Author Topic: Standard Velocity Or Magnum Velocity For Big Game Hunting  (Read 2099 times)

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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2005, 02:03:38 PM »
Graybeard, when using a bow you know as well as others, you are limited in your range. I don't know how many times while bow hunting, I had to watch a nice buck just walk away because there was no way I could stock too within bow range in the wide open. But that is just a part of bow hunting we all live with. Now had it been gun season and that happen, I would of reached out and touched him.  :D

Gun hunting does not make you less of a hunter, I do both gun and bow and I get something different from both.
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Offline Ramrod

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Re: Standard Velocity Or Magnum Velocity For Big Game Huntin
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2005, 02:28:48 PM »
Quote from: Lawdog
Standard Velocity = under 2,900 fps.
Magnum Velocity = over 2,900 fps.

 :D

My .375 H&H pushes a  a 270 grain bullet to 2700 fps, and a 300 grain bullet to only 2550 fps, so I guess it is not a magnum.
On the other hand, my .223 pushes 45 grain JPH's out at 3600 fps, so by this logic, it is definatly in the magnum class. And yet Lawdog does not like .22 centerfires for deer. This can get pretty rediculous.
The bottom line is, any standard big cartridge made for bolt action rifles ( 6.5mm up to .30-06 or so), is good for at least 300 yards on anything you care to kill in North America. If you can't get closer than 200 or 250 yards, you should probably leave the critter for a better hunter.
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Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2005, 03:43:47 PM »
Ok Greybeard, I'll try to splain it to ya.......

The ballistic coeffencient of a flatnose 30 caliber, 35 caliber etc, is much lower than a spire point etc.  the flatnose bullets fired at a lower velocity loose velocity much faster than spire points.  You knew that!

From my point of view, yes, even the 45.70 with it's big slow moving bullet, if fired at the right angle will go a long, long way down range, but doesn't retain velocity like a high BC spire point, and on average, won't travel as far......so that 30.30 bubba's hunted with for years shooting flat nose 170's is far less likely to travel out of the county than say a .264 magnum shooting spire point 160's.  That's the thinking behind shotguns and slugs only..........

Am I thinking right on this?
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Offline beemanbeme

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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2005, 04:38:36 PM »
"..... marketing hype are words people use to justify being cheap and just not knowing the benefit of good bullets"   aka stupid.


Hey Redhawk, glad to hear that you and Lawdog have your own little
private joke session going on during an open thread.  And, of course, no harm intended to anyone that you  offend cause you've got a smilie face.

When next you go hunting in grizzly country with your whiz bang and your magic bullets, be sure and take some pepper spray and jingle bells.  

Please note absence of smilie face.

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2005, 05:36:35 PM »
beemanbeme, please stick to the subject at hand, no need for a second thread to be side tracked. Also you have a PM, please read it.
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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2005, 05:50:23 PM »
Quote from: victorcharlie
Ok Greybeard, I'll try to splain it to ya.......

The ballistic coeffencient of a flatnose 30 caliber, 35 caliber etc, is much lower than a spire point etc.  the flatnose bullets fired at a lower velocity loose velocity much faster than spire points.  You knew that!

From my point of view, yes, even the 45.70 with it's big slow moving bullet, if fired at the right angle will go a long, long way down range, but doesn't retain velocity like a high BC spire point, and on average, won't travel as far......so that 30.30 bubba's hunted with for years shooting flat nose 170's is far less likely to travel out of the county than say a .264 magnum shooting spire point 160's.  That's the thinking behind shotguns and slugs only..........

Am I thinking right on this?


Hay you all are making this one hard. :D  I hope I don't have to aim to high to hit a deer on the ground.  :-D
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2005, 06:23:36 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard
Magnums really add nothing of value. If you can't get it done with a '06 based round in North America you need to learn to hunt.  :eek: Another 100 or even 200 fps just doesn't have any real world effect. You'll be lucky if 200 extra fps means an inch at 400 yards. Anyone who believes that is an advantage is kidding only themselves.

Please don't talk to me about paper energy. It is meaningless.


When I hear opinions like that I always find it useful to break out the ballistic calculator and do some checking.  In this case I grabbed the Barnes #3 manual, because it was on top, and found the fastest 180g XLC loads for the .30-06 and the .300 Win Mag.

