Rilfes: American or Foreign?

[longwinters]

So back to my question . . . what rifles are actually American thru and thru and what are foreign or have foreign parts etc...

Long

[mjbgalt]

i am an advocate of freedom everywhere it can be found. that includes the market.

i think it is our PATRIOTIC DUTY to buy the best of whatever we need or want. if it happens to be an american product then good. we are rewarding them for good work.

if it is NOT an american product then we're doing them a favor....by showing them we are not tied to their inferior work and that we demand better, and that through this competition, we shall arrive at the pinnacle of what our country can accomplish.

what happened when Toyota came here? all of a sudden Chevys and Fords and Dodges began to look and run better and longer. anyone wish it were not so?

of course you can see what my answer will be....


i buy the best quality i can afford when shopping for a rifle. whether its made here or not i am doing the US of A a favor.

i think its in our best interest to compete because it brings out the best in our people and i firmly believe we will win each competition- but not until we are competing. if we grow stagnant we will become yesterday's news, due to the laws of the free market.

never ceases to amaze me how the same people advocate freedom, EXCEPT in a certain area. well that isnt FREEDOM guys. freedom is the right and ability to do whatever you please as long as it doesnt infringe someone else's freedom.

we should be free to do as we please and free to buy what we want....as long as its made right here, no matter what the price or quality?? cmon.



-Matt

[1911crazy]

I have had many union jobs here for over 35+ years and each company has gone out of business mainly because of the union workers output.  Union workers seem to do just enough to get by and some will try harder to do nothing than the actual job.   Fact i was building 12 gear drives in one 8 hour shift and my union coworker on the next shift built only "3" and he was proud he screwed the company too!!!!  The american worker has become the laziest worker in the world and most want to get paid for doing nothing.  When all the companies that are doing business out of our country now and still selling their goods here with the few we have left soon we will be in deep crap just wait and see.  We taxed these companies to death too!!!!  We will become a service oreinted country thats it we will have easy jobs like changing a roll of toilet paper left and i hope some can handle that!!!!  In my last 25 years of employment I have closed every place i worked for and on one stretch of my unemployment i worked only 9 months in 3 years(meaning i worked 3 months a year) ya its a great to have union job we sure are protected all the way to the poor line aren't we??  When the company closes and moves out of the country we all lose in someway no matter what job we have or were we live the job is gone for good and it never will comeback.  These's a shortage of trained/skilled craftsman sure there is because we all have had career changes or have moved out of state and there not looking or comming back.  Just wait ten more years!!!!!!  I'm retired and i feel sorry for the young guys with new families just starting out, i had 3 jobs when my family was young to get a head years ago.  Now your lucky to have one good paying job if your lucky.  Just remember one thing you make your own breaks so don't wait for things to happen for you go out and make it happen so set your goals and go for them and never look back goodluck.
               
Member of; "united steelworkers of america" and  "united autoworkers" and my old union cards won't even get me a free cup of coffee ya i paid dues for what?

Sorry for the rant guys but its true the great state of ct has run all the industry out of the country then the politicians want to save the few last big companies here its a joke.  Its like no one was watching the store since the early 80's when the first bad recession hit with the 21% interest rates that pulled the rug out from under the industrial manufacturing market here.  My last job was working for one of the biggest profit making companies in the US there in the top ten. And they manufacture all around the world but in the US.  All they do is develope and engineer here in the US then send it out of the country to be manufactured. They even import engineers from around the world too to work here in the US while laying off the US enginerrers  it sure made me proud of this company hey lets give them a tax break right??  Its all about making big profits for the stock holders at the cost of american jobs!! OUR JOBS!!! And its the big investors from around the world who are cashing in on this happening too.  Trust me it will bite us in the butt for sure.

[jvs]

So back to my question . . . what rifles are actually American thru and thru and what are foreign or have foreign parts etc...
Long

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that not one Gunmaker uses all American (USA) parts.  Even though they may be assembled here, raw materials are much cheaper on other parts of the World.  It takes about 17 Countries to build a 'domestic' car now.

I'm also hearing that Harley-Davidson, the American Motorcycle, now has an Exhaust System that has roots in China.

If imports weren't left into this country you'd still be driving a car that had a mileage life expectancy of about 100,000 miles, rarely more.....Having Winchester be the top of the line in gunmaking.  Opening up the USA to Foreign products was a good thing for the consumer but it may not be the best thing for native suppliers.  Every step gets you closer to a one world economy.

Now you may want to ask yourself if you want the British taking over your Media or the EU dictating your national security.

He who dies with the most toys ........ wins.

[Paul Barnard]

mjbgalt said:

never ceases to amaze me how the same people advocate freedom, EXCEPT in a certain area. well that isnt FREEDOM guys. freedom is the right and ability to do whatever you please as long as it doesnt infringe someone else's freedom.

we should be free to do as we please and free to buy what we want....as long as its made right here, no matter what the price or quality?? cmon.

Matt, were you able to extrapolate that from something posted in this thread?  If so, what?

We are truly in an internationalized ecconomy and it is unlikely that every part of any gun originates in the same country.  Not a big deal to me.

