18, 2003, 03:35:35 PM »

I'm a little pressed for time but just saw this post and wanted to let you guys know that this same lack of deer is appearing here in PA. I had a good year hunting archery in the suburbs (took a buck and a doe)but didn't see a tail when I went to the "big woods" of the Pocono mountains, and was surprised but the minimal amount of shooting on opening day of rifle season.

As I said, I'm pressed for time and need to get going but you may want to pop in at HuntingPA.com, this was a pretty hot topic there.