.30-06, 180G XLC, 2944fps.
.300WM, 180g XLC, 31783fps
Difference = 208fps

Then I ran them through the calculator, zeroing both for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6” diameter target.  The results:
.30-06:  Zero = 253 yards, MPBR = 298 yards, -6” @ 335 yards, ME = 3573fpe, Drop  @ 400 yards = 14.46”
.300 WM:  Zero = 269 yards, MPBR = 316 yards, -6” @ 355 yards, ME = 4024fpe, Drop @ 400 yards = 11.2”

Difference:  Zero = 16 yards, MPBR = 18yards, -6” = 20 yards, ME = 511fpe, Drop @ 400 yards = 3.2”

While one can argue the value of a difference in drop of 3.2” or the value of an extra 511fpe, I often look at things a bit differently. Given two cartridges where trajectory and terminal energy are relatively close, with both individually zeroed for their MPBR’s, as is the case here, I like to look at the range where the bullet drop is 6” and think about the AREA that encompasses.

It is often said that most animals are taken within a range of 100 yards.  If that is true – and it more or less reflects my experience – it would certainly be hard to say that the AREA within those 100 yards is of no value.  Yet when we compare the AREA allowed by a 6” bullet drop from a .300 Win Mag to that of a .30-06 using the loads and zeros above, the measly 20-yard difference in range equates to the area of a circle with a radius of 117 yards.  Just image yourself sitting in the field and scanning 117 yards in every direction.  That’s a LOT of additional area the .300 can cover.

The “learn to hunt” comment ignores reality.  Sometimes it is possible to get closer to game, but other times the terrain, property boundaries, movement by the game, weather, wind, time of day or other factors simply make it impossible to do so.
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Offline Dave in WV

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« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2005, 04:00:30 AM »
I won't say "learn to hunt" but I will say stay within your own abilities. Good marksmanship like woodcraft and sportsmanship is something that has to be practiced. If you are in the majority of hunters that sight in on a bench and never practice otherwise a magnum is not a magical answer for long range shooting. If you have the dedication and time to practice with a magnum you can be rewarded with the advantage they give.
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Offline jro45

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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2005, 04:51:03 AM »
Coyote Hunter:  I thought what you said about the trojectory of the 30-06 and the 300 was very well put. :-)

Offline Robert

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« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2005, 05:17:21 AM »
Quote from: Graybeard
Quote
If you shoot a .308 caliber 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2,900 FPS at ELK, then your shots should probably be limited to, say, about 200 yards. Given the same bullet, if you want to strech your distance, then the velocity can increase accordingly.


Aarrgh, I ain't believing Zach just said that.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

I can't quite swallow that either.  My first Elk was over 400 yds with a 30-06 and a 220 gr factory load...probably a little over 2500 fps.  But then this was my first rifle and my first game hunt ever, and I didn't have a clue what I was doing.  Thank God for that.....I did not know that it was an impossible shot and that it would not have enough knock-down power at that didtance to kill an Elk.  It sure tasted good though, maybe a little on the tough side since it was such a huge 5x6 bull.  To date,I have not gotten a better trophy.
....make it count

Offline Robert

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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2005, 05:32:36 AM »
I would also like to add....that was a very lucky shot.  I like both standard AND magnums.  There IS a benefit to the magnums besides the fact that they will shoot a little flatter trajectory and reach out a little further.  I am talking about bullet performance and HUMANE kills at long range.  600 yds with a .308 Winchester on a big Bull Elk will most likely just get an injured animal, and by the time you travel 600 yds to where you THINK the animal WAS standing.....good luck finding a blood trail or finding the animal.  At 600 yds....a 300 will still have proper bullet expansion and penetration to vitals  (with a proper shot)  That being said....I rarely take a a shot with my Ultra-Mag at any longer distance than I would with my 30-06 or my Whelen.  I just do not feel comfortable with it.  If it is last day of my hunt, I might feel more likely to take such a shot.
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Offline Idaho_Hick

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« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2005, 07:32:50 AM »
I am a non-magnum person and will say what the other non-magnum fans only hint at out of ?????

I, David Crosby, being of sound mind and body, do declare myself to not be a great rifle shot.  As such, I have no business shooting at animals over 300 yards.

Having said that, I will add somewhat relavently, Chevy, but I drive a Mazda, cuz there is the way things ought to be, and there is the way things actually are.

