Windjammer cargo ships

[guzzijohn]

Had been reading some stuff on the the 19th century steel hauled windjammer cargo ships. One of the largest ones AVERAGED 16kts on transatlantic runs which I would think is as fast or faster than most powered cargo ships today. I am guessing it might be difficult to make huge sailing ships but it seems that with current technologies that it would cost effective to operate a primarily wind powered  ship, at least on routes that had fairly dependable winds. Anyone here that may have more direct knowledge on modern sailing? Should it be something that is further developed?
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

  Most cargo ships and oil tankers are operated with relatively small crews.  Sail ships have always been labor intensive, and likely any prospective crews would necessarily be union members.  That would make the costs prohibitive..cheaper to burn fossil fuel..  Just my $ .02

[gstewart44]

I don't think its the speed that the wind powered ships go but rather the size/cargo limitations.....even if it is faster than modern freighters,   the sailships have a much smaller cargo capacity.    .....have to make multiple trips to equal the cargo of the big boys  = more expense.

[SHOOTALL]

start up cost would be high . but it would be a beautiful sight.

[blind ear]

The steel hull vessel that set the speed record was riding a storm front crossing the Atlantic. Not good for long term averages.
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To be under way and not have to tack is hard to accomplish unless you follow the trade winds. Those winds circle the Atlantic north and south of the equator. A following wind gets you there quickest but it is not easy to find in a shortest route scenario.
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Atlantic satelite: http://www.weather.com/maps/maptype/satelliteworld/atlanticoceansatellite_large_animated.html
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South America:
http://www.weather.com/maps/geography/southamerica/southamericasatellite_large_animated.html
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ear

[SHOOTALL]

there is talk of a Windjammer come back but it would be a boat with sail and power so it could take advantage of wind but also sail when wind was not favorable. Dependence on wind was one of its short comings.  Some old ones are still sailing as cruise ships.

[briarpatch]

Good concept that has been tested on modern ships and found to work even on ships underway. The sails were put in use when the winds would offer push to the ships propulsion system.   

[blind ear]

Average speed for world cruiseing , point to point, is about 6 or 7 mph at best. Why would anyone wan't to watch water (and nothing else) go by at 6 miles an hour - - - for days and days and days and days and days?
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Just shoot me. ear

[SHOOTALL]

I was just reading they carry 7000 to 9000 tons of cargo some more. Not a super container ship but to places that are smaller or out of the way it makes sense ? add a few cabins at a low rate ...................The average with the Windjammer was 12 to 15 knots , at 12 knots that would be around 15 mph I believe. And when the wind slowed the engine takes over keeping the average up.
 Now more to the point of watching the water go by , for me it could be quite nice depending on my companion if you catch my drift .

[sharps4590]

There is a greater effect, ie benefit, from wind when it is coming from off the beam to approximately 45 degrees from beam to bow.  That too depends on how close to the wind a boat/ship will sail.  When it's dead behind all you get is the speed of the wind.
 
Without power you also have the problems of maneuver.  And as others have mentioned, it takes a fairly good sized crew to run a very big ship.  Granted there are 60-80 footers that can be single handed and that specialization would have to be included on cargo ships or the labor costs would be prohibitive...and at the moment I am unaware of any technology to operate a few hundred foot long cargo ship with skeleton crews.  Then there is the maintenance....anyone who has ever owned a sail boat, (I have two sitting on my property), is probably sitting there looking at their screen shaking their head "yes".

[blind ear]

Companion, a totally different perspective. The world can go away. ear

[gstewart44]

  Then there is the maintenance....anyone who has ever owned a sail boat, (I have two sitting on my property), is probably sitting there looking at their screen shaking their head "yes".

Boy, I hear that - Never owned a sail boat but my dad built fishing boats and we were on the water every weekend.....my job was cleanup/maintenence.    I used to love the look of teak but the stuff is labor intensive to keep it nice in the Florida sun and salt.    Polishing metal, cleaning scum and barnacles, engine work ......  I feel fortunate to have had the experiences but for me, I will rent or charter a boat when I want to go fishing/sailing these days. 

[Ranger99]

just a swag, but i'd have to say the big factor
would be the knowledge that those folks had
of the small details of sail power in the 19th
century and back. also, they had in their mind
that it was life and death to succeed. the thought
of pirates, harsh discipline with no hiring a lawyer
to sue or filing a complaint with a union, possibility
of capitol punishment on the spot for major infractions,
no calling on the radio for a coast guard helping
hand, knowing if the ship didn't make out
alright you would likely as not die, etc.


huge difference in those days and these days.

