257 Weatherby in Vanguard

[lgm270]

The latest NRA Am Rifleman has an article on the sub MOA Vanguard and one of the chambering is the .257 Wb'y.  Anybody have any experience with this round? Any thoughts about it?  I'd be using it for western Mule Deer hunting.  

Does anyone but Wetherby make brass for this caliber?  Weatherby brass is scarce and expensive.

[Lone Star]

I've used the .257 Wby for years, it is my premier long range deer/antelope cartridge (I have two rifles, a Mk V and a custom Ruger #1).  I use 100-grain X bullets (I've used all the X variants) with IMR7828 or RL22 powder for muzzle velocities around 3600 fps.  It is possible to exceed these speeds with some lots of brass but why bother?  Lots of guys like the 115-120-grain bullets, but the reputation of the round was made with the high velocity 100s and for deer there is no advantage to the heavy bullets IMO.  Make certain that you use stout bullets of whatever weight or you will not be happy with the results.

Weatherby brass is not the only kind, but really - how many cases do you need?  Rifles like the .257 are not shot 100 rounds in an afternoon - barrels last a long time as long as they are not overheated, but they burn out fast otherwise (just like any small-bore large case does).  I've used Weatherby, Norma and PMC (by far the best), and I also formed cases from Remington 7mm Weatherby brass.  If you do the latter, check the loaded neck diameter to make sure the necks are not too think; if they are then you'll have excessive pressures.

[Lawdog]

lgm270,

I have been shooting the .257 Weatherby Magnum since the mid 1960’s.  For western Mule Deer you will have to go a long way to find a better cartridge.  Flat shooting, hard hitting and deadly accurate make for a combination that’s hard to beat.  My current .257 Weatherby is a Mark V Deluxe but I have already contacted our local sporting goods store and told them I was going to take the Vanguard Sporter in .257 Weatherby they have there.  Will pick it up Friday or Saturday.  Knew this rifle was going to follow me home.

Weatherby brass can get expensive but there are ways of saving money.  Use other belted magnum brass(you would be surprised at the number of .257 Weatherby cartridges I have shot that had different cartridge names/calibers on the head(.300 H&H, 7mm Rem. Mag., etc.)).  You can also get Hornady Belted Magnum Case Basic Family for $34.57 per 50 and use these.  Best bet is to check Ebay and purchase brass there.  The last batch I bought was $26.52(not including shipping) for 100 one time fired brass and when it arrived there were 112 cases in the box along with a box of 97 Hornady 117 SP bullets.  It pays to check around.  Lawdog
 

[Graybeard]

Had one. It didn't even remotely live up to the accuracy guarantee. This rifle clearly had a major bedding problem. Yeah I suppose I could have sent it back and they "might" would have fixed it.

BUT I have my doubts. They gave me a test target supposedly shot with this rifle. No way the rifle that fired that group had a bedding problem. But the one I bought did.

My opinion is that they do one of two things when firing the test targets.

1. They might use the same rifle to fire all the test groups that they already know shoots tight groups and they just put the SN of other guns on those targets. This is what I honestly believe happens.

2. Or alternately they might fire them from a machine rest fixture minus the stock. That could account for the group fired by the action but minus the stock. Then when the stock is in place it's never fired again and the bedding problem resulted.

All I know for sure is it's the last Weatherby I'll ever own. I have no doubt I was defrauded on the deal. That rifle as purchased did not fire the group on the target sent with it. No way. No how.

I'll stick to Remingtons. They make quality guns and back them with quality customer service.

[Weatherby223]

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your Weatherby GrayBeard! I have nothing but praise for mine. I purchased mine when they first came on the market (Maybe Weatherby gave a crap then?) I only purchased this rifle as a hack gun for spotlighting in our very dusty country but ended up liking it so much i now use it during the daylight hours also..I too love Remington's but could not see the worth in ruining an expensive Rifle and for the price i paid, i could not go past the Weatherby...

[Lone Star]

My most recent .257 is a MkV Accumark, four years old.  I got no "test target" with mine, but it will shoot almost every decent handload to 1 moa or less (3-shot groups).    It is a large rifle but I certainly can't complain about the groups - I never fired factory ammo in it, perhaps that would not shoot as well.

