Quick, about the belled bore?

[blind ear]

You have explained that the mfg process creates a consistant average o.oo5 opening of the bore causing it to be belled. There is obviously a reason the mfg process couldn't be reversed, for that particular machine tooling procedure, to create a tightening bore. It would seem a simple jig or "fixture" that could be created to attach to the unfinished barrel to replace the barrel it's self as the part held by the machine tools. That would be a reuseable jig and cost diminishing to zero. The constant cost would be attaching and removing the jig which would seem to be minimal and average over cost of production to near zero, with a propper jig.
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As long as they have been making barrels someone else would have thought of this by now. Do you know what the snag in the process is that keeps this change from being able to be made? Mainly curious as to the process step sequence that creates the problem.
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They have a machine shop. They can do anything including extending the ways of the lathe bed if necessary.
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thanks, ear 

[quickdtoo]

I don't know of any inexpensive way to do it, they deep hole bore the barrel, then rifle it, then the barrel is contoured.  Without being stress relieved the smaller muzzle end relaxes a little and the bore opens slightly and we end up with a .0005" larger dimension on the tapered end. Any additional work they do would just increase the production cost and we don't really want that, I have no complaints on how any of my H&Rs shoot. 

Tim

[rdlange]

OK, when we shorten our barrels - how much cut off length removes the belled portion?  Just asking because alot of us have shorties and seem to recall some mentioning improved accuracy.

Thanks.

Happy New Year.

[blind ear]

I don't know of any inexpensive way to do it, they deep hole bore the barrel, then rifle it, then the barrel is contoured.  Without being stress relieved the smaller muzzle end relaxes a little and the bore opens slightly and we end up with a .0005" larger dimension on the tapered end. Any additional work they do would just increase the production cost and we don't really want that, I have no complaints on how any of my H&Rs shoot. 

Tim

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I see. Not what I imagined. You're right. Thanks, ear

[quickdtoo]

OK, when we shorten our barrels - how much cut off length removes the belled portion?  Just asking because alot of us have shorties and seem to recall some mentioning improved accuracy.

Thanks.

Happy New Year.

The only way to know is slug the bore, there's no "bell", the barrel taper will define the more open part.

Tim

[blind ear]

OK, when we shorten our barrels - how much cut off length removes the belled portion?  Just asking because alot of us have shorties and seem to recall some mentioning improved accuracy.

Thanks.

Happy New Year.

The only way to know is slug the bore, there's no "bell", the barrel taper will define the more open part.

Tim

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What I had in mind was new guns out of the box. for shooters that don't know the quirks of the handy maybe H&R soulld include a "performance tips" materal plus a reference to gboreloaded.com for those willing to do something for themself. Many don't want to tinker, thay just want to shoot. ear

[quickdtoo]

Maybe Brian could do that.  Madison Customer Support has referred customers here for info, so they definitely know about us. 

Tim

[rdlange]

Thank you. 

I infer that bull barrels would have the least and superlights the most.  Can't say it's affected my shooters, I'm not good enough to notice.

Happy New Year.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

firelapping could reverse the taper, but would leave you with a slightly oversized bore.

lead lapping could straighten the taper, but is more work.

[blind ear]

firelapping could reverse the taper, but would leave you with a slightly oversized bore.

lead lapping could straighten the taper, but is more work.

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Whole lot more fun to just shoot it until it fouls to a shooter, if you know that. ear

[PineyCreek22]

Just one of the things that makes the Handi Rifle platform so attractive is it's price point.  You can expect minute of deer out of the box.  If you want clover leaf accuracy at 100 yards consistently then the processes that are involved immediately put you into a custom rifle cost curve.  Either you have to learn how to do it yourself or pay a gunsmith to do it.  In building my Monoblock which uses a cu tom "upper receiver", after market, air gauged, stress relieved, taper lapped barrel and glass bedded forearm the cost so far is $650.00 and still rising.  Regards, Piney Creek

[blind ear]

Just one of the things that makes the Handi Rifle platform so attractive is it's price point.  You can expect minute of deer out of the box.  If you want clover leaf accuracy at 100 yards consistently then the processes that are involved immediately put you into a custom rifle cost curve.  Either you have to learn how to do it yourself or pay a gunsmith to do it.  In building my Monoblock which uses a cu tom "upper receiver", after market, air gauged, stress relieved, taper lapped barrel and glass bedded forearm the cost so far is $650.00 and still rising.  Regards, Piney Creek

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yep. but that isn't the market segment that I had in mind. Mine will cloverleaf but I like tinkering. ear

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

the only concern I'd have is in shooting cast bullets, a reverse choke is not usually the best regarding leading, and accuracy.