Offline Lawdog

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Re: Standard Velocity Or Magnum Velocity For Big Game Huntin
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2005, 10:12:40 AM »
Quote from: Ramrod
Quote from: Lawdog
Standard Velocity = under 2,900 fps.
Magnum Velocity = over 2,900 fps.

 :D

My .375 H&H pushes a  a 270 grain bullet to 2700 fps, and a 300 grain bullet to only 2550 fps, so I guess it is not a magnum.
On the other hand, my .223 pushes 45 grain JPH's out at 3600 fps, so by this logic, it is definatly in the magnum class. And yet Lawdog does not like .22 centerfires for deer. This can get pretty rediculous.
The bottom line is, any standard big cartridge made for bolt action rifles ( 6.5mm up to .30-06 or so), is good for at least 300 yards on anything you care to kill in North America. If you can't get closer than 200 or 250 yards, you should probably leave the critter for a better hunter.


I guess I need to clarify where I got these figures from.  The technicians at Nosler, Hornady, Sierra, etc.  They use it to explain why certain bullets don’t hold together at so called “Magnum” velocities.  Anything over 2,900 fps. according to them.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Ramrod

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« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2005, 01:43:41 PM »
:D Lawdog, I know, it is almost impossible to get the same bullet to work at 2200 fps vs, say for argument purposes, 3100 fps. This has always been the bullet makers dilema. Most big game bullets designed for the super-high velocities fail miserably at the close ranges that most game is shot at. My opinion is that we as hunters ask too much from our bullets, in order to make our job easier. Just look at a previous post, where a guy wants so shoot at game at 600 yards. Magnum mania is not a good thing. It should be no real job to get within decent range, or let the animal walk.
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Offline Slamfire

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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2005, 01:51:11 PM »
.308 Winchester - 2,620
.30-06 - 2,700
.300 Win Mag - 2,960
.300 Ultra Mag - 3,250

So if'n I take my .308 and sneak up and shoot an elk in his bed, he'll be happy only if I tell him I was 400 yards away and usin' a cannon? Of course he won't be able to tell from the velocity of the bullet, it'll be the same. Proof positive that a .300 ultra mag is a elk killer, but a .308 is best used on varmints.  :-D

We need a patooie smilie.  :wink:
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Offline 7x57mm

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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2005, 02:00:42 PM »
I stayed out of this long enough. I am not a magnum fan, never have been, never will be. They may be the perfect thing for someone else, but not me. To the Maggies, I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, and to the non-Maggies, I'm not saying you are right and the other side is wrong. Most folks posting on this and other forums are hunters and shooters, they know their rifles and weapons. In the hands of a capable, accomplished shooter and marksman, if you feel the mag gives you the edge, take the edge by all means. To those shooters like me who rely on non mags (mine is a 7x57mm mauser loaded hot), well, for the most part those shooters too are accomplished and marksmen, and they know their weapons. Where I see the breakdown comes from the nimrod, the first-time fellow or lady who decides she, or he, is going to take up hunting, reads all the hype about the super-animals these days perpetuated by gun rag writers and not too knowledgable WalMart clerks, and nothing but the latest, whiz-bang mag will do.  He or she makes the purchase along with a box of ammo, scope, rings and the whole nine yards, has the rig assembled and bore sighted and heads to the shooting range. We've all seen them there, timid looking, with their new prize, trying to make heads and tails out of what they bought until some friendly shooter shows them a few things, like how to load the rifle. Then we've seen them blast away at a target, a little shocked by the recoil but not saying a word to anyone, especially the young lady who came to the range to watch her guy in the manly arts of shooting. Eventually, you'll see the friendly shooter show the newbie how to zero the rifle so the bullets are actually hitting the target backround. The nimrod continues to blast a pattern until one projectile just nicks a bullseye, at which point the astonished shooter grins, turns to his admiring girlfriend or wife and anounces ... "good enough." I think deep inside he has to stop at this point because his shoulder is hurting and he secretly knows there is no way in hell that he is going to nick that bullseye again, so, it is indeed, "good enough." Now keep in mind, that fellow is out there in the deer woods, the elk mountains or antelope plains hunting and he has a rifle that will put them down as far away as he can see them because the clerk at the store where he bought his rifle said so. Like wild creatures, I think if one is to go the magnum route, then it should be done one like you are sneaking up on a deer, quietly, with your eyes wide open. The magnum does not make the shooter, the shooter makes the shooter and that, to me, is the danger of magnums, they often do end up in the hands of some folks who should be taking the outdoor experience one step at a time and looking and learning with each step. Sorry for the exceeding long post. Tom Purdom

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2005, 02:23:50 PM »
Quote from: Ramrod
:D Lawdog, I know, it is almost impossible to get the same bullet to work at 2200 fps vs, say for argument purposes, 3100 fps. This has always been the bullet makers dilema. Most big game bullets designed for the super-high velocities fail miserably at the close ranges that most game is shot at. ...