[blind ear]

just a swag, but i'd have to say the big factor
would be the knowledge that those folks had
of the small details of sail power in the 19th
century and back. also, they had in their mind
that it was life and death to succeed. the thought
of pirates, harsh discipline with no hiring a lawyer
to sue or filing a complaint with a union, possibility
of capitol punishment on the spot for major infractions,
no calling on the radio for a coast guard helping
hand, knowing if the ship didn't make out
alright you would likely as not die, etc.


huge difference in those days and these days.

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When those ships left home they might not be back home for five or more years. The capitan was the "power of attourney" for the owners and would develope trade between continents with what ever he had to work with.
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A ship leaving western Europe headed to western South America (fertilizer) might not reset it's sails, after it got south the equator, for months. The ship sailed close to Antartica, changed tack, then back north into the Pacific and when in line with port would set sail and blow into the continent. Might leave South America headed for Australia.
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ear

[ironglow]

  Here is a news article concerning a hijacked tanker which is 1,092 feet long.  It describes a crew totaling 25.   To me, that seems a small size for such a large ship.  That's about 1 crew member for every 44 feet.     
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1087978/Fears-grow-hijacked-supertanker-crew-heavily-armed-Islamists-prepare-attack-pirates-seized-Muslim-ship.html
 
  Clipper ships of 150-200 tons, used a crew of about 100.  Extrapolated out, that would mean a crew of several hundred..  Even if the number were cut with modern equipment, and a crew of 200 or so could do the job... it's still not feasible..(IMO)...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_men_made_up_a_typical_crew_on_a_clipper_ship
 
 
  Super tanker weight;
    " The "M Star" which may have been attacked in the Strait of Hormuz is a 320,000 DWT
which carries a cargo capacity of 220,000 tons of crude oil."

[ChungDoQuan]

The modern concept was developed by the Cousteau Society, for the research ship Alcyone. It uses two "turbosails" to augment the diesel engine. They are 3.5-4 times more powerful than traditional sails, and computer controlled, so, not labor intensive like traditional sails--- they're more like wings. Cousteau reported a 1/3 reduction in fuel use and overall efficiency increase of 15%. Only two have ever been built. It is no uglier than the smokestacks on steamships.

[SHOOTALL]

some of the last windjammers had mechanical equipment for raising and adjusting sails and had small crews .

[Awf Hand]

I can't speak to ocean-going vessles, but I have three relatives who work on ships on the Great Lakes.  Current cargo haulers can move a few inches per gallon of fuel, and have between 20 and 30 crewmen to operate them.  One cousin attended the Ann Arbor maritime academy and basically does the same tasks as Lt. Sulu -for those of you who watch "Star Trek"- on an ore boat.  I saw this thread and shot him the question.  His response was this: "Only if it saves money."  The ships they are running are 30-60 years old and would need to be retrofit with rigging that may interfere with loading/unloading or passageways they have to navigate. -Ocean travel may be a bit different in this aspect.
While there would be some loss in conversion to electric, a wind-gathering turbine unit that could catch wind, produce electricity to suppliment the diesel and then be lowered for harbor navigation would be a better approach than fabric sails, as wind direction wouldn't matter or require input from riggers.  The design compromise would be in building something tough enough to withstand attachment to a moving platform and stand XXX feet tall at top of rotor while still being capable of folding down like the self-unloader conveyor units.

[mcwoodduck]

I am not sure with the containerized cargo a Ship with masts would be the best use of space and would the masts nad booms get in the way of loading and unloading of the truck containers?

[guzzijohn]

http://www.gizmag.com/b9-shipping-cargo-sailing-ships/23059/


GuzziJohn

[mcwoodduck]

OK,
Looks expensive, if you think it is a winner invest your money.  The peoblem is the taxes in he US are too high on commercial ships and none will be registered here. 

[Awf Hand]

http://www.gizmag.com/b9-shipping-cargo-sailing-ships/23059/


GuzziJohn

Those look stunningly fragile as a primary or even secondary propulsion.  The against-the-wind problem solution is?

I'm still visualizing a series of vertical axis wind turbines.  Any time there is wind, regardless of direction, they are useful and require no aiming.
This style (or similar) http://www.helixwind.com/en/
 
But I've got no dog in the fight...

[blind ear]

http://www.gizmag.com/b9-shipping-cargo-sailing-ships/23059/


GuzziJohn

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Looks like an updated rerun from an old "Mother Earth News"