My #1 will agg between 0.6 and 0.7 moa, again 3-shot groups.  But it has a Jarrett barrel and has a lot of accuracy tuning on it.  And it has no long Weatherby freebore.  I would normally have to be extra sure not to interchange ammo, but the #1 chamber is so tight that cases fired in the Weatherby won't fit when sized with my dies.  

[Lawdog]

I'll stick to Remingtons. They make quality guns and back them with quality customer service.

 :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  

Sorry, the Devil made me do it.  Graybeards experience is one bad out of thousands of good reports.  Lawdog
 

[2ndtimer]

My opinion is that they do one of two things when firing the test targets.

1. They might use the same rifle to fire all the test groups that they already know shoots tight groups and they just put the SN of other guns on those targets. This is what I honestly believe happens.

2. Or alternately they might fire them from a machine rest fixture minus the stock. That could account for the group fired by the action but minus the stock. Then when the stock is in place it's never fired again and the bedding problem resulted.

According to posts on another forum, option No. 2 is correct.  Supposedly they clamp the action into a machine rest and test fire it and include the target with barreled action.  Then they slap a stock on and ship it, target included.  Perhaps they actually test fire the MOA models since they claim to pillar bed those in an upgraded synthetic stock (which has to be better than the plastic Butler Creek stock that came on my Howa 1500 Lightning)
At any rate, my Howa also shot very poorly until I replaced the plastic with a Boyd's laminated JRS wooden stock and glass bedded the recoil lug.

[Lawdog]

My opinion is that they do one of two things when firing the test targets.

1. They might use the same rifle to fire all the test groups that they already know shoots tight groups and they just put the SN of other guns on those targets. This is what I honestly believe happens.

2. Or alternately they might fire them from a machine rest fixture minus the stock. That could account for the group fired by the action but minus the stock. Then when the stock is in place it's never fired again and the bedding problem resulted.

According to posts on another forum, option No. 2 is correct.  Supposedly they clamp the action into a machine rest and test fire it and include the target with barreled action.  Then they slap a stock on and ship it, target included.  Perhaps they actually test fire the MOA models since they claim to pillar bed those in an upgraded synthetic stock (which has to be better than the plastic Butler Creek stock that came on my Howa 1500 Lightning)
At any rate, my Howa also shot very poorly until I replaced the plastic with a Boyd's laminated JRS wooden stock and glass bedded the recoil lug.

No option #2 is wrong.  The targets are shot with complete rifles.  Don't care what they say on other forums or here.  If you want why not write and ask Weatherby?  I have asked what should a person do if the rifle they bought doesn't match the target or meet the guarantee?  the following is their answer;

All Weatherby (Mark V® and Vanguard®) rifles are guaranteed to shoot a 1 1/2" (or better) 3-shot group at 100 yards from a cold barrel when used with Weatherby factory ammunition. For Weatherby rifles chambered in non-Weatherby calibers, the guarantee is effective when premium loads are used. All Weatherby® Vanguard rifles come with a factory-shot, 3-shot target as your assurance of accuracy. If for some reason your rifle does not shoot within the guarantee, Weatherby advises you to send the rifle to a Weatherby-authorized service center. After being tested by the service center, if indeed it does not shoot within the guarantee and the rifle has not been altered, the service center will repair the rifle under warranty, or forward it to the factory for inspection and replacement approval, if deemed necessary.

[/b]

And Weatherby will stand by this guarantee.

Graybeard,

Yeah I suppose I could have sent it back and they "might" would have fixed it.

BUT I have my doubts.

But because you didn't adhere to guarantee directions you don't know what would have happened.  If you had followed guarantee directions and Weatherby fixed or replaced that rifle(basically making the rifle match or beat the supplied target), what would your remarks be now?

Weatherby would have either fixed or replaced that rifle.  Every Weatherby rifle I own and those owned by others I know all shoot better than the guarantee of 1 1/2”.  I know of two Weatherby rifles that didn’t equal the guarantee and Weatherby fixed one and sent a new rifle to replace the other.  All shipping charges were reimbursed and Weatherby included a coupon for a free box of Weatherby ammo with the rifles.  I'll let you knopw how the Vanguard Sporter(in .257 Weatherby) I picked up this morning shoots after the scope arrives and I get to the range.  Lawdog
 

[Graybeard]

Don't claim great experience with Whby. rifles as not a lot seem to be sold around here. I had to special order this one. But I'm familiar with a few locally owned that I've shot or seen shot. Not one yet met the factory claim.