If you want a bullet that will reliably perform well at velocities from 3100fps at the muzzle out past 400 yards, all you need to do is select a premium bullet - like the Swift A-Frame, Speer Trophy Bonded or North Fork bonded.
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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2005, 04:47:35 PM »
Lets not leave out those Barnes X bullets.  :D
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2005, 03:32:46 AM »
7x57mm –
Like you, I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that the arguments against the mags are often based more on emotion, personal sensitivity to recoil, lack of experience shooting over 200 yards, inability to shoot well at extended ranges, lack of confidence doing so, misconceptions about performance, and/or other factors rather than an open-minded assessment of the additional capabilities a high velocity cartridge can bring to the table.  I would agree that a person should be able to accurately shoot what they hunt with, at whatever range they choose to shoot it, but I know many folks who can do this easily with both magnum and non-magnum rifles.  Heck, if recoil is the determining factor, I would be better off -- by a wide margin -- to leave my .45-70 at home and take the .300 Win Mag instead!  
My hunting firearms include .44 Magnums (revolver and carbine), Marlins in .30-30, .375Win and .45-70, .257 Roberts (gotta love that 7x57 case!), 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag and a couple of .50 muzzleloaders.  The .30-30 and .300 Win Mag haven’t been hunting, as I acquired them after last fall’s seasons, but all the others have been carried in the field.  The last three animals I harvested were taken with the Marlins in  .375Win and .45-70, although I also hunted with the .257 Roberts and 7mm Mag during that period.  What I hunt with is often chosen for reasons that often have nothing to do with ballistics.  The Browning .44 Mag carbine was a gift from Dad and was my backup elk rifle for over 20 years – during which time it went into the filed at least one day each season.  Accordingly, I think it is unfair to classify me as either a “Maggie” or a “non-Maggie”.  Most of the hunters I know personally are more or less in the same category as I am and use both magnums and non-magnums.
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Offline cal sibley

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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2005, 10:15:22 AM »
I know of two guys who lost their moose in N. Ontario last season.  Both were hit late in the day, and it appears both shots went through the animal, lung shots judging by the clearness of the blood.  I know one of the hunters, and he says the shot was about 80yds.  The other was about 100yds.  They were both hit with .300Win. Mags. using 180gr. spire points (don't know the brand).  A moose is no harder to kill than a deer.  He's just much bigger.  I'm guessing the velocity of those rounds is about 3000fps.  Those guys would probably been better off with something slower, something that would raise merry olde hell in the animals boiler room.  In both cases the moose made it back into the bush and wasn't found because of impending darkness.  I'm quite sure both animals ultimately dies from the wounds, but it's a shame to lose something as majestic as a moose for any reason.  The only people who actually live that far north in Ontario are Indians on a few reservations.  Most of them get their moose every year, and it's usually with an old .30-30 or .303Brit.
I don't know what the correct answer is, but I don't think it's always the big magnum.  Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal
RIP Cal you are missed by many.

Offline Jimi

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« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2005, 02:09:18 PM »
I think a lot of people read way too much into velocity. For me, the beauty of my .300 Weatherby Magnum is that I can comfortably load 200 and 220 grain bullets and have confidence in my ability to blast something with it 200+ yards away, with authority. Except for the ability to shoot a heavier bullet I don't see the big advantage to a magnum. However, I do view the ability to shoot the heavier bullet as a big advantage.

And therein lies my distaste for some of these newer magnums that sell themselves based on velocity yet cannot effectively shoot a heavier bullet.
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Offline Zachary

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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2005, 04:14:11 PM »
Quote from: Robert
Quote from: Graybeard
Quote
If you shoot a .308 caliber 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2,900 FPS at ELK, then your shots should probably be limited to, say, about 200 yards. Given the same bullet, if you want to strech your distance, then the velocity can increase accordingly.