Like I said, I've seen people bashed for patriotic purchasing tendancies.  It would be different if someone were paying big bucks for a POS manufactured in the USA.  All things being equal or close to equal the most American product gets the nod from me.  No apologies from me.  I'm proud of my patriotism.

[mjbgalt]

what i meant by that was simply a reference to the people who say stupid things like "seal us off from the rest of the world, we dont need em" and "we should always buy american no matter what"

people who equate buying a toyota or a sony or a Howa with treason.


i was simply saying that patriotism is well served by competing and that some on this site seem to think that we should always buy american no matter what the price and quality. these people want high paying jobs and yet they also want those high paid employees to turn out a cheaply made high quality product sold in only mom and pop stores, made by union workers who make $35 an hour.

it cant be that way anymore.

they talk about freedom but advocate us being enslaved to buying ONLY a product made right here.

thats all i meant.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

sheesh....all that wind i used to saybasically that we should buy the best we can afford.

-Matt

[Zachary]

Then why didn't you just say so?

Yea, I can agree with that. :wink:

Zachary

[mjbgalt]

sorry to get this so far off topic...i guess i needed to get that out lol.



as far as i have seen, the domestics are as good as the imports...usually the same level of performance and quality at the same price tier.

-Matt

[1911crazy]

Ok i'm looking for a new gun right now which one should i choose??  I don't care about looks fit or finish the bottomline for me can it shoot accurately??  How tight are the groups?  Is barrel break in needed or not or is it an unexpected  problem?  Its all about the quality of the barrel.  If I spend $600 to $800 for a new rifle that shoots 1 1/2" or 2" groups out of the box i'd be mad.  My last new remington 700 in 338win. mag. ($650)that i purchased back in '94 will shoot two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds with new winchester bought ammo and that was with the second box of ammo that went thru it so i happen to get a good barrel.  With my '72 mossberg(example) it will shoot 3/4" groups all day long but i had to reload for it to be accurate($172).  So what accuracy should i expect from a new rifle now?  Does the more dollars I spend on a new one will that insure me tha I get a better quality accurate rifle?  I'm very gun shy right now on buying a new rifle because i think with the CNC machining and quick production that goes on today we have lost the hands on craftsmanship in gun manufacturing.  Years ago the gunsmith building the rifle would put his love of the art into each "hands on" gun he made.  With the higher priced guns do you think we get what we are paying for?  I think either way wether we pay more or less its still a crap shoot on wether we get a good shooter or not.   It kind of makes a used gun seem the way to go or spending less and hope you get a good one.  I was thinking of a new savage but i may try a new mossberg in 270 for $244.  A while back i went thru three brand new remington 1100 shotguns and i finally got one that worked that i pawned it because i didn't trust it and i still have a bad feeling in my wallet about it.  I don't care where its made but only if it can shoot accurately and if i get what i'm paying for and the $600 to $800 guns scare me.                              BigBill

[Zachary]

I don't care about looks fit or finish the bottomline for me can it shoot accurately??

Is barrel break in needed or not or is it an unexpected  problem?  

So what accuracy should i expect from a new rifle now?

Does the more dollars I spend on a new one will that insure me tha I get a better quality accurate rifle?

As for your bottom line - I agree with you a lot.  Some people say that they don't buy Savages because they are ugly.  I really could care less how a gun looks like as long as it shoot great.

As far as barrel break in is concerned, I really don't know have a scientific answer to that, although, to be on the safe side, I break-in all my barrels anyway.  To be fair, Tikkas and Sakos are fired before they leave the factory and they are required to shoot 1MOA before they leave the factory. They also come with a 1MOA guaranty.

So what accuracy should you expect?  Under 1.5MOA for sure, and 1MOA should be the norm with some factory ammo, and  anything under 1MOA shouldn't have to be surprising, although certainly welcome.  I remember Weatherby used to have a 1.5MOA guaranty - what a big deal that was remember?  Well now,  as stated, Tikka and Sako have a 1MOA guaranty.

Do you get more accuracy as the price of the gun goes up?  NO.  As I have said before,  you can dip an inaccurate gun in gold and sprinkle it with diamonds, but that won't make it shoot better.  Look at the Savage, it is one of the lesser expensive rifles (and I think it has a very cheap and sloppy bolt action) but it is consistently one of the most accurate rifles out there out of the box.

[Buckfever]

BigBill I have 3 tikkas currently, and 3 Remingtons.  When somebody asks what kind of guns I like I say Sako's but I can't justify buying or hunting with them.  I rate accuracy, fit and feel, and then cost.  If I scratch it so be it.  I am hunting it is a tool.  By fit and feel I mean do I like the overall looks of the gun.  Then probably more important how does it come up to my shoulder.  