So yeah Lawdog it's kinda like your personal experience with the Remingtons.

[Lawdog]

Don't claim great experience with Whby. rifles as not a lot seem to be sold around here. I had to special order this one. But I'm familiar with a few locally owned that I've shot or seen shot. Not one yet met the factory claim.

So yeah Lawdog it's kinda like your personal experience with the Remingtons.

Not really, ole fearless leader.   :toast:   I, at least, got in touch with Remington and followed their directions, TWICE.  They had their chance and dropped the ball.  If it would have been Weatherby they would have had another rifle off to me in the one incident and would have restocked the rifle with a new stock in the other.  You never gave Weatherby a chance to make good on that Vanguard.  And that’s the real difference isn’t it?  Lawdog
 

[2ndtimer]

I find your comments regarding the Weatherby Vanguard interesting.  My rifle is a Howa which makes no guarantee of any kind regarding accuracy, but for all intents and purposes is identical to the Vanguard, save for the 2" shorter barrel and availability in calibers that Weatherby chooses not to offer.
I was disappointed with the Howa's accuracy out of the box, and have never before had to resort to replacing a stock to get acceptable groups with my handloads.  That includes multiple rifles and calibers from Savage, Winchester and Ruger.  I have never owned a Remington, but may some day if they decide to offer the .260 in the new SPS.  Maybe I just got a bad Howa, but I have read multiple reports recently of unhappy Vanguard and Howa owners that purchased the Butler Creek stocked rifles.  That is not to say that there may also be legions of happy owners, as well.  What kind of turnaround time did your friends experience with Weatherby when they returned their rifles?  I have heard a number of horror stories regarding what Remington, Winchester and Ruger consider to be "within specification" for accuracy.  (Like 4" 3 shot groups at 100 yards!)  Obviously, an accuracy guarantee like that certainly would cut down on warranty work!

[Lone Star]

Since Weatherby offers a specific accuracy guarantee on their Vanguard SUB-MOA line (this rifle is the subject of the thread afterall) I wouldn't expect to see the "Ruger" accuracy standard applied by Weatherby.  Here is what Weatherby has to say:

"Because we factory-shoot every Vanguard rifle, we know that a number of exceptionally accurate Vanguards are produced each year,” said Brad Ruddell, Weatherby’s vice president of sales and marketing. “Armed with this knowledge, we decided to take Vanguard’s accuracy guarantee to the next level. We hand-pick factory test-fired targets with a maximum of .75 inch MOA so we can be certain of our .99 inch or less MOA guarantee. To help achieve this standard, the Vanguard SUB-MOA utilizes a 24-inch barreled action pillar bed to the latest in stock technology. If you’re looking for an affordable hunting rifle with tack-driving accuracy, this is it.”

Is your Howa rifle pillar bedded in a quality stock?  If not, how can you say it is identical to the Vanguard?  Answer - you cannot.   :wink:

[jro45]

When I first got my 257 WBY and it still does shoot the same bullets threw the same holes at 100yds. I don't think you can ask for more then that.

[Graybeard]

You never gave Weatherby a chance to make good on that Vanguard. And that’s the real difference isn’t it? Lawdog

Yup, reckon I have to agree with that.

[Lawdog]

2ndtimer,

My rifle is a Howa which makes no guarantee of any kind regarding accuracy, but for all intents and purposes is identical to the Vanguard, save for the 2" shorter barrel and availability in calibers that Weatherby chooses not to offer.

