Replacing action pins with screws

[bucmeister]

Was thinking about having to drive the pins out to take the action apart for trigger work when the idea of how handy it would be to have pins with screw threads on them like my Browning Auto 5 shotgun has.  Then I got to wondering if anyone has ever thought about it or gone to the next step of trying it.

Seems like it could be done quite simply by the factory, but that would make way to much sense, but it sure would simplify the process.

[quickdtoo]

Sure, increase the production cost some more and they'll cost as much as the Browning!    No thanks, they work just fine the way they are, a trigger job takes maybe 30 minutes at most usually, removing the pins takes a minute or two. 

Tim

[bucmeister]

Tim,

Understand that, however it is the preparing to do it the first time that is slowing me down.  Trying to make the jig correctly to try and minimize the potential for skipping the punch off of the pins is a bit time consuming, at least for me (think I have heard the term "anal retentive" used to describe my approach to such projects).  Then there is the slave pin but that would be needed even if it were screws.

Just thinking out loud so to speak.

[quickdtoo]

The slave pin is easy, one of mine is a piece of 3/16" wood dowel, works just as good as the metal ones.  The slave pin and hammer wedge are essential for easy reassembly, and really easy to make.  The jig and pin template aren't necessary with cup point punches, even a nail set will work to break the pins loose, then a regular pin punch to remove em the rest of the way once the head of the pin is below the frame.

Tim

[LaOtto222]

I use a large nail punch to start the pin out and a drift pin for the rest of the way. I suspend the action between two scrap pieces of 2 X 4 so the pins have a place to drift to. I have used a piece of solder for a slave pin, but using a rounded end Allen wrench from the back side works too. I just put the trigger group into place and work the Allen wrench in from the back side all the way through. I then push it back out with the action pin from the correct side. It is a lot easier than it sounds like. Read the instructions until you know them front to back and back to front, gather your "tools" and go to work. It took me 4 hours to do the first one and about 30 minutes to do the last one I did. The first time took so long because I failed to pull back the trigger while I was putting the trigger group into the action I kept telling myself that it came out, it has to go back in, over and over, otherwise I would have put in with a hammer, with results that were not so satisfying.

Good Luck and Good Shooting 

[gcrank1]

Ive slipped a empty 22LR case over the appropriate sized punch to get the pins started, the brass doesnt skate like steel on steel does, and doesnt leave but a brass spot that polishes off easy.
Ive also done these on my lap in my easy chair in the living room with a good Western on, but the barrel off.
KISS, man, KISS........

[Spanky]

I've done trigger jobs on 2 of my Handi's... it was very simple. I just dropped them off at the gunsmith and picked them up when they were done. Simple.
 
 
 
Spanky

[bucmeister]

Guys, Thank you for the tips.  Nail punches I have and an empty 22 cartridge I can easily create.  Had thought about a wooden dowel pin but thought it might be too soft, will go with that for the time being.   Will get the hammer wedge cut before jumping into the task.

Guess I was trying to make it more complicated than necessary.

Thanks again to all of you for your input.  It is greatly appreciated.

[quickdtoo]

Jest giterdone! 

Tim

[Catshooter45]

It could certainly be done by H&R.  Setting up for it though would be quite expensive.  It may look simple to someone who has no idea what all is involved, but trust me, it ain't as easy as one might think. 
 
I could do it, I have the skills & tools & machinery.  Thus I can appriciate how much work is involved.  But if you have to ask how it would be done, brother, you might want to attempt something a bit easier for a first step. 
 
Would make for a cool action though, no doubt about it.
 
 
Cat

[bucmeister]

Well, I sure as the devil got more practice than I wanted at one time working with the pins and trigger assembly last night and this morning.  One thing I'm willing to bet on is that the factory and service centers have a press or arbor setup to push the pins in and out due to the lack of flat spots from hammers and punches though I did not reset the pins until the job was finished so only had to pound them out once as well, but they did take a few stout strikes with the hammer.

Turned out the replacement striker was a bit shorter overall than the original and would not fire a primer no matter how quickly I jerked the trigger so went back with the original, which in spite of being cut at an angle on top is longer on the side striking the firing pin.  After that I tried to lengthen the trigger extension by doing some cold forging with a hammer and managed to get some improvement in the timing, but it still needs more work because to get it to fire I have to concentrate on giving the trigger a strong pull with good follow though.  May end up trying to increase the trigger pull weight by putting in a new trigger after the last primitive weapons season ends the last of January.   Wish they made an over sized extension that you could file and stone to fit. 

[OldSchoolRanger]

Ive slipped a empty 22LR case over the appropriate sized punch to get the pins started, the brass doesnt skate like steel on steel does, and doesnt leave but a brass spot that polishes off easy.
Ive also done these on my lap in my easy chair in the living room with a good Western on, but the barrel off.
KISS, man, KISS........

gcrank - Great hint!  A word of advice, when doing those on your lap in the easy chair, don't miss with the hammer.  It might hurt a bit.