So: Accuracy to build confidence,  comes up to the shoulder-fits me,  and then I consider cost.  I like all my guns, however the Tikkas are my current favorites.  Will that change I am sure at sometime!  Thats what makes looking at them fun.  Sell one get one.  Some for memories will be given to special people when I can't hunt much anymore.  That my friend I expect to be a long time from today!   Buckfever

[1911crazy]

Now with all said do you expect the new gun you pick to shoot good right out of the box with new over the counter ammo or is a small amount of tweekin and reloading to find the right accurate load acceptable?  I was shocked back in '94 that my new remington shot so well on the second box of new ammo was i lucky i feel i was very lucky to get a gun that shot so good right out of the box.  Now with most gun manufacturers having quality problems lately(remington, springfield armory ect.) i'm just not sure what to expect out of a new rifle.  Is a new rifle worth it or should we be looking at building one from scratch?  I think if i'm going to the high dollar ones i may as well build one with a better barrel.  It seems to be the norm lately with other hunters they seem to build there rifles.  I'm not sure if they buy a new rifle and there not happy with it then change out the barrel to better the accuracy.  I don't want to be a pain but we do have other directions we can go too.  I can understand about taking a high dollar rifle in the woods and taking a chance scratching it.  Thats what kept me away from the weatherby's years ago.     BigBill

[Ramrod]

I find it amazing that guys will spend $30,000 or more on a pickup truck that is going to be a pile of rust 20 years from now, but won't hunt with a thousand dollar rifle because they might scratch it.

[1911crazy]

No 30k trucks or cars here my last new subaru '97 cost me 15k and i have 142,000 miles on it and i plan on driving it for 300,000 miles i get the money out of my new cars.  I see others buy two new cars to my one and they'll probably buy a third one and i'll still be driving my subie laughing all the way to the bank too!!!! I even gave up buying a new car to buy land in Vermont so i own my own camp that was 10k in '86.  I'm not cheap i'm frugal where i spend my dollars.  Right now I'm, looking for a 30 acre farm thats more important than a 1,000 rifle to me.  I'm more into surplus military guns besides modern guns but the high dollar guns just kill me when it comes to accuracy and quality I just love out shooting them at the local range with my 100 year old surplus gun that has more miles on it than my subaru.            Frugal BigBill

[Ramrod]

I didn't mean you, BigBill, just making a general statement. I'm frugal too, but to me lately, that means owning fewer higher quality guns, than a room full of cheaper ones. Most of the complaints on this forum seem to be about cheap plastic stocks, gritty actions, and poor accuraccy. These problems can only be solved by not buying cheap guns to begin with. Times change. Even a good used gun in a higher grade is a much better buy than one of today's new cheaper models.

[Buckfever]

My Tikka's and 1 Remington shot dead nuts on right out of the box.  Sako barrels are a wonderful thing, Tikka has the same barrel as a Sako. The rest of the gun is different.  They are also lighter which I like for most carry hunting.  The Sako has a triple lug action and is a great firearm but I would rather have 2 guns in different calibers that shoot as good as a Sako than on heavier one.  My one Remington was Win 300 Mag. with the fat barrel.  That barreled action is part of a Custom gun I had built.  Shoots great but not better than the Tikkas and cost 3 times as much!
Hey these are my choices doesn't make them the only ones or the right ones for you.  Buckfever

[1911crazy]

I guess we all want the most "bang for our buck" when it all comes down to it.  I have to stretch my dollar as far as it can go now since i'm on social security too.(disabled)  But i still want a new quality rifle that can shoot thats the bottomline.  I don't have the time nor the cash to try all the different guns I get to pick one thats it. (fathers day gift)  I want a 270win but i may go for a used gun in either 264win.mag or 284 win.mag. too.  I have heard the mossberg 270 can shoot .5 groups right out of the box.   I like the synthetic stock for the woods.                                    BigBill

[Squeeze]

BigBill,

I just recently purchased a Savage 16(Weather Warrior series Stainless/Synthetic),
in .22-250 Rem, and the last group I fired, was .385" for 3 shots, at 100 yards.
The barrel is not broken in yet(less than 100 rounds).  The cost on that rifle was
right around $400.  A blued, synthetic, Savage, at Wal-Mart would be less than that,
and I would expect sub MOA accuracy out of it.

I just picked up a new Tikka T-3 Lite, in .223 Rem, for $460, and I have one break-in
round down the barrel.  Obviously this one is too new for me to say what it is
capable of, but using my other Tikka rifle experiences, I expect sub MOA accuracy
with this rifle, too.  

You do not have to spend more than $400 to get a Savage rifle, that should meet
your accuracy expectations.  For something around $100 more, you could
get some models of a Tikka T-3, that would give you a more handsome rifle,
with good fit and finish, it you prefer a good shooter, and a "purty" rifle.

Savage is the "best bang for the buck" on the new factory rifle market today.
And if you find simplicity a mark of beauty, it is beautiful, too.

Squeeze

[Zachary]

I want a 270win but i may go for a used gun in either 264win.mag or 284 win.mag. too.        BigBill

A .284 Win Mag?  Are you talking about a 7mm Rem Mag?

Zachary

[1911crazy]

I want a 270win but i may go for a used gun in either 264win.mag or 284 win.mag. too.        BigBill

A .284 Win Mag?  Are you talking about a 7mm Rem Mag?

Zachary

Your right its a "284 winchester" its a step above the 7mm mauser and just below the 7mm rem mag.                                 BigBill