When I picked up my Vanguard Sporter yesterday morning I compared it to a Howa that was in the store.  Removed the stocks and in no way are they the same rifle.  The Vanguard is built to Weatherby specifications and while Howa may incorporate some of these ideas into their rifles(with Weatherby’s permission - most likely part of the contract agreement) you can tell the difference between them.  Lawdog
 

[lancer1558]

I checked Hornady's website and it shows brass only for the 300 Weatherby Mag, not  257 Weatherby or other Weatherby calibers among its brass offerings.
Lawdog, can you help us with which brass your order from Hornady? 257 Weatherby? Can 300 Weatherby Mag be resized to 257 Weatherby? (Obviously, my experience with handloading ammunition is limited).
Any recommendation for bullet weights for the Weatherby 257 from just plinking to varmint shooting to deer size animals?
I checked Kings Ammo and they now offer reloaded ammunition in lots as small as 100 rounds which is a change from their offerings of reloaded ammunition just a few months ago.
Has anyone had any experience with Kings? I think I may give them a try.
I am not affiliated in anyway with King's ammo.
Thanks,
Gary

[The Sodbuster]

Lawdog wrote:

("You would be surprised at the number of .257 Weatherby cartridges I have shot that had different cartridge names/calibers on the head (.300 H&H, 7mm Rem. Mag., etc.))

Lawdog I have some 7mm Rem mag I picked up at the range and thought might have some use for trading.  Can I run it into my .257 Wby full length sizer die?

[Lawdog]

I checked Hornady's website and it shows brass only for the 300 Weatherby Mag, not  257 Weatherby or other Weatherby calibers among its brass offerings.
Lawdog, can you help us with which brass your order from Hornady? 257 Weatherby? Can 300 Weatherby Mag be resized to 257 Weatherby? (Obviously, my experience with handloading ammunition is limited).

For the Hornady Belted Magnum Case Basic Family(it's a gernic belted case) go to http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=ab19a89b95deb5d4b0e04e59bf07e3eb and scroll down to where it says BELTED MAG CASE BASIC FAMILY, item number #8798.  You can use .300 Weatherby cases along with .300 H&H and most other standard belted magnum cases.  Just make sure the case is long enough.  

Any recommendation for bullet weights for the Weatherby 257 from just plinking to varmint shooting to deer size animals?

In my .257 Weatherby I really don't load bullets lighter than 100 gr., even for plinking.  Right now for hunting deer size critters I am loading 100 gr. Barnes TSX and for larger animals I m using the 115 gr. Barnes TSX.  For plinking I use the cheapest bullets I can get my hands on, usually off Ebay.  For plinking cut back on the powder charge to .25-06 levels, makes for more fun shooting.  I have never purchased anything from Kings but maybe others here can help you.  If I can help you with load information drop me a PM and I'll be glad to help.  Lawdog
 

[Lawdog]

The Sodbuster,

Lawdog I have some 7mm Rem mag I picked up at the range and thought might have some use for trading. Can I run it into my .257 Wby full length sizer die?

I have although it's a bit shorter than the .257 Weatherby(0.05" if I remember right).  After fire forming and a loading or two it will trim down to standard .257 Weatherby length(2.549").  Lawdog
 

[Lone Star]

An easier route is to buy .270 or 7mm Weatherby brass from Midway if you can't find .257 itself.  I've found it to be easier and less wasteful to form these to .257 than larger cases - and it needs no trimming.   Not as cheap as Hornady, but far easier to do with fewer lost cases too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7381&categorystring=9315***652***670***9013***

[2ndtimer]

2ndtimer,

My rifle is a Howa which makes no guarantee of any kind regarding accuracy, but for all intents and purposes is identical to the Vanguard, save for the 2" shorter barrel and availability in calibers that Weatherby chooses not to offer.

When I picked up my Vanguard Sporter yesterday morning I compared it to a Howa that was in the store.  Removed the stocks and in no way are they the same rifle.  The Vanguard is built to Weatherby specifications and while Howa may incorporate some of these ideas into their rifles(with Weatherby’s permission - most likely part of the contract agreement) you can tell the difference between them.  Lawdog
 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I will admit to having not examined a Weatherby Vanguard up close, but if the barreled actions aren't identical, why do the stockmakers list replacement stocks for the Vanguard/Howa 1500 as being one and the same?  I am sure the new MOA Vanguards are very different with their unique synthetic stock and dual pillar bedding.  And I hope the regular Vanguards are bedded better than my Howa.  I am just skeptical, since both economy models come with what I am convinced is the same Butler Creek plastic stock, which on my Howa was simply screwed onto the action and shot very poorly.  Graybeard's out of the box experience with his Vanguard seemed eerily similar to mine.  But I too am aware of more positive reports than negative with both the Howas and the Vanguards.  I just wish mine could have been one of them.  By the time I replaced the stock and spent countless hours (and dollars on components) I could have bought a CZ-550 or Tikka and would have come out ahead on the deal.  And next time, I probably will.
 :gulp:

[Squeeze]

I own several Tikkas, and Savage rifles, and have had sub MOA accuracy
out of all of these rifles.  A couple of years ago I won a Howa 1500,
in 300 WSM.  I started load development, for this rifle, with 165 gr.
Nosler Partitions, and Barnes 165 gr. XBT XLC bullets.  Since I like
synthetic stocks for hunting conditions, I purchased a Butler Creek
stock, to replace an average looking walnut stock.  The gun
did not shoot noticiably different from the wood stock to the
synthetic stock.  And this Butler Creek stock seemed well made,
with some kind of fiber looking material embedded in the plastic.
At the range, the Nosler Partitions were tough to get under 1.5 MOA,
with any load combination I tried.  The Barnes XBT XLC bullets,
on the other hand were consistently just under 1 MOA, with the
best group at .625 MOA.  I have a bunch of 168 gr. Barnes TSX
loads to test next, but if I never get anything shooting better
than the Barnes XBT XLC bullets, I am sure I will be happy with
the Howa.  I suspect there will be an improvement with the
TSX loads, if this tracks with other chamberings, that I have
tried TSX bullets in.

As for the trigger, I was able to get mine adjusted down to
about 2 lbs, with very little creep.  It took a couple of efforts,
to get both adjustments just right for the lightest pull force,
and the minimal travel.  I burnished the mating surfaces
with Moly grease, and that really smoothed things out,
as well.

My one Howa experience would not stop me from buying
another Howa, if I got an exceptional deal on one, in a
chambering that I really wanted.  Although I usually look to
Tikka first, and then Savage, for my rifle purchases.  Remington
lost me as a loyal customer a few years back.  

Squeeze

[Lawdog]

2ndtimer,

My rifle is a Howa which makes no guarantee of any kind regarding accuracy, but for all intents and purposes is identical to the Vanguard, save for the 2" shorter barrel and availability in calibers that Weatherby chooses not to offer.

When I picked up my Vanguard Sporter yesterday morning I compared it to a Howa that was in the store.  Removed the stocks and in no way are they the same rifle.  The Vanguard is built to Weatherby specifications and while Howa may incorporate some of these ideas into their rifles(with Weatherby’s permission - most likely part of the contract agreement) you can tell the difference between them.  Lawdog
 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I will admit to having not examined a Weatherby Vanguard up close, but if the barreled actions aren't identical, why do the stockmakers list replacement stocks for the Vanguard/Howa 1500 as being one and the same?  I am sure the new MOA Vanguards are very different with their unique synthetic stock and dual pillar bedding.  And I hope the regular Vanguards are bedded better than my Howa.  I am just skeptical, since both economy models come with what I am convinced is the same Butler Creek plastic stock, which on my Howa was simply screwed onto the action and shot very poorly.  Graybeard's out of the box experience with his Vanguard seemed eerily similar to mine.  But I too am aware of more positive reports than negative with both the Howas and the Vanguards.  I just wish mine could have been one of them.  By the time I replaced the stock and spent countless hours (and dollars on components) I could have bought a CZ-550 or Tikka and would have come out ahead on the deal.  And next time, I probably will.
 :gulp:

I wouldn't own or have in my house a "toy"(synthetic/plastic) stocked rifle.  Doesn’t matter what the make or model.  If I were to win one in a drawing or contest it wouldn’t come home but go straight to the store for trading material.  Had a stainless/synthetic POS once and never again.  I don’t know about stocks interchanging.  What I said is that you remove the stocks and compare the two and there is a difference.  Yes they look very similar but there are differences.  And remember that the Vanguard action was designed by Roy Weatherby.  Lawdog
 

[R.W.Dale]

The stocks WILL interchange between the Howa and the Vanguard. I have a factory synthetic stock for both models here and they would interchange. The only diffrences between the 2 actions is the bolt shroud and the bolt on the vanguard has flutes cut into it in order to make it look more like a Mark V.