Aarrgh, I ain't believing Zach just said that.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

I can't quite swallow that either.  My first Elk was over 400 yds with a 30-06 and a 220 gr factory load...probably a little over 2500 fps.  But then this was my first rifle and my first game hunt ever, and I didn't have a clue what I was doing.  Thank God for that.....I did not know that it was an impossible shot and that it would not have enough knock-down power at that didtance to kill an Elk.  It sure tasted good though, maybe a little on the tough side since it was such a huge 5x6 bull.  To date,I have not gotten a better trophy.


Robert,

Read my earlier post.  I noted that I made a mistake in that, despite the 2,900FPS mark, I was thinking about the .308 Winchester, not the .300 Win Mag.  Trust me, I would never knowingly say that a .300 Win mag is only a 200 yard gun for an elk.

Zachary

Offline beemanbeme

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« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2005, 05:13:35 AM »
Jimi, go to the head of the class!!!  Magic bullets may or may not work.  Big, well constructed bullets always do.  Thus African PH's use big bore rifles with biiiiig bullets.  They don't want their last words to be: "but the fellow in the gun shop said................"   :grin:

Offline firstshot

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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2005, 05:55:11 PM »
Maybe I'm a little late, but thought I'd jump in anyway....LOL :grin:

To compensate for the difference in a "magnum" trajectroy and my 7MM-08 "standard" trajectory, I put a Burris Ballistic Plex scope on my rifle.  Now, sighted in dead on at 100Yds using a 145Grn Speer SP (HotCore) running at 2,800 FPS muzzle velocity and using the various Ballistic Plex reticle aim points, I'm within 1/2" of line of sight at 200, 300, 400 and 500 Yds.

I've tested actual impact at 200 Yds and am dead on using the 200Yd aim point.  I haven't tested the 300Yd aim point yet, but I will be doing so and will be practicing at 100, 200 and 300 Yard ranges.  It's highly doubtful I would ever take a shot much over 300 Yds and even then only if I have practiced sufficiently at 300 Yds and feel comfortable shooting at that range.

At any rate, using a "Ballistic Plex", "Mill Dot", or "Boon & Crockett" type reticle, the trajectory advantage of a "magnum" disappears and becomes a mute point.  Granted, because of the added velocity, the "magnum" will deliver higher Ft/Lbs of energy at all impact ranges; however, at 300 Yds my 145Grn HotCore is still traveling at 2,236 FPS and delivering 1,610 Ft/Lbs of energy.  Even at 400 Yds its at 2,064 FPS and 1,372 Ft/Lbs of energy.

Assuming you can place your shot in the right place, just how much is energy is actually needed to take big game at these ranges?

firstshot
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Offline DirtyHarry

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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2005, 07:59:09 PM »
I knew this thread would bring the "anti-magnum" people out of the woodworks and have them scrambling for thier calculators...good job Lawdog.. :D

Oh and as for me, I choose the magnum. Why? Maybe I feel more confident using a magnum or maybe I just like shooting magnums, doesnt really matter as long as I put the bullet where it needs to be...
The early bird get's the worm, but the second mouse get's the cheese.....

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2005, 12:33:29 AM »
Quote from: DirtyHarry
I knew this thread would bring the "anti-magnum" people out of the woodworks and have them scrambling for thier calculators...good job Lawdog.. :D

Oh and as for me, I choose the magnum. Why? Maybe I feel more confident using a magnum or maybe I just like shooting magnums, doesnt really matter as long as I put the bullet where it needs to be...



Well said DirtyHarry.  :D
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Offline firstshot

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« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2005, 08:59:55 AM »
I failed to mention in my post above that I am absolutely NOT an "anti-magnum" type.  As long as you are out there shooting and hunting, I couldn't care less what kind of rifle or caliber you choose to shoot!  I simply choose to shoot one with moderate recoil.

I firmly believe that shot placement is absolutely the most critical factor in hunting and making a clean ethical kill (folowed very closely by using the right bullet for the game being hunted).  As a result, I spend a lot of time at the range, shoot a lot, practice a lot, and I have found that I am a much much better shot with a light recoiling rifle than I am with a heavy recoiling one.   That's one of the reasons I chose the 7MM-08.  It's a very light recoiling caliber, yet with plenty of power and down range capability.  Most importantly though, with the 7MM-08 I can put that bullet where it needs to go!

So, if you happen to be one of those that choose "magnum" and you can also put that bullet where it needs to go, "more power to ya" (Pun intended).  I'll just stick with my 7MM-08 because that's what I shoot best.


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