I've done trigger jobs on 2 of my Handi's... it was very simple. I just dropped them off at the gunsmith and picked them up when they were done. Simple.
 
 
Spanky

Yeah! That's even simpler.   

bucmeister - Remember the first time is the hardest, it's all downhill after that! (Don't take that pun about downhill, the wrong way).

[gcrank1]

Buc, where did you get the 'new' T-bar from, it sounds like the old stock 'wrong one'.
You have the right idea about not setting the pins until done, and a brass 'cupped' punch will avoid marring the heads.
If the striker has too much chamfer on the f-pin side it'll give ya fits. I didnt get to doing this, my replacement came, but a bit of weld to square it up and then put only enough chamfer on to get it to slide past the f-pin should work. You might want to just build that too short one up and re-engineer it if they wont refund it.
The factory does not spend much time fitting these actions, and most work, but they have bins of bits too. Remember, a finely fitted t-extension with perfect timing still will likely have issues if the striker is too short or too heavily chamfered.

[bucmeister]

gcrank1,

I am going to have see about getting some of those cupped brass punches, Tim had also mentioned cupped punches earlier.  Another thing I am looking for is transfer punches like another person had used in order to mark an aluminum plate for holes to then act as a jig to check alignments.  While not the actual action it would be close enough to let one check general clearances.

The t-bar came from Numrich, the item listed as "replacement" lifter/striker assembly.  It is squared off on the top profile whereas the one in the gun, which was built in late 2011 according to what the factory told me based on the serial number, has an angled slope back towards the hammer side.  I was hoping the full profile would magically fix my issues and suspect if it were not for the angled relief cut on the firing pin I believe either would work fine as it was even holding the trigger back and releasing the hammer would not cause the firing pin to extend.

Ultimately, I suspect I will do like Jim Flinchbaugh and make a trigger extension that will start a bit over sized then using the jig it will be worked down to a bare max size that will  just barely allow the lifter to drop when the trigger is released rather than the excessive clearances the factory units have.  Hopefully this will work out because I like the very light trigger pull the factory delivered it is just that they did not get the timing close enough to prevent very regular ftf's without trigger jerks to try and get the extension in place.

What did you weld your t-bar with?  Seems I had read one thread wherein the poster said he tried but the metal just melted out or something like that.  If I were real good with a tig or something like that I would add to the extension, add to the t-bar and fill in some of the undercut on the f-pin.  I found a picture of the f-pin on Brownell's site and one of the additional views shows it in a profile that demonstrates the angled cut that I suspect adds immensely to the problem.  Would be interesting to be able to talk to some H&R engineers to ask why it was done the way it is.  For that matter I would like find out why they don't cause the trigger motion during the cocking of the hammer to cause enough movement of the trigger and extension to place the tip of the extension in position to block the fall of the striker lifter before the trigger is squeezed completely eliminating the problem.

[gcrank1]

Of course, the original works had no Striker/Lifter or Trigger Extension is is about as basic and reliable as can be; had a dbl. leg mainspring too. You can go to all that work on those 'extra' bits if you want, and like the challenge.......... .
The Striker may be a sintered metal part, so welding may melt it! Ive brazed sintered parts before, so the temp being lower than welding (molten) must have saved me. Silver solder would work then too.

[quickdtoo]

An alternative to the t-bar is eliminate it and install an old style hammer and double coil spring, it's discussed in one of the low profile hammer links in the FAQs, you just have to remember to pull the hammer back to half-cock since it won't rebound leaving the firing pin extended thru the breech face which can be detrimental to the firing pin when opening and closing the action, that's discussed too.

I got my transfer punch set from LMS, they sell good stuff. 

Tim

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2031

[bucmeister]

Of course, the original works had no Striker/Lifter or Trigger Extension is is about as basic and reliable as can be; had a dbl. leg mainspring too. You can go to all that work on those 'extra' bits if you want, and like the challenge.......... .
The Striker may be a sintered metal part, so welding may melt it! Ive brazed sintered parts before, so the temp being lower than welding (molten) must have saved me. Silver solder would work then too.

Believe me I have thought about the "original" set up that did not have the "extra" bits as it would greatly solve my issue and put this all crap to rest.  Have not completely rule that solution out either.  In my mind there just is no excuse for this problem.   I truly believe it could be engineered out by thinking people with the correct machinery in short order.  The first thing to try that comes to my mind would be to enlarge the lobe on the hammer that has the sear notch on it in such a way that the trigger would end up closer to the back of the guard when the hammer was cocked and the sear locked which would tilt the extension further forward toward the lifter thereby not needing a lot of movement in the trigger when fired to get under the lifter.  Once the hammer dropped the trigger would travel back to the current neutral "fired" "safe" location allowing the lifter to drop as it should.   

[bucmeister]

Tim, 

Thanks for the link.  Getting this to work flawlessly is fast becoming a quest so certain tools will be needed.