Primers Backing Out

[Camel 23]

I have a SBH Hunter in 45lc and have been playing with some different "Ruger Only" loads for it.  With the heavier loads the primers have been backing out just enough to keep the cylinder from rotating properly.  I have tried both starline and winchester brass as well as the cci 300 and 350 primers.  All combinations have the same results.  Has anyone else has this problem?  Should I try a different brand of primers?

[jgalar]

I dont claim to be a revolver expert, but I would suggest lower your charges. In a high pressure rifle cartridge one of the first things that happens upon firing is the primer gets shoved out a bit. When the case expands it will reseat the primer. Good headspace on a rifle will only be about .004", I don't recall what the headspace of a revolver is, but its gobs more. The brass will never expand enough to push the primer back in.

Just my theory, if I'm wrong enlighten me. :grin:

[TScottO]

If your primers are being flattened and you are experiencing primer flow you need to back off of your loads. A lot of people like to load stuff hot but it only wears out your brass and puts undue stress on your gun. All of the “extra” power gained is more than likely wasted for any type of North American animal you will ever shoot with it. Rugers are tough guns and can handle some heat but it just not worth it to me. If I want more power I buy a bigger caliber gun.

Be Safe,
Scott

[Camel 23]

The loads I'm shooting are not extreme.  I'm talking about 24 gr of H-110 with a 265 gr hardcast and 21 gr of H-110 with a 300 gr hardcast.  The primers alone look good but they just back out a hair.  I'm not trying to stop tanks with these loads.

[Castaway]

Primers backinng out are caused by two different conditions.  One is very light loads.  Upon firing the pressure works both ways, sending the bullet out at one end, pushing toward the primer at the other.  If too light, the brass will not accellerate backward enough to reset the primer.  You stated you were working on Ruger type loads though.  The second reason is from brass that has loose primer pockets, either from inferior brass or shooting to many hot loads.  Both Starline and Winchester brass are excelent quality.  My guess is it's a matter of too many loads in your brass.

[Catfish]

With the load you are useing your are running them on the hot side. It could be a combination of thing that are causeing them to be hotter in your gun than another gun, but they are hotter than any data I could find for the .45 Colt. any way. Even if you don`t blow up your gun your putting alot of strain on it that will wear it out sooner. I would suggest that if you really need more power than a .45 Colt will deliever safely to but a .454 or a .500 Smith. When you keep doing things that appear to be dangerious sooner or later your going to get hurt.

[Redhawk1]

I run a lot of hot loaded 45LC in my Ruger, but I have never had the primers move back to where I could not rotate the cylinder. I use the winchester large pistol primers in my 45LC reloads. You might want to give them a try. I use all different kinds of brass, PMC, Winchester, etc. I don't think a CCI 350 Mag primer is needed in the 45LC, even when it is loaded hot. Give the Winchester LP Primers a try.    Also use extreme caution when loading in the upper limits.  :shock:

[45 WLN]

I agree with Redhawk1, I also use winchester primers in my 45lc, The loads you have listed are quite useable and are within good practices, Hogdon lists 23.5gr of h110 with a 335 cast on there sight. I have experienced undersized primers from cci in the past, rarely mind you but it has happened, more with there shotgun primers, But it has still happened. Try the winchester large pistol. Let Us know

[TScottO]

I’ve never heard of a “gun” problem that would cause this. Are you using any type of primer pocket uniforming tool. It’s possible you could be removing more brass than necessary. Another option is you could call Buffalo Bore and order a box of their ammo that resembles yours and see if you have the same problem. Last I heard Starline makes Buffalo Bores brass.

Be Safe,
Scott

[Camel 23]

The Starline brass that I am using is brand new and never fired.  The winchester brass has been fired a couple times.  I have not used any primer pocket uniforming tools.

[TennesseeNuc]

camel,
I'll have to vote with the Winchester large pistol primers also.  Give them a try. and it might solve your problem.
Best,
TnNuc

[Camel 23]

Well, I gave the Winchester primers a try.  They worked MUCH better.  I still had a couple that backed up a bit but 2 out of 25 is better then 3 out of every 5 which I was getting with the CCI primers.