[R.W.Dale]

2ndtimer,

My rifle is a Howa which makes no guarantee of any kind regarding accuracy, but for all intents and purposes is identical to the Vanguard, save for the 2" shorter barrel and availability in calibers that Weatherby chooses not to offer.

When I picked up my Vanguard Sporter yesterday morning I compared it to a Howa that was in the store.  Removed the stocks and in no way are they the same rifle.  The Vanguard is built to Weatherby specifications and while Howa may incorporate some of these ideas into their rifles(with Weatherby’s permission - most likely part of the contract agreement) you can tell the difference between them.  Lawdog
 

 Actually the Howa M1500 has been around for quite a bit longer than the Vanguard, I may be mistaken but I believe they were first sold as a Mossberg Model 1500 back in the 80's then they were sold under the S&W name in the 90's again as a M1500. Then came the Howa Lightning and finally the Vanguard contract guns.
 Now i have heard that the vanguards have diffrent barrels than the M1500's do I can't prrove it but that is what I've heard. Of the 2 factory synthetic stocks I mentioned above the Howa stock actually says Butler creek in the barrel channel the vanguard stock does not. BUT the inlets on the two stocks appear to be Identical.In fact they appear to have been molded on the same machine.

[2ndtimer]

2ndtimer wrote:
Quote:
My opinion is that they do one of two things when firing the test targets.

1. They might use the same rifle to fire all the test groups that they already know shoots tight groups and they just put the SN of other guns on those targets. This is what I honestly believe happens.

2. Or alternately they might fire them from a machine rest fixture minus the stock. That could account for the group fired by the action but minus the stock. Then when the stock is in place it's never fired again and the bedding problem resulted.


According to posts on another forum, option No. 2 is correct. Supposedly they clamp the action into a machine rest and test fire it and include the target with barreled action. Then they slap a stock on and ship it, target included. Perhaps they actually test fire the MOA models since they claim to pillar bed those in an upgraded synthetic stock (which has to be better than the plastic Butler Creek stock that came on my Howa 1500 Lightning)
At any rate, my Howa also shot very poorly until I replaced the plastic with a Boyd's laminated JRS wooden stock and glass bedded the recoil lug.

Lawdog wrote:
"No option #2 is wrong. The targets are shot with complete rifles. Don't care what they say on other forums or here. If you want why not write and ask Weatherby? I have asked what should a person do if the rifle they bought doesn't match the target or meet the guarantee? the following is their answer;

Quote:
All Weatherby (Mark V® and Vanguard®) rifles are guaranteed to shoot a 1 1/2" (or better) 3-shot group at 100 yards from a cold barrel when used with Weatherby factory ammunition. For Weatherby rifles chambered in non-Weatherby calibers, the guarantee is effective when premium loads are used. All Weatherby® Vanguard rifles come with a factory-shot, 3-shot target as your assurance of accuracy. If for some reason your rifle does not shoot within the guarantee, Weatherby advises you to send the rifle to a Weatherby-authorized service center. After being tested by the service center, if indeed it does not shoot within the guarantee and the rifle has not been altered, the service center will repair the rifle under warranty, or forward it to the factory for inspection and replacement approval, if deemed necessary.


And Weatherby will stand by this guarantee."



Not trying to "beat a dead horse", Lawdog, but I did find out where I had heard about the Weatherby Vanguards/Howas being fired in a fixture for accuracy:  The September 2005 issue of The American Rifleman, where on Page 66 it says and I quote:  
"Each Vanguard is fired at the factory for accuracy, and a test target is included with the gun  when it comes into Weatherby in Atascadero, Calif.  That's how the firm knows each gun that comes in will meet its 100-yd., 3 shot, 1½" group guarantee.  The guns are fired out of a fixture at Howa and are imported as barreled actions.  Weatherby then supplies the stocks...."
It sure sounds like the guns are indeed test fired from a fixed rest, sans stock, and that is the target included with the finished product.  Unless, of course, you want to argue with Mark A. Keefe IV, Editor in Chief of The American Rifleman.  Who knows, maybe he is full of it, but I kind of think he would have sufficient connections to obtain accurate information.  
Sorry to go on and on, but I really believed that I had heard it from a reputable source, and now believe it is true.  Still doesn't mean that most Vanguard/Howas aren't good accurate rifles, but does imply that the difference between them would be small, indeed.