[petemi]

Does any of it really matter?  I would think the bullets path would be determined by the first few inches of rifling.  If the rifling loosened up or was cut off after that, I would think the only effect would be on velocity not accuracy if the barrel was true.

Pete

[knight0334]

OK, when we shorten our barrels - how much cut off length removes the belled portion?  Just asking because alot of us have shorties and seem to recall some mentioning improved accuracy.

Thanks.

Happy New Year.

The increase in accuracy might be a compounded equation.

Longer barrels are more likely to suffer from harmonics, torsional stresses, and barrel whip.    When you shorten the barrel, the bullet has less "leverage" to cause such issues.   And as with the theme of the thread, the barrel will be thicker where you shortened it to - thus suffering less from the "belling"(lack of a better word).

[knight0334]

Does any of it really matter?  I would think the bullets path would be determined by the first few inches of rifling.  If the rifling loosened up or was cut off after that, I would think the only effect would be on velocity not accuracy if the barrel was true.

Pete

Its generally the last inch or two of barrel that determines things.    You can have a perfect freebore all the way to the last two inches of barrel, then have rifling to the muzzle.   So long as the freebore and bullet diameter is of a perfect match - that last 2 inches of rifling will provide all the accuracy that is needed.

Now, if you reverse that - an imperfect later bore will mess up whatever the perfect bore before provided.

[jeepmann1948]

In an unmentionable forum, I read a very interesting test report about something along the lines of this post.Mr XX  tested 5 factory Encore barrels and recorded the group size. The barrels were then shortened 5" and re-crowned.
 Every one of the barrels shot groups smaller at least 50% smaller. A very significant improvement using the same ammo that was used before.
 In my unlearned opinion I believe it accomplished this feat by several things:
1 - A new crown
2-  Removing the "bell"
3- Improving the Harmonics (also known as barrel whip)
 I built a 6mmBR bench gun using a straight (bull) no taper barrel. I got the barrel from a friend that could not make it shoot. I removed 6" from the muzzle end  ,re-crowned and installed it in a 700 Remington action I had. the first trip to the range using his recipe for the most accurate load it would shoot prior to circumcision  it shot a .250 group for ten shots at 100 yards. By the way the barrel is a Shilen match grade stainless.After the first match I shot there were no more  remarks about bringing a carbine to a bench match
 The small amount of velocity loss is far less important than the amount of accuracy gained. After all if you cannot hit the target how fast the bullet is going is not important.
 Another interesting fact is most pistol cartridges obtain maximun velocity in 16" barrels. the only thing gained from a longer barrel is the sight radius with open sights.
George

[thejanitor]

No disrespect intended but holy crap- I am in the company of some serious thinkers. After reading all this I am worried my under sized chamber - over sized bored 38-55 is the only normal one in the bunch...     Hope you all get to relax and have a happy new year. thejanitor

[quickdtoo]

Much to do about nothing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

Tim

[gcrank1]

GunCranks have been 'arguing' these concepts, and trying to prove them one way or t'uther for well over 100 years. Some previously 'accepted facts' have been disproven and others have popped up. Some apparent conclusions have been premature.
As said,'If it ain't broke, dont fix it'
'Dance with who ya brung'
And above all,'dont shoot for pink slips against GenDoc'

[petemi]

"Its generally the last inch or two of barrel that determines things.    You can have a perfect freebore all the way to the last two inches of barrel, then have rifling to the muzzle.   So long as the freebore and bullet diameter is of a perfect match - that last 2 inches of rifling will provide all the accuracy that is needed."

That's gotta be why the .45 Colt/.410 works so well.

Pete

[knight0334]

"Its generally the last inch or two of barrel that determines things.    You can have a perfect freebore all the way to the last two inches of barrel, then have rifling to the muzzle.   So long as the freebore and bullet diameter is of a perfect match - that last 2 inches of rifling will provide all the accuracy that is needed."

That's gotta be why the .45 Colt/.410 works so well.

Pete

That area in a .45/.410 in the cylinder/chamber isn't freebore.  It is just supported chamber.

A freebore is the the same diameter of the grooves, and matches the diameter of the projectile.   It is what Weatherby uses in their rifle barrels.

There is a technical difference between freebore and unsupported chamber/throat.