[Redhawk1]

Glad to here you had better results. Also one thing you might want to look for is, make sure your cylinder is free of gun oil and your brass is clean and free of case lube. To prevent case from sliding in the cylinder.  

[unspellable]

Just had problems with CCI 350 primers in a Smith &Wesson Model 28 chambered for the 357-44 B&D.  Not all that hot a load.  The primers didn't back out but on a few of them the centers looked as if the melted and flowed back into the firing pin indentation.  The edges of the primers did not flatten.  Tied up the gun.  14 grains of Blue Dot behind a 180 grain jacketed bullet.  I have load recipes calling for 16.6 or 17 grains of Blue Dot behind a 158 grain jacketed bullet.  In am going to 158 grain jacketed bullets with a mild load to see what happens.

I've heard rumours that the 38 Super shooters are familiar with this problem.

[John Traveler]

Correct, Unspellable.

Extruded primer indents flowing back into the firing pin hole CAN be an indication of excessive load pressure, but are also related to several other factors, namely: sloppy firing pin/recoil plate fit, weak hammer spring, and surprise, surprise!  EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE.

Yes, excesive headspace.  Many revolver and auto pistol shooters have excessive headspace and never notice it in using more mild loads.  

In revolvers, the hammer spring and firing pin protrusion are so healthy that reliable ignition is achieved and excessive HS usually never noticed.  However, with loats pushing the "hot" margin, case walls cling more to the chamber and extruded primers or primer indents are likely.  When the case slams back against the recoil plate, the primer reseats, but an extruded indent results.  In rimless auto pistols (particularly high pressure calibers like .38 Super and 9x19), firing pin protrusion is almost unlimited, leaving only the primer indent to relieve firing pressure.

These symptoms indicate a good look at your loads, hammer spring, and firing pin/recoil plate fit are needed.

These are all good reasons for NOT loading to maximum pressures for serious uses like defense and hunting game that bites back.

[unspellable]

John,

My primer indents look more as if melted than than shoved back flat.  I've never seen a primer look that way.  The primers are not flattened at the edges.  The cases show no pressure signs.

My approach will be first, to reduce endshake, and thus reduce headspace in the revolver.  Second I will drop from a 180 grain bullet to a 158 grain bullet.  I have not decided on a powder charge yet, but it won't be hot.  I have load data for the 158 grain, but not for the 180 grain bullet so the pressure could be high in spite of the reduced powder charge.  I have only just acquired the 357-44 cylinder and a handful of the 180 grain laods came with it.  It will all take a bit of sorting out.  A complication is that the 357-44 is a bottle necked cartridge and you can get setback in a revolver even without excess pressure.

I could not agree with you more on the dangerous game loads.  I see people pushing the 458 Winchester to the wall and never worrying about high temperatures or hard extraction.  The Brits knew what they were doing when they used big cases and low pressure for the job.

[Flash]

I've always felt that CCI had a softer primer cup on all their primers, including the shotgun. I have had a 30 carbine do the same thing but the cases were almost used beyond their practical limit. The 45 colt should headspace on the rim and not the case mouth but really, this  shouldn't make any difference. I use some nasty loads in the carbine and all the cases look fine when they are once fired. Remington's primers work fine too and don't back out.

[Steve P]

CCI does have a softer primer.  I shoot a lot of silhouette and due to this and other problems, I no longer use CCI primers in my hunting, defense, or competition guns.  This is not to say they don't work for good plinking loads.  They do.  

I use Winchester primers for majority of my hunting, silhouette, defense, etc.  Also use some Remington and some Federal.  Never had one of these back out unless working up hunting loads and getting pressures up.  Usually start to flatten or crater before backing out.

Try the Winchesters.  I think you will find the folks who mentioned them above are right on target.  

Steve  

[Bullseye]

I have always heard for years that CCI was the hardest primers and Winchester was the softest.  Unless a load is awful light, I do not see how a primer is going to back out.  Don't all primers back out until the rearward thrust of the bullet pushes the primer back into the case.  No primer pocket is tight enough to hold a primer in place during firing.

[Flash]

Just as an explosive charge can be shaped to direct the force in any given direction, the powder charge inside a loaded round is taking the path of least resistance and being directed by the primer. Primers will NOT blow out the back under normal conditions and the pocket is definately tight enough to hold the primer in place. Even though the powder is laying in different places inside the case during firing, the charge of the primer works with the forces of the gunpowder and directs the charge towards the case mouth. If you ever have shot a empty primed case in darkness, you will see how much force the primer has. A round, regardless of the size, could easily be ignighted electronically but you then are creating a bomb. You want a controlled and directed ignition, not just a source to light the powder. CCI has often failed for me and I have always have attributed it to being from softer metal. I switched to Remington and have never waivered from them.

[Bullseye]

If you think a primer pocket will hold a primer in a case try putting some primers in an empty case and firing the primer in a revolver.  The cylinder will bind up because the primer backs out and the case does not have the rearward thrust of the powder explosion to drive the primer back into the case.  If a primer pocket would hold a primer in with 40,000 plus psi on the other side, I do not think that we would be able to put the primer in with a hand tool.

[Steve P]

Bullseye,

I don't often try to openly disagree with someone, as it causes disharmony on the board, but I think you are wrong on this one.

Couple of cases in point:  Plastic bullets fired by primers only.  Wax bullet pest loads, fired by primer only.  Based on your theory, my revolver would bind up due to backing out primers.  It never has.

The primer itself is the first explosion, creating pressure and sending it thru the flash hole.  When the pressures within the fired case begin to override the pressure from the primer your primer has a chance to back out.  

If there is a problem with primer backing out, first cause of concern would be excess pressure within the case (too much or too little powder).  If carefull checking has negated problem with the powder, next item to check is the cases and/or the primers themselves.  I have seen lots of brass that has primer pocket stretch from being fired with excessive pressure.  At this point, only safe thing to do is crush the brass with a pliers and throw it away.

Try some of the wax bullets and see for yourself.

Steve  

[Redhawk1]

Steve P, after reading Bullseyes post and your reply. I loaded 20, 44 MAG cases with just the primers, and fired all 20 and not one primer backed out. I also have shot plastic bullets out of my .38 and again no backed out primers.  :grin:

[Bullseye]

You guys are right, it is not worth arguing about and having dis-harmony on the board so I will end my input with one last comment.  I also have loaded some primers in some once fired 357 brass and it backed out and bound up the cylinder.  Upon researching the subject I learned what I described in this post.  But heck, it aint worth arguing about, let's to go shooting and make some noise!! :grin:

[Redhawk1]

You guys are right, it is not worth arguing about and having dis-harmony on the board so I will end my input with one last comment.  I also have loaded some primers in some once fired 357 brass and it backed out and bound up the cylinder.  Upon researching the subject I learned what I described in this post.  But heck, it aint worth arguing about, let's to go shooting and make some noise!! :grin:

Bullseye, no argument from me. I just want to try what you posted.  We all are just trying to help out Camel23. All input is welcome.  

[Camel 23]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions.  The use of different primers seems to be helping to reduce to problem I am having.  I will continue to experiment with different combinations.

[cbagman]

Just had problems with CCI 350 primers in a Smith &Wesson Model 28 chambered for the 357-44 B&D.  Not all that hot a load.  The primers didn't back out but on a few of them the centers looked as if the melted and flowed back into the firing pin indentation.  The edges of the primers did not flatten.  Tied up the gun.  14 grains of Blue Dot behind a 180 grain jacketed bullet.  I have load recipes calling for 16.6 or 17 grains of Blue Dot behind a 158 grain jacketed bullet.  In am going to 158 grain jacketed bullets with a mild load to see what happens.

I've heard rumours that the 38 Super shooters are familiar with this problem.

  I just worked up a 180g. loading with 20.3 G of H110 using W/W mag/std  primers in my B&D with no primer troubles. I am using 1x fired BHA cases before forming.  :wink:  cbagman